how to avoid 2.5 yr old bedtime hysterics

[scribegirl]

our 2.5 yr old DD has always been a champion sleeper and we have really had zero sleep issues with her except for a few occasional blips of SA when she was 9 months and during her transition to a BGB before she turned 2 yrs. she has been great at putting herself to sleep independently and has been on 12 hr days for as long as i can remember.

now she's in the process of dropping her nap, i think. on days when she doesn't nap (like yesterday), she's in bed by 7 pm and gets up around 7:30 am, but is a bear the last hour of the day. days that i manage to squeeze in a nap and wake her at 1 hr (like tonight) so is shrieking and crying and running to the door until at least 9 pm. about 1 month ago she started asking to have the door open when she sleeps, then she started complaining about being scared of monsters (we got her a night light). on these days she also has NW with crying and needs to be put back to bed, and often EW around 6 am..... so i'm convinced she needs her rest but am not sure how to avoid these hysterics.

generally we have a 30 min wind down involving stories, teeth brushing, lulluby and then it all starts to go haywire. we walk out and she starts jumping out of the bed, running to the door, crying to have her back tickled. have tried WI/WO but inevitably i resort to closing the door if i've put her back to bed more than 5 times (after warning her that the door will close). she then freaks out even more by the door and i convince her that we'll leave the door half way open if she gets back into bed.... she is then completely exhausted as this has often gone on for more than 1 hr, so she falls asleep.

is this all a sign that she's ready to drop her nap completely? i've tried 45 min naps and 30 min naps (though not in the last week) and she seems to wake up happy when i rouse her. i might also add that we have a new baby in the house, a 3 month old DS.... so i'm wondering if this is all part of some new SA on DD's part.

we used to have such a lovely routine with goodnight kisses and smiles but now it seems like a disaster.

[deb]

Josie was just shy of 2-1/2 when we had to STOP her napping just so she'd go to sleep before 10:30PM! She just wasn't sleepy after a nap. We did "Quiet Time," where she had some time after lunch to play quietly in her room, and that worked well. I'd put on a CD, like one of her Music Together CD's (about an hour each, a bit less), and that was the length of my mid-day break.

Sometimes she'd nap anyway, falling asleep after half an hour with a book or toy in her hands, and we'd try to keep the nap short and hope for the best at bedtime, but by and large, that was the end of naptime. (BUT the beginning of Quiet Time!

[LizzieN]

Hey,
I'm not sure, what I find with our 6yo, even back then, she still needed a good long nap during the day quite frequently....Not every day.

Have you tried letting her have a couple of hours on the day when she naps and then seeing what your night is like?  It may mean a slightly later bed time (nothing too late though) on those days, but she may just need a catch up nap once a week??

I am no expert at all, it sounds like a combination of things and I would imagine some of it is attention seeking because of your new LO....Hope it gets better soon

Hugs
Lizzie

[scribegirl]

thanks for the responses.... i think i'll try the "quiet time" with some music loaded onto an iPod shuffle hooked up to speakers (ie. something she can't break easily!)

what i've noticed is she really functions best on 12 hrs of total sleep.... so whether it's 1 hr nap during the day and 11 hrs overnight, it always seems to be redistributed as such. last night, after the tantrums, hysterics and trauma, she slept at 9:30 pm and was up at 7 am with a 1 hr nap so that's actually a bit short of her ideal.

do i bite the bullet and keep her from napping (but insist upon quiet time) and just ride it out with an earlier bedtime until she can really do the long days?

any tips on the night fears and constant requests (door open, back tickle, etc) that push bedtime later on nap days?

[LizzieN]

I think that the requests are probably more attention seeking than anything else, but you know your LO...if you think they are genuine fears perhaps she needs a little more help at sleep time, perhaps more one on one time prior to bed, a longer wind down in the evening.  I would go with the door open request if that works ok with you (our 6yo also likes the door open because she likes some light and she likes to hear us I think as she goes to sleep)....

As to the jumping out of bed and shrieking, I would be quite firm about the screaming...I don't believe in screaming unless there is danger (we grew up on a farm and my mum was very firm about that, so that's where that one comes from - just a heads up, may not be as vital in your situation)...but it can't be helping your other LO sleep!!!

The other thing I am wondering about the up out of bed for hours, have you tried ignoring the behaviour, don't speak to her if she hops back up until she really genuinely gets upset at which point you just say, honey it's time for bed are you ready to go back to bed?  If she says no, tell her that mummy and daddy don't play after bed time and continue about your business??? I just wonder if she is making it into a bit of a game??? 

Definately wouldn't do the back tickle thing, had to talk to my DH about that with DD (about 4yo) 'cause it was getting ridiculous...she really was using it as an excuse to stay up talking for longer.  I just said to DH, bed time is not talking time, not playing time...that's what the day time is for and he realised just how much time he was spending in there (thankfully 'cause it even sounded mean to me when I was saying it, but you don't want that one continuing) and that it was getting worse. 

I'm not saying don't comfort if they really can't sleep... sometimes our DD can't and I get her up, let her watch say 10 minutes of her DVD quietly a drink of water and then pop her back to bed with another story if I think it's appropriate...but I only allow that if I know she has tried and she is getting upset.

Good luck sweetie, not trying to push my oppinion we all parent differently so if you don't agree with the above, totally fine...I can be a bit of a stubborn parent (sometimes too much) and sometimes I don't think laterally when faced with a problem, but I hope some of it helps

Hugs
Lizzie

[deb]

My take on the possible attention-seeking is a bit different, but hey, that's OK! Sorry, watching House as I type, so bear with my possibly disjointed typing. LOL

If your DD needs some extra attention with the new baby, then I would say that for now, I'd go ahead and give it to her. BUT - I would do it during the day, WELL before bedtime. She may need her "Mommy Cup" filled for reassurance or even "just because." You can still give her lots of attention to fill that need, but to get bedtime back, you might need to adjust how and when you give it to her.

About the back tickles, Josie and Natalie both LOVE LOVE LOVE their bedtime massages. When Josie had just turned three, I remember her asking us to "pet" her back, meaning just stroke it, long strokes like you might pet a cat. Sometimes she wanted her hair stroked. It helped wind her down.  Both girls now get full-body massages at bedtime every night - not hour-long ones, mind you, but in 5-7 minutes we get the major muscles, gently compress the joints, and sometimes one or the other still likes having her back or hair stroked to help her sleep. That's not out of line, so we go for it; usually takes 5 minutes tops. Tickles, no, but there are alternatives.

Anything in there helpful?

[Sarahboosmom]

Hi there!  It might really help us all out if you could tell us what type of LO yours is?  Ex. I have a spirited toddler, so there are some things she's good at, other things that would freak her out etc.  There are things that would be just fine for my DD being spirited, but for your LO it might not be the correct response. 

Example Deb talks about long massages, but for my LO that would irritate her and get her more stimulated, but it works well for her girls.

Just from reading your post and taking it at face value, I think your LO is overtired.  The monsters, screams and scared reactions definately sounds like OT.  I personally would not bite the bullet and pull no naps.  I just went through about 5 months of nap struggles and we are back to napping every day (she's 2 yr 7 mo old). 

Usually when my DD has a behaivor that is 'all of a sudden' I can pinpoint it to either OT or ear infection.  Mostly OT, as a result of nap resistance or some other factor (stuffed nose, busy vacation etc).  Since you mentioned nap struggles I would lean to OT as the factor. 

For the monsters, have you tried 'monster spray'?  Get a bottle of Febreeze and cover it with a new label with your writing for Monster Spray.  Then you can spray the monsters away.  That might help you if you are in the middle of the issue.  But for prevention I would try to get that nap back.

Can you post your LO's temperment and your daily schedule for us?

[scribegirl]

Thanks ladies for all the advice and brainstorming! I had some success yesterday getting DD down for a 30 min nap using some quiet music, and then got her asleep by 8:30 pm using the music again.

DD is a textbook/spirited toddler... she is really happy and outgoing but when she gets OT she really gets almost inconsolable. When I try to calm her down once she's wound up she often swats my hand away (ie. doesn't want to be touched).... but I guess the idea with a massage is to get her relaxed before she gets wound up.

Her schedule yesterday was:
7:30 am wake up
8:30 am preschool (Mon thru Fri)
1 pm lunch
1:30-2 pm wind down for nap
2:30 pm nap
3 pm wake from nap (I have to wake her)
6 pm dinner
7 pm bedtime ritual (sometimes with a bath, other times without if she's really tired)
7:30 pm bed
8:30 pm asleep

She woke before 7 am cranky and fussy so I wonder if she still needs more sleep. Like I said previously, her ideal is 12 hrs. Since starting preschool she does better with longer A time in the morning and a nap a bit later on in the day.

Sarah: That's so funny about the 'monster spray'. I did precisely that, instead it was vanilla essential oil and water in an old hairspray bottle. She sleeps with it clutched in her hand. I also took her shopping for a nightlight that she picked out herself.

Lizzie: It's not so much that she shrieks when she gets out of bed but she's visibly upset and crying/screaming/wailing loudly. We have told her that if she gets off the bed her door will close and she jumps down to run to the door crying, the gets walked back to bed. I'll try not tickling her back, although it sometimes calm her down.... maybe will try just tickle once then "night night" and walk out. My DH has been putting DD down consistently since our DS was born in Jan so he's been the one in charge of her bedtime routine almost exclusively and she REALLY knows how to push his buttons. Will cry/scream "daddy, daddy, daddy over and over again, and often if I intervene she gets more upset and cries for daddy (I try not to give in or talk.... just shhhh and into bed). He can't spend more time with her to fill her "daddy cup" because he works.

Should we be aiming for a longer nap or try the 30 min for a few days? I noticed when I woke her yesterday she was cranky whereas last week I could get her up at 45 min to 30 min and she would be happy. So definitely OT at the moment.

What do people think of using "threats" to keep her in bed? ie. If you get off the bed 1) we'll close the door b) the big girl music will have to go..... we have success with it but I don't know if it's winding her up further.

[deb]

If she's Spirited, I'd bet a year's salary (if I got one LOL) that threats will only add to the tension. You might try talking to her out of the moment, like during the day, and just tell her that you need her help to stay in bed/her room once it's bedtime and you don't WANT to close the door but you don't know any other way to help her stay in her room. You might be surprised what she'd come up with - Josie often surprised me with ideas of her own, and/or once she understood the problem in a more intellectual out-of-the-moment step-back way, she complied more readily, when it wasn't a battle, a her-vs-us scenario.

We actually make bedtime CD's for our girls; in fact, they help us pick the music, and each girl has a CD player in her room with her CD's. DH likes to do this; he's the iTunes guy, loves to play with the different features on there, and they like snuggling with him in his lap and helping pick tunes.

It does sound like she's waking cranky. That was why we had to get Josie off naps, actually: when she napped, her bedtime ended up so late that she woke up already tired and the day never got any better, PLUS if she napped, the cycle would repeat day after day.  I did sometimes have some success getting her to at least lay down in bed for a while longer sometimes if I stayed with her, and once in a while she'd fall back asleep if it was dark enough, and/or if we put the sleepy tunes back on.

Is your DH at home in the morning when she's awake before he goes to work, or does he get home in time to give her a chunk of Daddy-time before supper? Mine has to leave early, but he USUALLY (and I use that term loosely, since we live in a horrible-traffic area ) gets home in time to play with the girls - but Josie usually wakes before he leaves so they at least get to touch base before he goes. Can you guys have a designated phone-call-to-Daddy time during the day?

BTW, we also have a rule here that after supper/6PM we wind things down. After supper is NOT wrestle-with-Daddy time, but before supper is fair game. (We suspend this rule on weekends or if there was a nap, like if we had a long drive and one or both slept in the car and they NEED to blow off steam.)

Any chance DH can try putting down DS? We generally try to alternate nights with the girls, although there are nights where one parent does both bedtimes now.

Just a few thoughts.

[clh]

Hi!  Was wondering if your tickle time gets your dd wound up or if it helps her wind down.  If it helps her calm, could you just work that into the routine so that you can do it (planned for it) & then tell her you've already done that part if she asks again?  Similar with other frequent requests:  You've already had a drink, We've already sprayed for monsters, etc.  Also, would it help if you gave her a choice about the door, open or closed?  Even if she chooses the same every night, it's still some input into what her environment is like.  Sorry if that's not helpful.  Just a few thoughts off the top of my head (from the mom of another spirited).

[scribegirl]

Thank you for the additional ideas. Yes, you are absolutely right.... the threats make DD even madder but reasoning with her on neutral ground (ie. when she's rested and calm) does seem to work generally. I will try bringing this up today! I like the idea of getting her to choose about the door.... when she's crying she will often say, "no, I want the door open THIS much" and run over and open it a *smidgen* more, I guess just to have had the choice be hers.

DH is actually the one who gets DD up in the morning, fed breakfast and off to preschool every morning.... so she definitely gets a good chunk of daddy time. One thing that happens, though, is if it's an EW he will get up with her, go downstairs and turn on the Disney channel (and fall back asleep!) so sometimes daddy time is with him zzzzzing on the couch. I have brought up to him that morning time is when DD is generally at her best and perkiest so it's nice to maximize their time.... he says TV helps keep her out of his way when he's fixing her breakfast (he's not a child multitasker!)

I will continue to offer her the "quiet time" during the day with the music and if she falls asleep like yesterday, be sure to wake her after 30 min... I never know if I need to give her more time if she's OT to counteract the OT-ness or just keep it at 30 min and try for calm, early bed???

I have also been thinking about getting DH to put down DS after I give him his last feed but the baby has had his own sleep issues and only recently has been able to go to sleep independently if well rested (he is also really spirited). He was OT for 2 weeks and NW up to 6 times. I have been extra nervous about turning over the reigns in case of getting back on that OT route with him.... So suffice it to say with two spirited LOs in the house we need a lot of stamina between the two of us!

[deb]

...suffice it to say with two spirited LOs in the house we need a lot of stamina between the two of us!

Oh, yeah.... tell me about it!

You can come chat with other parents of Spiriteds here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=149916.0

[scribegirl]

Well so far so good. both kids asleep and counting..... i went over with DD how I didn't want to close her door at nap/bedtime so I needed her help staying in bed. As she often does, she just said, "yes mom" and didn't really make a big deal so I wasn't sure if she was really listening at all.

But low and behold after lunch, we went up, got her ready, read a few books, sang a song and put on her "big girl music". I let her choose how wide she wanted to leave the door (all the way "so people can see me when I sleep" )I rubbed her back for a few seconds and then left. She howled "mom rub my back!" but I ignored her. And now she's asleep. Will wake her at 45 min today so she gets a bit of extra rest.

DH has also agreed to attempt putting our very spirited 3.5 month old DS down tonight. He's finally learning how to put himself to sleep after finding his fingers so if I can just keep him napping pretty good then he should not have too much trouble at night..... then I can try to reinsert myself into DD's nighttime ritual.

I think much of this has come up because she misses her routine with me    Try as I might, it's tough to get as much one-on-one with her as we used to have and now I think it's finally sinking in that her little bro is here to stay. For good!

[scribegirl]

I didn't end up putting DD to bed mainly because DS didn't take his final nap and I really wanted him to be rested before turning the reigns over to DH for the first time in ages. So I got DS down and DH is still attempting with DD.... going on 1 hr.

He is being diligent and not talking to her, just putting her back in her bed and walking out, but she comes out looking for him wailing, "daaaaddy, daaaaaddy, daaaaaaaddddy". Do we just ignore her and wait for her to go back to her room herself?

[We Three]

If it were me, I'd keep walking her back. Just my opinion, but ignoring doesn't sit right with me. By putting her back, you accomplish 2 things...#1, you hear her, you love her, you will always be there when she needs you.  And #2, it is time to go to sleep, and mo matter what, that is what is going to happen.  Ignoring, to me, feels the same as CIO when you have little ones. You can be responsive and yet still stick to your guns.

Have you thought of a baby gate on the door? Door could be completely open, but yet she wouldn't be able to get out? When she is calling to daddy...is she in her room in her bed? Or is she in the hall or somewhere else?