BabyWhispererForums.com
ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: Site Admin Team on September 27, 2007, 12:17:11 pm
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Welcome to our spirited support thread for babies. Please jump right in and introduce yourself. We hope you'll enjoy discussing the ups and downs of raising spirited babies with other babywhisperer members. In order to keep this thread on topic, please limit your conversation here to that which pertains to raising spiriteds. Kimberly will be overseeing this thread to make sure it stays on topic and guide members to post issues outside the scope of this thread on our other forums. When this thread grows too long to manage, another will be started in its place. Happy chatting! :)
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Hi all...I'll start.
I'm Michelle and my son Ben is 3.5months and spirited.
I am really glad you have managed to open this site because I really think spirited babies are a breed unto themselves. Books could (and have been) written for them alone. Nothing prepared me for a spirited as my first baby and to be honest the first 3 months have been hell. It is still very hard but the initial shock has worn off. I don't know what I would have done without the bw books and forum. I wanted to write more on the other thread and when I saw it was going to be closed , my heart sank. But here we have another chance!
Anyway, enough chit chat. I hope I can meet some of you mums of spirited LO's and you can help me out. I will post again soon with details about our 'routine' ;) and problems etc....
Lorna (Lawnseed) are you going to be joining this thread too?? I hope so because I have read a lot of your advice and I think it is great!
Looking forward to meeting you all
Michelle
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Hello, I'm Katt and mum to the extremely spirited Leorah who will be one in a week today :) Wow we have had some ups and downs in the past year that only another mum of a spirited could understand but I also see an intelligent, curious and very fearless little person amazing me everyday ;) Sleep has to be the biggest challenge we have had and I am saying that on a day of two 30 minute naps ::) I'm sick of these early bedtimes she has to have, it's like a vicious circle because she'll then sleep 13 hours and won't nap enough in the day again. Looking forward to getting to know all of you that will be on thios board and hope we can support and advise each other :-*
I have to go and see to my little screamer now ;D
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Hello - my name is Lorna :)
I have two spirited LOs, but as this is the baby thread, I shall only introduce Eden. She is 6 months old and a delight as I have been doing BW since day 1 (not always easy, but definitely worth it!) Main reason for suspecting Eden is spirited is her inability to shut her eyes unless she's in pitch black, and her ability to just keep going through extreme exhaustion if she's not in bed!!
Current issue is fighting the cat-nap and OT NWings if she has a day where naps don't happen well (If I miss her window because I'm trying to escape the house!)
Looking forward to meeting you all!
(and thanks Michelle - I feel loved!!!)
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Oh is it only a thread for babies? I guess Leorah is a toddler now but I could still sure do with some support and perhaps mums of spirited toddlers/older kids can offer advice and relate experiences :)
Lorna do you think that the spiritedness is genetic? The reason I ask is that my family (mum, dad etc) tell me Leorah is exactly how I was and they think it's hilarious that I am having payback time with my half pint handful lol!!
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There is a spirited thread in the preschooler forum for the older spiriteds.
:)
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Hi everyone,
I've just read "Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" and I was thrilled to read the description of spirited babies -- finally, someone understands my Violet! As you can guess, we're having some sleep issues (night waking and short naps, specifically). We're going to start working on EASY as soon as my husband reads the relevant parts of the book, so that we're on the same page.
I'll be back with tons of questions once we start. In the meantime, I'm curious about the specific adaptations you all have made in your EASY routines to accommodate your spirited tykes. From reading other posts, it sounds like I'll need to do longer transitions into nap and bedtime?
Glad to find you all here!
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just thought i would jump in while you are still on page 1. for anyone new to BW or not aware of the recent changes, all the old spirited info was archived. here is a link to it for you to read through in your "spare" time.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62650.0
all of the ladies in the early tens of pages on that thread are now showing up on the preschoolers and beyond spirited cihildren thread, but you can see we all survived and so did our babies ;) as your lo get older feel free to look over there to see what is coming up (especially as your spirited babies become verbal - whoa can they negotiate and talk and talk and talk ;D)
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Hi all :) - thanks for the link Debra
Skatty - i think it probably is genetic as are many character traits! I think I'm going to be blaming my husband, but my mum tells me I was a nightmare to get to sleep, so maybe twas I, too ;)
Violetmum - So glad you've found BW!! It's great! How old is Violet? I've found that with Eden I needed a longer transition when she was younger, but as she's got used to it it's actually got shorter and shorter. Now, I spot her tired signs, hold her close and rock while I'm still downstairs for about 2 mins, pop upstairs, switch the light off (PITCH black even in day time!) hold her for another 30secs and she gets so annoyed with me interfering in her drifting off to sleep that she pushes me away and I have to leave her to it It took a LONG time to get to that stage, though, or it felt it :) I would say another key is consistency though - decide on the routine pre nap/sleep and stick to it. That really seemed to help me as I was trying to figure out what she wanted and kept changing things, which really made her mad when she was around 2 months old! Let us know how you get on!
Lornax
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I am simply losing my mind today. My DD is 4 months old, and on days like today, moments like now, I can't enjoy her because I'm so frustrated (and angry).
I've been trying to do this BW EASY thing since about 3-4 weeks. I feel like giving up. We got through the screaming before naps phase, but that's about it. I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. I felt like, maybe, we were making progress about a week ago when she took a total of four naps (all week) that were over an hour. This week we've had almost exclusively 30 minute naps, with 20 minute naps thrown in for good measure, with a sprinkling of 45 mins.
I should be thankful, I know, that she sleeps pretty well at night. But, that said, our crappy naps are even affecting that now, since I believe being tired while eating is partly why she's been waking at night to feed lately (there's also been a growth spurt).
I feel part of my frustration is BW, with it's teachings that babies need to take these long naps. I feel, every day, that we're somehow failing, not getting things "right." Sometimes I wish I'd never started any program and "accidental parent"ed my way through like many of my friend. Maybe I would feel saner right now.
That said, I really, really appreciate this wonderful, supportive online community of women. Reading the posts encourages me to stick with a little longer...but I really thought it would be sorted by now. And sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice in not following Babywise (which is a CIO plan), since friend who've used it have saner households and their kids seem just fine. (I really don't want to use CIO, though.)
I have to go attend to little Miss.
I wish I could get past this so motherhood could be more of a joy, so that when people ask, "How is it?" I can say, "great" instead of "hard."
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Hi Ladies. Some of you may know me from this sight. I joined when DD was 2 weeks old and I was pulling my hair out trying to figure her out. DD is now 2 yeears old, and she was a very spirited baby, now she is a spirited toddler. She is an Angel/Spirited now, she used to be Spirited/Angel. Months of work changed that.
You can do it. :)
Don't give up. Its a lot of hard work thats true, but it's really worth the effort.
Key things to remember when you have a spirited baby
1) its not your fault Many mom's think its their fault, they're spirited, or to much caffine during pregnancy, or breastfeeding. Its not true. Your LO's temperment is not due to anything you did or didn't do.
2) its not their fault They're not trying to be difficult, and in fact with time and patients from parents it can get easier. Spirited LO's just need a little more attention then some.
3) More time and energy is spent, and its easy to get discuraged. It takes a lot of time but when you see the result (and you will see them) its worth it.
4) Never give up
5) Spirited LO's are harder to read, but once you can things get easier.
I vividly remember DD at her worst and it was a challenge everyday. Somedays I questioned if I could really do it. EASY took a long time to sort out since her tired signs were very hard to read. It was about 4 months before things started to fall into place. Thats when I finally could really read her. Things got easier as time passed, though it was still a battle at times. Still is at times.
DD is now more Angel then spirited because I have learned to read her better, I can often get to her before a blow out occurs. I know that her spirited side is just under the serface, and its often rears its head, but now I know how to handle it.
You too will all learn how to read your baby. Its hard, and it takes time, and a lot of practice. Rules need to be bent at times. PU/PD for example is not a good idea for spirited LO's, but you can still do pat/shh, if that gets to stimulating then there's always a hand on the back. Things like music boxes, mobiles and swings need to be avoided more for Spirited LO's as they can easily get overstimulated. We took DD's crib mobile away at 3 months because it stimulated her to much.
Every single one of you can and will do this. Thats what this group is for. To help you, and when your LO is older there is always the spirited toddler forum aswell.
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Thanks, Kimberly, about the note on caffeine. I was trying to cut it out completely, thinking it might calm Violet's jittery moods a little bit. It didn't seem to be changing anything, and I was dying!!! That one cup of coffee really saves me. You mentioned that PU/PD isn't a good idea with Spirited babies? Violet's 4-1/2 months old, and we're pretty sure the shush-pat isn't going to cut it. But, should we not try the PU/PD???
I was really interested to read that your LO is an Angel-Spirited baby. From the BW quiz, I thought Violet showed some Angel signs (especially in her socialization), but I thought it must have just been wishful thinking!
Thanks, everyone. I'm so glad I found you!!! We're setting the stage to start in on EASY this week. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Oh hannahbanana....I could have almost written your most myself. My heart goes out to you. :'(
Honestly, I can't yet say this motherhood thing is a good idea. If anyone had really warned me how it was going to be I would have never fallen pregnant. Sometimes I feel so bitter and sad it consumes me...but it is not the time or place to go into the impact the last 4 months have had on my mental health.
I hope you ladies with more experience and who have lived to tell the tale can help us out.
Thank you for the motivation Kimberly! :-*
When I am honest.....things have progressed but NOT gotten easier. Everyday is still a fight and I don't know when or if it will EVER be easier....different yes, but easier.....I am not holding out much hope.
I think BW is a fantastic philosophy and has some great points. I have seen it work with 3 of my friends babies and they are now 1 and a half and 2 years old, BUT.........they are angel babies. That is a lot of the problem. I feel the spirited baby and the experiences of the parents of spirited babies are something the other types of personalities can not understand. Don't get me wrong....I am not saying it is not a challenge and very difficult for ALL mothers with new babies but there is only limited gain in me talking to my friends with Angel babies or posting on the naps board when 5 people with textbook babies offer advice. Spirited babies just don't do 'what the book says' so easily and we mothers are ESPECIALLY challenged. There should be a book just for us! Please correct me if you think I am out of line!
Anyway, pretty much EVERYTHING is an issue with us. I do manage to stick to a EASAE or EASAS plan but I can't give timings because everyday is different.
The best thing I thinkl is if I just talk through what a 'typical' day sort of looks like in BLOG form. I hope no one minds reading it like this. I would REALLY APPRECIATE any advice on what I could do differently or where to go from here. I am just hoping and praying that things imrove from now till 6 months.
Ben (my LO) wakes at between 6 or 7am( or at least whenever I am aware he is awake) . When he starts whining for me after a few minutes I go in pull up the blinds say good morning smile and he coos at me then I go out have a drink of water, go to the lo etc...and go and get him after 5 minutes.
Then we either feed straight away or change him out of his PJ's depending on wether he needs changing straight away and how long it has been since he has been fed in the night.
Eating is a huge issue. I have a fast letdown and he is an efficient drinker. It is usually over in 5 minutes but sometimes can take 15 and sometimes will hardly drink at all from being so tired or distracted. (yes I have tried covering with blanket to reproduce night conditions, feeding lying etc.. to no avail) When this happens I need to find a moment to pump out the feed otherwise my supply comes into problems later in the day or the next day. If I feel he has not had a good feed for some hours I give the ebm in a bottle which he takes easier than the breast as it requires less concentration and work.
After 'breakfast' I put him in his chair with a hanging toy and if he has had a good sleep he is fine alone for about 20 minutes. Then when he gets fussy I bring him into another room with me to change the scene. (normally a different activity chair...he has 2) That's fine for a while. Then I hold him a bit. Finally at around the 1.15 mark (or later when he has had a good nights sleep) I take him into his room, sometimes diaper change, pull down the blind, read a book for 2 or 3 minutes and then swaddle him on the changing table. At this point he cries (if not before). When he was younger I thought it was because he didn't want to sleep. Now I know 99 per cent of the time he is just fighting it or is just frustrated knowing he has to sleep. After this I hold him swaddled for a few seconds then put him down and sh/pat. This NORMALLY always works now so I guess I should acknowledge progress there. Befoer it was always a question as to wether he would fall asleep at all.
I am aiming for a 2 hour nap in the morning (around 9am) and one in the afternoon. It has happened about 2 times till now but if he sleeps for 2 hours...great but normally it is 45 mins and on a really bad day....20 mins :'(
I know he is probably still a little to young for a 2 hour awake time in the morning, midday, and late afternoon before bed but I just feel we have missed the boat on the whole shorter awake time and many 1 1/2 hour sleeps a day. It never worked for us so I may as well be aiming for the next step (4-6 months) and we have had more sucess with it anyway. Like you said Lorna...you just have to at some stage decide what it is going to be and try to 'train' them to stick to it.
But anyway, the reality is normall a short nap, up an hour to an hour and a half before the next feed is due (3.5 EASY...he really will niot drink before then....soemtimes even longer) so he has more activity time and then I usually end up feeding him early ( no longer than an hour earlier but still :-\ ).
Then the cycle starts again. As soon as he starts getting fussy, I try to put him to bed.
I am still trying to ge tthe hang of this overtired/overstimualtion thing. I tried to go by the baby whisper awake times but just found not every awake time was the same. I would spend up to an hour and a half trying to get him to sleep and we get the a quicker result now if I wait a bit longer. He still cries and won't go down without a fight but if he is really ready for sleep he will go to sleep quicker. Sometimes I do get it wrong though and he is very overtired but generally now I think I am better at knowing considering he has very few tired signs.
So the day goes on like that. If it all goes pear shaped, there are 2 things I always try to make sure: He has another feed before bathtime routine (despite when the las feed was) and that he doesn't have more than a 2 hour awake time before bed. If I can't get him to nap in the mid to late afternoon, he is really overtired and we put him down earlier than usual.
Normally though, we feed him about 6pm, bath him, do bedtime routine (same as day pretty much but a bit longer) and he is off by between 6.40 and 7pm.
Then we have the night problems now. I should say that he has always known night from day thank god. So even in the early days when it was pure hell and he NEVER slept in the day, he would sleep for blocks of a few hours at night up to 6 hours which has been a godsend. But now night wakings are making it really awful. We stay up till 10pm and I dream feed (ebm in bottle) then we go to bed. He sometimes wakes before the df anytime from 9.30 but not often enough to term it a habitual waking. When we first started the df he would then sleep to 4.30 or so, feed, then wake for the day at 6ish. After 2 weeks of doing the df sucessfully, he started waking again several times throughout the night so I stopped it as I needed to get more sleep and it didn't appear to be helping at all. Now I think it had nothing to do with the df actually. I started it again and the same thing now (2 weeks later) is happening. He wakes around 2 amd (this has gotten earlier and earlier) . He has come out of the swaddle. He never needs feeding at this time and I can usually resettle although it takes a while. Often he is still unsettled till he becomes really restless for another feed anytime between 3am and 5am! If we are lucky he sleeps properly until he wants his feed. I know he is probably too young to be sleeping through the night but all the wakings are definatly not hunger and I have tried feeding him often. They also can't be habitual wakings as they are everywhere or there are so many of them (often up to 3 a night) it is hard to tell. The last 2 nights he has woken up at 5am and have fed him (drankl for 20 mins solidly) and then have managed to get him back to sleep till 7am.
I would not go as far as to say I don't mind getting up at 5am (because that is a lie) but if it would make the day easier for him and that is his natural rhythm I would gladly do it but I have tried this and it has made the day worse.
Phew.....it has made me tried reading trhough this. Well there it is....a mess really.
The other problem we have is swaddling. To be honest I don't know how we ever would have had a MINUTE of sleep without it but now he just wiggles right out of it. Everytime he is awake and I go in, everytime he is out. I want to get rid of it as sometimes reswaddleing is such a task it disturbs him more and he fights so much I can hardly get a good swaddle anymore. The arms are usually half way up by the time I finish. One arm out and gradually is not the way to go I don't think. I want to go cold turkey but am really scared of what will (or won't ;) happen. He also uses a dummy to sleep but never any other time. That too is a prop which could be bothering his sleep but am not sure if it is a help or hinderance yet.
Can anyone tell me why tracy says it doesn't work to swaddle spirited LO's? Also, what is your experience with swaddling and dummys to sleep.
One last quick thing about activity times. As you can see theere arwe a lot of them and quite long. Various thing are: sitting in his chairs with a rattle or ONE stuffed toy, listening to a song and me singing to him, feeeling different textures and household items together, bouncing and 'walking' on my lap., 'talking' to each other, looking at photos, lying on mummies legs, and 2 minutes a day or so tummy time and a walk in the pram. Not that we do ALL this EVERDAY but they are the things we have going generally. Does it sound like too much? Sometimes I feel he is bored but it could be the opposite too. My partner tends to play with him a hell of a lot, lifting him and singing in his face etc...I try not to critizise because he works all week but I do know it overstimulates him terribly as he is a high energy person. So am I but have really learned to curb it and be soft and low key for my LO. My LO is 3.5 months old.
By the way, yes I do think spiritedness is inherited as we are BOTH quite highly strung, high energy people.
Congrastulations if you have come to the end of this....it is ridiculously long and a bit confusing..sorry. I hope it gives you an idea of what I am doing right and wrong and I would LOVE any help you can offer.
Thanks
Michelle
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Thanks for that Kimberley! I would agree with everything you said :)
Hannahbanana - huge (((hugs))) - these guys can be the hardest to figure out :(
I feel part of my frustration is BW, with it's teachings that babies need to take these long naps. I feel, every day, that we're somehow failing, not getting things "right." Sometimes I wish I'd never started any program and "accidental parent"ed my way through like many of my friend. Maybe I would feel saner right now.
I know I've felt like this sometimes (regularly), but now we've finally achieved some kind of a routine (I ended up having to stay in three days in a row every week for a while ::) :( to get stuff established), whenever we have a day when we just disregard everything and wing it, Eden is so miserable I feel that the other days are worth it - especially as NWings are usually stupid after a crazy day! Some people never do get past short naps, have you found the 45 minute nap threads? Have you tried posting your routine in the EASY forum to see if there are any tweaks that could be made? Sorry if you've already done this - I know it helps for me to get some outside advise!! Hope your tomorrow is better!
I would say your sanity is most important though, and on days when it's started all horrible and doesn't show any signs of changing I would say go out!! Think of it as a long term goal rather than a short term one (I found this really helped with my feelings of failure (she says as she listen to Eden NOT going down for her catnap AGAIN!) ). You are trying to give your LO understanding
Michelle - was just about to hit post when your novel came on the screen :P ;)
Wow!!! Firstly, you're doing great! It is such a muddle with babies, and they keep on changing to keep us on our toes. To look at what you are achieving, going to sleep mainly by himself is huge, as is night sleep (albeit interrupted!!!) If it make you feel any better, we have constant yet different NW issues - it seems to be Eden's sensitive area ::)
On a 3.5 hour EASY we also had issues with naps, we just kind of rode it out until 4 months when after going to 4 EASY things slotted into place. I would say the tired signs are crucial with naps though - when I said that consistancy was important, I more meant with wind-down rather than deciding on a time schedule. Try aiming for getting to the bedroom even before you spot the first tired sign, doing low key play, then when you see it do the wind down. It is an awkward transition phase for some though between 3 and 4 months. The reading at wind down may be too OS for him at this point - maybe just a hold and a song??
Nights - it could be the swaddle that's the issue - we weaned from the swaddle at 3 months, Eden found her thumb and since then has been very good at being resettled. I know others, though who swear by bigger swaddles!
Eating - Eden is a pain in the butt!! If we're in a dim room she will feed for around 5 minute - 15 - if I'm really lucky, but only ever at night time. Out and about 2 mins - we're lucky if I even get the let down. I tend to just trust that she'll get more later and I'll maybe feed her half an hour earlier if we've been out, or offer her a top up before her next nap.
Activity - I would try and make sure that the fun ones happen at the beginning, and towards the end of his A time just let him lie and kick with no deliberate stimulation.
He's still really young, and there is a long journey ahead, but you're heading in the right direction!!
hope some of this helps, I should go and see my ill husband now!!
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Hi to all,
I'm Annie and my LO (Emily) is now 6 months old and spirited. Things seem to be better lately with my LO :) she do naps good and sleep well at night and fall asleep mostly easy. Pacifier and blankie and sometimes she fall asleep within minute, sometimes we have to put the pacifier in her mouth 3-4 times or turn her on her back since she turn on her belly but can't turn on her back after that and she gets mad.
This is not to brag but to give hopes to the ones that are having a hard time. I had a hard time to breastfeed in the beginning because she had such a hard time to take the breast the right way, then colics, then she was use to sleeping on the breast or shoulder, then started EASY and putting her to fall asleep in her crib with sh/pat at around 3 months. I use to have a hard time to put her to bed, she would cry 30-60 min almost every time and sometimes even longer with sh/pat and my arm was so sore - it's still sore even if the sh/pat has stop for the last month. Everything started to get better at 5 months when she started to take the pacifier again. What a relief, I thought I would go insane. She still will do short naps but she is still happy after and she might either do longer nap later in the day if that happen or go to bed earlier. She does wake up every morning around 5-6am to feed (her big feed) but fall back to sleep after until 8am or so. Let's say that she doesn't have a dreamfeed since she had more waking time at night with the dreamfeed (she was waking up for dreamfeed and that was screwing her night sleep), so maybe some of you who has trouble with night waking might try to stop the dreamfeed and see if that help or not. For me also, I do prefer to wake up at 5 am to feed her than waiting until 10 or 11pm for the dreamfeed because I tend to go to bed early.
Michelle, I would try to stop the swaddle at his age, my LO wasn't different at that age with or without the swaddle and it was less trouble for us. My LO is still not doing a EASY routine (more like EASAEAS) as she not always sleep a good naps but I try to keep the BF every 4 hours but now with solid, it's different but since every thing is easier, I didn't find that to hard. I still doesn't know when to put Emily to sleep by looking at her since she might have early signs of fatigue or no sign so I usually go with the clock. Sometimes she will do longer awake time but either she never gets OT or it doesn't bother her because she will have no difference in her naps. Emily was waking up often at night after 4 months and was playing, moving in her crib, mantra crying and after 1-2 hours, she was hungry. After some time, I did 2 things, first close my door and put the fan on so I would not hear her if she would wake up to play (but I do hear her if she cry) and second, feed her as soon as I realise that she was awake (because I realise she was hungry but could be put back to sleep without the feed but then she would wake up later). Now she wakes up only at 5-6am to feed, I think she sometimes wakes up other times during the night but I don't hear her - I realise that when my mother-in-law slept at our place and heard her twice but I didn't. For the activity, I always do activity like playing alone on the floor or on her belly which she like less in the beginning of awake time because after some times she get bored and want me to play with her, so I keep that for the end of the awake time and do my chore in the house either when she first wakes up or during her naps but you might want to rest during his naps if you can.
Well that is enough for today
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Hi Ladies :) Reading your posts so many of your problems sound familiar but Leorah is now a year old (on Friday!) and I cant believe how far she has come. As a newborn she never slept during the day at all, it turned out she was MSPI which didnt help but also I realise now that she wasn't just an alert baby but chronically overtired. When I first came home with L I completely dismissed BW, there was no way the routines were going to work with her, I agree with Michelle there should have been a seperate book for spiriteds ;) However once I worked out she was MSPI and I sorted my diet out I went back to the book and followed a loose EASY but didn't stick to times but just watched for Ls cues which was hard as she never really gave tired signs but I noticed she'd get a glazed look, from here I would quickly bundle her up in her snowsuit and put her in her pram to sleep (she still sleeps outside as we are in Denmark), within 3 days she was falling asleep before I could do her snowsuit up! Her A times were very short but I had a lightbulb moment that although she isnt like the babies you read about in the books she does really need a routine probably more than another kind of baby. We have had short naps and NWs galore which I now realise were due to OT, spirited babies get OT and OS so easily. As for toys and bouncy chairs, mobiles etc we had to banish them until she was at least 3 months and then limit their use, L was only a few weeks old when she was swatting the dangley elephant hanging over her on her playmat, we first thought wow isn't she clever and then realised it was making her furious, oops!! We used to also get a lot of evening fussiness and suddenly we had another revelation that she was just asking to go to bed, I wish we had realised this so much earlier, our rule now is she does not go to bed any more than 12 hours after she woke up and we never have a cranky baby before bed and I see even my friends with angel babies do, honestly I am the poster girl for babies sleep being top priority, they need sleep to thrive! We never did swaddle but L was always a jumpy baby (still jumpy when napping when OT), we got round this by putting her to sleep on her tummy with a breathing moniter, she rolls all over the cot now but still sleeps on her tummy. As for feeding we were lucky and BF went very well and she was a quick feeder and being a bit of a prude I'd always take her somewhere private and found wearing a BF necklace kept her occupied...sometimes :P
Anyway to jump to the present day we still struggle with short naps for periods and I had a horrible time around the 10 month mark where she had accummulated OT but have found consistancy and the WI/WO method for older babies wonderful. Looking back on her first year I realise although it has been hard work I wouldnt change her spiritedness for anything. Spirited babies have such huge personalities, are very intelligent, fearless, cheeky and bring such joy. L has lots of baby friends and absolutely stands out from the group and the other mums point this out, she notices and has to touch everything ::), she charms strangers from her pushchair, she climbs like a monkey, she has a proper sense of humour, she is very advanced in her communication and problem solving skills and loads more. Yes I am bragging but after all those mums showing off about theír fabulous sleepers and how they take their babies along wherever they are going it's my turn!!!L still gets easily OS and OT but I now know I can control this most of the time, she is the only baby in our circle that isn't having a 1st birthday party but I know she needs her naps and sleep to stay on schedule much more than she needs cake and balloons (for this year anyway!)
My biggest advice to mums of spiriteds is make sleep the priority. Ok it's not easy but you can almost hear our LO's brains going 100 mph and the energy they use tearing around the place when they are mobile is crazy they really need their parents in control of making sure they are rested otherwise they will charge on relentlessly! It has been hard refusing invitations and leaving early from places so L can get her sleep but our lives are so much better and stress free now compared to how they were with an OT baby. People always comment on how sociable and happy L is and that's because I remove her before she gets OS.
So wow I have written an essay but I am so passionate about spirited kids now. We may have to work harder but we are the lucky ones that have been chosen to have these special kids. I always notice spiritied babies and kids now, they have a special sparkle about them and an invisible energy that you cant put your finger on but makes them so much fun to be around. I feel like us parents of these children belong to a special club, noone else could understand parenting babies and kids like this and the good really outweighs the challenging, it makes me feel better to think this on NWs lol!! Now when I get comments about L being a handful or hardwork I turn around and say yes its lovely having a child full of energy and enthusiasm for life, I'm really proud she is such a little character and cant wait for all the joy she's going to bring with her lust for life. We are so lucky and lets try and remind each other of that on the challenging days, hugs to you all and your little superstars :-*
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There is no way I could have said that better Skatty!!
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Hello all, I am mum to Abbi, spirited tearaway! She frightens the life out of me sometimes, she just crawls too quick, smacking off things as she goes! She likes to smack things, pull them apart and has a wail like a banshee go insane! She flipps squirmes bounces and wiggles, man she exhausts me just by looking at her. Her sleep is ok now, but was terrible up until 7 months old (she is 9 months now)
Do you know, her and DS were playing with toy together today (a musical keyboard) and she continuously shouted Ahhhhhh at Jack and kept swiping his hand off it, he run away crying poor little guy :'( :'( :'(
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Wow Skatty.......It has either been a long road for you and you ahev come out on teh other side or you are extremely optimistic! Thanks for athat post though....very inspiring! The biggest thing is changing your lifestyle to accomodate. MY DH still hasn't accepted that life has to be different so I am fighting him by trying to put Ben first and his naps but still trying to please DH when he wants to go for a drive or out to friends etc... God it is hard
Lorna - you are an angel! Thanks for the advice.
I find it so hard to know when the right time for sleep is. A question to you all: how did you find out how many hours of sleep a day your LO's needed. SOmetimes I thing 2x 2 hour naps and a catnap might be too much. But having said that....it has NEVER happened ;)
Will check back soon. He has been down an hour now for his morning nap....a record. It is jsut the inconsistency of it all. Sometimes the morning nap is OK sometimes the after noon. Sometimes non at all happen. I just really don't understand WHY. I know Maisy ont the sleep boards said that morning nap came together at 4 months, afternoon at 6 and then at 9 months...both worked together for her LO. Wonder if she has a point. I think I am expecting too much for his age.
Thank you all sooo much for the inspiration.
Michelle
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hi Annie,
forgot to thank you too. Yes I need to dtop the swaddling. Although he hasn't slept without it yet it s more trouble than it is worth. Just have to do it I think. Sleep is anyway, can't get any worse really.
Your LO is so gorgeopus and thanks for the advice.
Michelle
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Hi. I apologize for not using much computer lingo, as this is a new toy in our house. My name is Julie and my son Malakai is 4 months old. He is a spirited baby. We have been trying to follow E.A.S.Y. since he was born, but have had limited success with it. We will follow a schedule - EAEAS - is usually what it ends up being, he'll follow it for a day or two and then decide that he doesn't like that anymore.
He is a fussy eater during the day. He will only BF if it occurs right after he wakes up and the room is kept dark. Even then it is for a limited time and he usually doesn't take more than 2 or 3 oz. on a good day. Some days he refuses it. There was a 2 day span where he would take about 3 oz from me and 2 hours later take a 3 oz bottle. This worked out well and his night sleep was great. However, it only lasted for 2 days and then I bacame ill (MS). I have no idea how to get him back to that. He would rather feed all night and play all day. If I try to stretch him out at night he just cries louder - I am sure we are waking the neighbours 3 doors down. If I try to feed him more during the day, he just refuses. I know he can go longer at night without food, because he can do it during the day. There are days where he'll go 6 or 7 hours without eating. I just don't know how to get him to eat during the day and stretch like this at night. I can't just switch his days and nights because he plays all day.
His activity times last anywhere between 2.5 hours and 3 hours. If I try to put him down before this, it is just a fight and he still falls asleep at about the 2.5 - 3 hour mark. I am getting betterr at reading his cues, but he likes to keep me on my toes by frequently changing them. He enjoys going out once a day to "see the world". He fusses alot more when we don't go somewhere and he is much happier if we do go out, so this has become a regular part of our day. Some activities we do are Baby and Me classes, Music and Movement, and (his all time favourite) swimming.
He usually has 2 naps a day, sometimes they are both 45 minutes, but usually the second one is only 30 min. long. He wakes frequently throughout the night. He will do a 5 hour stretch one night and then decide that he likes getting up instead and wont sleep longer than 1.5 - 2 hours for a few weeks. It's exhausting. I have tried the pacifier (which he loves) and he is getting better at finding his thumb himself, but there is usually a burp that wakes him and then he thinks he is hungry. I can't keep this pace up much longer. I have a very happy little boy, but I do not have the energy to get so little sleep at night, no rest during the day and do outings. There has to be some compromise in between. Any suggestions on how to get him to eat better during the day and sleep better at night?
Do you have sample schedules from other spirited babies?
I have to go get him. I will post his temporary schedule when I get a chance.
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Hi Mom of Malakai and welcome. Wow it sounds like you are having a very challenging time at the mo'! Reading your post about Malakai it sounded like you have a very overtired baby on your hands and I have been there ::) The thing with these spirited LO's (little ones) is that they don't have typical tired signs and just get more and more wired. When DS (Dear Son) fights his naps at 2˝ hours he is already way past his nap prime time and has got a second wind and will be full of adrenalin which makes it almost impossible for him to go to sleep until the point of exhaustion, are his naps jumpy? His A times at the mo' are more suitable for a 9/10 month old and spirited kids actually often have a shorter A time whilst so small. Saying this I do also understand that it is not easy to correct but we will be here to help you so please do let us know your routine when you can. I am not sure about the feeding during the night as this was a problem I never had but perhaps you could post on the breastfeeding board and main EASY board. My DD just didnt nap until she was a few months old and I started to get her ready for her nap way before I would ever think she could be tired and it worked! She actually started having really long naps for a while, catching upon all the sleep she had been missing which you may find too ;)
I know you probably have no time to spare for reading but if you can I really recommend the book "Healthy sleep habits, happy child", just ignore the sleep training part but it really helps reading about the science of sleep for a baby and gives some tips on napping etc. I will take a look later and see what it says about swapping day for night and let you know :)
Anyway have a good day today and try and give us some more info when you can, it will all get better now you have found this site there are so many people to help you.
(((hugs))) Katt :)
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Hi Katt. THanks for the support.
I was wondering if he was too overtired, but I am not sure putting him to bed earlier in the day would help. Heres why: we tried to put DS to bed earlier than we thought he'd be ready. But it got to the point that he knew we were trying to put him to sleep, so he'd fight and scream even more. His bed time routine is started way before he's ready and this seems to work in the evenings. We usually get ready for a nap by reading 2-3 quiet stories downstairs (sometimes giving a bottle here if he is hungry or had a small feed - 1 oz. - when he woke up, going upstairs, closing the doors to the rooms upstairs as we go towards his room to darken the hallway, turning on his red light, closing the blinds and sitting quietly on the spare bed in his room while he looks at the dim red light in his room. By this time he is usually ready to sleep and with the last few fighting sleep fusses he'll go down. THere isn't usually fighting or crying to sleep, unless we miss something in our sleep routine or he is put down after 3 hrs. from the beginning of when he got up. For example, if he wakes at 8am, I know I need to start the routine by 9:45 am (10 am if we're out) and he'll go down nicely around 10:30am most times. (Sometimes he'll have a burp and this will stretch it to 10:45 or 11:00 am when he goes down.
Our problem is keeping him asleep for longer naps and feeding during the day so he doesn't need to feed all night.
Maybe I'll try an earlier bedtime (of 6:30 instead of 7 or 7:30) and see if this helps to remedy the overtired problem.
Michele also e-mailed me and said to try water. I'll give these 2 a try and let you know.
Thanks again.
Julie
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Julie, I laughed out loud when I read your description of Malakai wanting to go out once a day to see the world. That's my little Violet exactly! We'll see you at the park!!! I don't know if Malakai is the same, but I know Violet is uncharacteristically quiet while we're out. I used to mistake that for thinking she was in a calm state, but I now know she was just too busy trying to absorb every last thing she could ... which means she gets really overstimulated if our outings are too long. I now try to just do one thing, or two at most, on each trip (instead of trying to cram all my errands in at once, for example). I also try not to be out for more than an hour, but that's easier said than done.
We just did our first 24 hours on the EASY routine. I was expecting 24 hours of sheer misery, and it was better than that so I have hope! (The power of low expectations?) Violet took quickly to eating only 4 hours, to my surprise. She's definitely been a snacker up to this point, and I was worried she'd be hungry all day. We modified the shush-pat to a kind of shush-snuggle, where I basically used my arms to make a human swaddling blanket with Violet on the crib. She liked it a lot better than the patting, which seemed to just get her more upset. I think I read something similar in the archived Spirited Babies board that gave me the idea.
I have a couple questions, that I thought you all might be able to help me with. Let me know if I should head to one of the other EASY boards instead.
-- When we put her down for a nap, should we try leaving the room immediately? Yesterday, I sat back and watched while she played a little bit, and I didn't intervene until she started to get upset. I'm wondering if I should instead leave and come back in.
-- We fed Violet at about 3:15am -- she had been cosleeping with us and hadn't gone a night without snacking. Because of that, we weren't sure whether she could make it all night. When she got up at 3am, she was indicating hunger, and she really chowed down. But, she was hardly hungry at all when she got up this morning at 7am and I fed her. Is that a sign she really didn't need the 3:15am feeding?
-- Is it more important to stick to the order of EASY or just separate feeding from sleeping? Last evening, Violet had a catnap at 5:00pm and woke up at 5:30pm. She wasn't due for a feed until 6:30pm, so I gave her a bath and a quick massage instead, then fed her and sent her to bed by 7:15pm. So, I switch the E and the A, but I didn't feed her to sleep.
Thank you all for being here!!!
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Hi Violet,
Sleeping thing: I think definatly don't intervene unless they cry. They can take up to 20 mins to put themselves to sleep but it is DEFINATLY a good thing as it is the beginnings of independant sleep. My son did it today for the first time EVER!! ;D
Either they will go to sleep or eventually cry but it is better to give them the chance. I stay in the room and monitor it from the corner but won't intervene now unless he cries (which usually happens) :'( but I have seen hope.
The feeding question: we have the EXACT same issue but we hav so many night wakings I find it hard to convince hime to go back to sleep without feeding at tleast once in the night. He fed at 3am last night and missed his 7am feed completely this morning. I tried for an hour and he just protested every time but the 10.30 was ok and he filled up then.
Would be great if anyone can help us with this!! :-\
Michelle
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Michelle and everyone,
I found an interview with Tracy somewhere on the site (maybe the naps FAQ? so much great stuff, I lose track). She suggests that if your baby wakes at the same time to feed every night, to start moving that feeding up gradually, so it eventually merges with the dream feed. Anyone tried this???
I can't find the link right now, but I'll post it when I do.
Mary (& Violet)
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Way to go ben on going to sleep!!! WOOHOO!!!
mom of malaki - I would agree with skatty - your LO (little one) does sound OT and OS (overtired and overstimulated) as he sounds so classically spirited!! The fitful sleep at night would also suggest this, but it is difficult to try and chamge things, as they like what they're used to. You asked for a routines of other babes. At 4 months Eden's routine looked like...
700 - feed (in a dark room)
845 wind down 900 sleep
1100 feed (only one not in a dark room now - I'm lucky if I get 3 minutes)
1245 ish wind down 1300 sleep
1500 feed in dark
1645 cat nap 10 mins
1830 wind down feed and sleep before 7
2230 dream feed.
I would post more, but battery is dying and I don't know where the charger is!!!
HTH
see you soon!!!
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Thanks again Lorna!
Mary- I df at 10 anyway...not sure what you mean by pushing it later to meet it? THe 3am feed is after the dreamfeed. You can always try resettling and making it later and later but y friend of mine said sleeping through doesn't really happen like that it is more a case of one night when they are older and the right weight they just doN't wake till the morning. Can any of you with older LO's second that?
Also....was I right about leaving the baby to try to sleep alone if not crying or not? Hope so becuase that is what I am trying at the moment. Sh/Pat is old tooth. Need to get into PU/PD if need be soon.
Mary, write again soon with that link if you find it...thanks!
Michelle
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Hi there
Wow you could be describing my Alanah in most of these posts, i have just posted on the naps board too but feel my lo fits totally into this catagory!!
I've only just found this forum as i have just ordered myself a copy of BW and waiting for it to arrive. I have to say what a relief to find others in my situation, let me introduce myself...
My lo Alanah is 11 weeks old and has always struggled with naps, when she was just 3 weeks old she would be awake up to 3 hours 5 at the most and everyone said that was way too long for her age and she must be overtired, i felt like the worst mum in the world for not being able to get her to sleep!!
We are still struggling, she rarely sleeps past 45 mins and is an absolute nightmare to get to sleep, yesterday was just horrendous with maybe two 45 min naps one 20 min nap in the buggy and 1/2 hour at about 7. It ther took us untill 11.30pm to get her to sleep, the only consolation is once we do get her down atnight she will go 6-8 hours first stretch then usually onother 3 before we are up again. Because her bedtime is never consistent (i try for the same time every night but it varies as to how long it takes me) her wake up time is never the same so we struggle to get into a routine.
To make matters worse i go back to work in 3 weeks and dp will have her during the day who i know just won't have the persistence to get her to nap, consequently i'll end up with with a very OT and OS little girl when i get home at 4pm and he goes off to work!!
I'm feeling at my wits end at the moment as there is no way she can get herself off to sleep and i am currently nursing, rocking or letting her fall asleep on me before i can put her down. Most naps now she screams and screams before hand the worst being before bed, by which time she is so overtired she doesn't know what to do with herself and screams like she is being tortured.
Night feeds can sometimes take me 2 hours, i have to do them in almost pitch darkness otherwise she gets too awake. and it takes an eternity to re settle her.
This thread has been so reassuring and i look forward to getting my book although i don't hold out any hope that it will be a miracule cure........
Laura.
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Michelle,
Here's the link, the interview is the fourth post.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62051.0
It looks like I misread it, though. Tracy was asked what you do when you've eliminated a feed and the baby's still waking at that hour. But, I haven't eliminated the feed!
Here's my plan to get rid of the 3am feed, and I'll let you know how it works. I think Violet's getting enough calories from that night time session that she won't let it go. So, I'm going to pump a few minutes after every daytime feeding and give her that milk extra milk at the next feeding. (She doesn't really like the bottle, so we'll see how successful I am with this. If nothing else, it will eventually increase my milk supply during the day.) I'm going to cluster feed at 5pm and 7pm. I'll keep doing the dream feed. After doing that for a few days, I'm going to start cutting the time she gets on the breast at 3am. Hopefully, I'll add enough calories over the daytime, that she'll drop the 3am feed on her own. If not, I guess I'll have to come up with plan B!?! Anyway, it looks like I'll be spending all weekend attached to the pump!
Laura, in my experience, Violet straightened out some of her unpredictability just after turning 3 months. She hit some kind of developmental milestone that caused her behavior to be less erratic (although obviously not completely, or I wouldn't be here!) Anyway, Alanah might surprise you over the next couple of weeks, so hang in there!
Mary
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Hey everyone!
I have given up on the third nap in the day and I have been tring to put Mala to bed earlier (at 6:30) instead of 7. This seems to be working out. His morning nap has been 2 hours long these last 2 mornings!!
We still have to work on the afternoon naps though. He usually sleeps better after a short outing, maybe I'll put this in the afternoon. Thanks Violets mom for the support about our LO's wanting to go out. I thought I was crazy! I will try your idea of being sure to keep the outings no more than an hour long and shortening the number of things I do in an outing. Maybe this will help with the OS difficulty while still giving him his "adventure" out of the house.
Now that he is going to bed earlier and his morning naps are better, he doesn't seem to be as OT now. He still likes to eat at night, but his daytime feedings are already better, so maybe it is just a matter of time. [The water at night didn't work out very well. He just threw it all back up and was hungry a half hour later. :( ]Thanks to many of you for the idea of stretching him out in between feeds. I thought he would fight a lot more when I made him go longer between feeds, but he enjoys it much better and is slowly increasing the amount he takes at each feed.
(Anyone know how many ounces a four to five month old should be taking in a 24 hour period to keep his weight healthy? This may sound like a silly question, but he was born under weight and it has taken us this long to get him to a healthy weight (even with all his feeding!) I'd hate to loose that now by trying to get him to skip more night feeds, but the night feeding has to stop.
Wow, he's up! That was his first 2hr. and 15 minute nap! Amazing!!!
Julie
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Hi
Michelle: did you try not swaddling Ben and if so, how did it go? Hope that PU/PD will work for you. If your baby is not crying when you put him to bed, leave him be and he will fall asleep (even though mine use to do mantra cry or toss and turn for hours - that did drive me crazy and after an hour or so I had to try and put her to sleep by sh/pat. I don't think you should do PU/PD if your baby is not crying.) I think one way to bring your 3am feed to the dreamfeed, would be to give the feed a bit earlier every night (by 15 min or so) as to bring it to the dreamfeed like the book said when you try to stop the dreamfeed but this is my thought only. But you will have to make it slow because he probably have an internal clock waking him at 3am.
Julie: I don't know exactly how you can have your baby feed less during the night and more during the day. Here some of my thought: have him feed every 4 hours during the day even if it is only a little bit and even if you have to go in a dark room or whatever (everything he eat during the day, he won't need at night). Continue on to stretch between feed at night. For the sleeping issue (naps and bedtime), I really had a hard time with Emily and at 4 months, it was still hard for her to go to sleep, she would be tired but wouldn't sleep. Here is her routine at 4 months (what I remember anyway):
E:6-6:15
A:6:15-8:00
S:8:00-9:00
E:10:00-10:15
A:10:15-12:00
S:12:00-2:00pm
E:2:00-2:15
A:2:15-3:30
No catnap and bath, feed and bed at 7:30.
DF at 11:00 but stop that after some time since she was waking at 4 or 5am anyway, with or without DF.
For your questions about how many ounces she should eat, I don't know how to put the link here but look in the board of Bottlefeeding under the FAQS, the answer is there for formula. If your are giving him breast milk in a bottle, then I know the answer is somewhere but I think is about the same. I know what you mean by not wanting him to loose weight, my daughter was born under weight and still is, she even has not put any weight in the 4th month even if she BF every 4 hours. Hope this time, she gains weight at her immunization appointment next tuesday. Anyway your baby need also to sleep and so does you and he can always gain weight later if he loose a bit which is not sure that he will do by giving him less feed during the night.
Violetmum: I did stay and wait until she settle in the beginning and even now when we go to visit somewhere, but at home now I go outside the room and do my stuff and only go in if she can't settle and begin to cry. If she ate good at 3:00, then she was hungry. She might eat less at 7am. From my experience when Emily was around 4 months, I try not feeding Emily in the middle of the night (I was thinking she wasn't hungry) and it turn out to be awake time for 1-2 hours at night and as soon as I started to feed her, she would feed and then back to sleep. Since then she feed at 5-6am (this morning, she didn't wake up at all) and back to sleep but she eat less when she wake up for the day around 8am but I do prefer that then staying awake 1-2 hours every night. If she is waking only once during the night, then I would let her be but don't feed her at night if it's been less then 5 hours between feed. That was one of the advice on Night waking board. As far as the bedtime goes, you can have feeding before bedtime if you don't let your baby fall asleep on the breast or bottle. My bedtime routine is bath, feed, rocking and bed (she fall asleep in her bed!). She doesn't have a catnap so it's look like EAES before bedtime but if catnap, then can be EASAES.
hope this help someone.
My issue is more to find a good time to give solid to Emily. I realise today that she won't eat much of the cereal not because she doesn't like it but because she is not hungry at the time I give it to her. I think I should give her solid then BF later instead of the opposite since she will drink milk anytime unless I only give her fruits for solid since she will eat that anytime too :P I will post on the solid food board but would appreciate any advice from you all.
Annie
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Hi,
Violet's mom, I was wondering what kind of outings you take your dear Violet on. I am looking for ideas that involve little walking or standing (as I am limited in what I can do) and are not too OS for Malakai. Going swimming during a quieter time of the day when there are very few others in the pool works well, but I am finding that a lot of the Baby and Me classes or music classes are too OS for him right now. Any ideas anyone?
Here is Mala's schedule:
(It is based on his natural rhythms)
E 5 or 5:30 am
S- 6 to 8 am
E- 8 to 8:30
A-8:30 to 10 (Ready to sleep 10 - 10:15)
S- 10:15 - 12
E- 12 to 12:30
A- 12:30 to 2:15 (ready to sleep 2:15 - 2:30)
S-2:30 to 3:30
A -3:30 to 5:30 (E at 4 for 20 minutes)
S -5:30 to 6:00
E 6
A 6:30 - 8 (we tried to put him to bed at 7:30 and he never fell asleep before 8 or 8:15)
(Bath was at 6:45 and he always wanted a bedtime bottle at 7:15. Cuddles and stories after that.)
DF at 9:30.
THis is supposed to be his schedule and he followed it fairly closely for a few days. He was very happy for those few days and did nice stretches at night. Then I got sick and he is all off and I have no idea how to get him back on track without becoming ill again. What a vicious cycle.
The problems with the previous schedule:
-he usually only slept for 45 minutes in the morning and the afternoon nap is usually only 20 to 30 minutes
-he wouldn't go down for his last nap without going outside for a walk (something I couldn't keep doing myself), even with a walk, most of the time he wouldn't go down for his nap until he was too tired at around 6:15pm - making the night too late
-if he did go down for a nap it was short (20 - 30 min.) then he wouldn't go to bed until 8:15 and sometimes even later like 9, making him too tired the following day
-he never ate well at any of the feeds after his 8 o'clock feeding
(we've adjusted his schedule so that there is no nap in the evening and bedtime is at 6:30)
Here's what I know about Mala (he is happiest when):
-he wakes up at 8 in the morning (if he gets up at 7 because something is bothering him - ie. a dirty diaper, he is very grumpy all day)
-he eats the best and the most every 3 1/2 hours (before this time and he snacks, after this and he is too hungry and burps get stuck and frustrate him and it turns into a huge meltdown)
-his awake time totals 2 1/2 hours (this includes his time to feed, diaper, play and get ready for sleep)
-his bedtime is between 6:30 and 7 pm
-he gets at least a 13 hour stretch at night (this allows for a few feeds, as it would be nice to even get him to stretch for 5 or 6 hours at night)
-he does good if we stay home in the morning, but he gets bored of the house in the afternoon (any ideas of good outings that wouldn't OS him and mess him up for the night?)
Any suggestions as to how to make this work for E.A.S.Y. so that he is getting enough food and rest and the right amount of stimulation without being OT or OS?
Also, should I be setting the alarm at night and only feeding him at these times (ex. every four hours at night as well and then start to cut them out?) If he then decides not to get up for the 5:30 am feed, should I wake up and feed him then so that we are setting the day off right because then he wouldn't be hungry before 8 am?
Hope your able to help because I am going nuts!
Julie
P.S. It is weird to have a son who enjoys going out because I enjoy being at home instead! :)
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Mry-thanks for the link! I can't seem to stop him eating in the night yet or resettle before I feed him to make it longer. I am just trusting that soon the day comes when he doesn't need to wake up. Mmmmm I'll believe it when it happens!
Also tried the extra calories in the day with no difference at night yet?!
Laura- I totally agree with Mary...something did happen around 3 months. I can see SMALL improvements in all the effort I have been putting in although still very stressful and far from ok. It was like suddenly he said 'OK I am ready to try to have better naps now mummy because I know I need the sleep'.
I thibnk it is really important to know how you want it to go and just stick with it. To an extent you have to be ruthless and take control. My LO screamed and screamed when put down for naps (and still does although it has gotten better) and for a ling time I thought 'oh he is not tired or doesn't want to go to sleep' which was a mistake. I would give up and get him up and all hell would break loose.
Be strong and confident...listen to her but aklso know that she can't do sleep alone. She needs your help for now and it is not at you when she screams. It is just frustration.
I am also sure if you are consistent you will soon see glimmers of hope although we all have a logn road to travel! :-\
Michelle
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Thanks for the answers to all my questions, everyone.
Julie -- Our outings tend to be a walk along the path in the park by my house, or an errand. We had also been doing a music class once a week. Just being outside seems to be plenty of stimulation for Violet, so maybe you can just hang out someplace and watch the people go by?
Actually, I now think the outings have been too stimulating for us. Violet has been a constant night waker. Since we started the EASY plan almost a week ago, we've had one glorious night where Violet woke overnight only to feed and went right back to sleep. That was the day we didn't go anywhere. ??? (Her naps the next day set a record, too -- over an hour and a half both morning and afternoon, plus a catnap. That's a record.) Sooo.... I'm putting myself under voluntary house arrest for a week to see whether our outings just proved too overstimulating and caused her night wakings.
By the way, Julie, I totally know how you feel -- I can be an antisocial homebody when I want to be, and I've given birth to a super-social adventure girl!!!
I'm also still pumping and cluster feeding to tank her up during the day. Now that she's eating on a more regular schedule, I can see she really could take more milk than I can give her toward the end of the day. She starts eating voraciously with the 3pm feeding and sometimes can't wait for 5pm for the first cluster feeding! Makes me feel like I've been starving her all this time, but she's putting on weight just fine.
I must say that even though I'm still frustrated with the naps and sleeping situation, Violet's been a real trouper and adjusted to a lot of the changes we've thrown at her.
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Hey Violetmum! Thanks for the response. I have noticed with Mala that his naps have grown longer and his night wakings have improved since I have been feeding every four hours during the day and changed his outings slightly. I now keep them shorter and do less stimulating things - like watch the people go by :). I also don't go out each day. This seems to be helping. Let me know how Violet does near the end of the week. I've noticed with Mala that if I keep him at home for too many days in a row he seems to get more fussy and sleeps less, so I have taken to spreading out the outings throughout the week - one day I go out, one day we stay at home etc. This seems to be working much better!! For the past 3 days he has had a 2 hr. nap in the am and a 1 - 1.5hr. nap in the pm and 2 of the nights has only woken once at night to feed around 3 am. Good luck with Violet at home!! Hope her sleep improves. :)
Julie
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Hi
Just to let you know that Emily has put 1 pound since last month and now weigth 11lbs 8oz at 6 months :) Still tinny but at least she has gained this month, which she didn't last month. Yey for us ;D
Julie, good to hear that Malakai is now doing better naps :)
Annie
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Great idea, Julie, about spreading out the outings.
Just a quick note to say we had a great day yesterday! Violet had three long naps without me having to resettle her after 45 minute. I don't think she's ever done that before. I even had to wake her up from her late afternoon catnap! Except to feed at 3am, she only woke up one extra time last night, too. Looks like it might be two steps forward yesterday and one step back today, but that's ok. I think we're definitely on the right track.
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I only had time to get down to Michelle's post on 9/30, but I can already say thank goodness I found you guys! My name is Jen and my son Benjamin is a 7 week old spirited baby that I have been struggling to understand. I will definitely be back later to read and post some more!
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Hi All,
I am at my wit's end after another day of 20-45 minute naps and a screaming, overtired 7-week-old. I am about to start the E.A.S.Y. method and was hoping that someone could give me a list of modifications for a spirited child (i.e. a number of people have mentioned not doing PU/PD and emphasize the importance of a completely dark room).
I need all of the help that I can get!
Amanda
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Wow! Way to go Violet!!
I posted here earlier today about Mala now wanting to eat before he sleeps, has anyone seen it? It is not showing up on my computer. Did it get posted elsewhere?
Julie
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Hi there! I introduced myself quickly before, but, again, I'm Jen and my son Benjamin is 7 weeks old. Early on I thought Ben was Touchy/Textbook, but he's definitely developed into a Spirited/Touchy baby. For me, someone who likes to know what's coming and to have schedule, this is a nightmare! We also found out 3 weeks ago that Ben has reflux. Things have been extra crazy ever since.
I think our primary problem, like so many spiriteds, is sleep. We usually sleep well at night- 5 to 7 hours in the first shift, eat, then another 2 to 3 hours. I know this only totals about 8 hours and everyone keeps telling me he needs more nighttime sleep, but I can't, for the life of me, get him to sleep any longer. When he wakes up after the second shift he's bright eyed and bushy tailed. Even if I am able to get him down again he'll only sleep another hour and a half. We also tried moving his bedtime up. Whew! His touchy self came out then. He woke up every 1.5 to 2 hours those nights. Daytime sleep is elusive. He screams with arched back any time I try to put him down for a nap. I can usually get him down for a nap about 2 to 2.5 hours after he's woken up for the day. Naps from then until around 4 or 5 are very short and normally nonexistent, and he's miserable to get down. In the evening, Ben crashes. He'll sleep very well for 2 to 3 hours, then be very fussy for an hour to an hour and a half. By 8:30 to 9:00 he's ready for nighttime sleep. Like I said, I'm not one to fly by the seat of my pants, so this chaos is really difficult, especially on such little sleep (the past three nights, Ben has gotten up about every 2 hours for no apparent reason). He's so unpredictable!
Eating has gone well. He was a sleepy eater early on, but has moved past that enough to bf consistently getting about 2 oz. every 2-3 hours. We pumped milk/formula feed from midnight to 6AM to give me a little break.
As far as activity is concerned, I'm sure this plays into our sleep troubles. Ben gets way too much, and is easily OS by things as simple as the sound of the clothes dryer constantly humming. He, too, will get very quiet when we're out and about. I always thought he was relaxing too. Now I know he's just absorbing all of the energy and saving it up for nap time later in the day.
I'm just so relieved to hear from people who are struggling with EASY in the same ways I am. I feel completely lost and don't even know where to begin. If you'd help me narrow it down to something manageable in the sleep/activity department that'd be wonderful! It seems all you moms of older babies have great advice, because you've experienced it!
Thanks, all!
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Hi Jen and Amanda and welcome.
First I find that you are really good to be starting EASY at 7 weeks and this will help you in the future. For both of you, it will be better for you to write down the routine of the day so we can help you more.
Jen: Is anything been done for the reflux? Is it under control? Don't worry, Ben also like a good routine even if he doesn't know yet. Probably, Ben is OT by the time you put him to bed. You probably heard that often and you telling yourself you can't have him sleep more, don't worry you're not alone. I went through the same thing. First, give you and him time to adjust to a good routine. It will take time and lot of crying from him and you but it will improve. First, put a good routine in place without too much awake time compare to sleep time. He is a bit young so awake time shouldn't be too long. You can find the information in FAQS of general sleep issues for sleep time during day and night. It is hard to give you some advice without your routine written down because it all depend at what time he gets up in the morning, when he start that long nap before bedtime. You can try swaddling him and maybe do sh/pat. Write down the routine and I'll try to help you more. I'm here often.
Amanda: Don't worry, we're here to help you. For a spirit baby as young as yours, pretty much the same thing as other babies except the dark room that is preferable (don't make much difference for mine for the naps but help at night and early morning). You shouldn't do PU/PD for yours yet since she is too young. Try swaddling and/or hold her down on the bed, put a good routine, know your baby and try to put her down when you know she is tired (she may or may not have any signs - I have to watch the clock for mine since she can have no signs or too early signs), have a good sleep ritual (rock, pacifier, walking, singing, whatever you like) even for the naps.
For both of you, if you want to change the way it is going now, invest yourself for 2 weeks which mean don't do errand too much, try to stay at home to see more the signs, the time your baby sleep and adjust your baby to the new routine. Write your routine (including how much time it took for your baby to fall asleep, how many time he/she woke up at night, etc) on paper for the next few days and try to see a pattern. I did that for mine and realise she was fallen asleep faster if she was up for 2 hours, no more no less in the morning (that was at about 5 months and she had no sign of being tired).
Good luck for now!
Annie
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Help!!!! I can't take any more of this!!! My precious Mala was doing well for a day or two - this always seems to be the extend of following anything. Now we're right back to where we started, with an added problem of wanting to eat before he sleeps!!! (see my message in the E.A.S.Y. forum) Yesterday we were back to 2 short naps and no matter what I tried I couldn't get him to sleep longer. Then the night was worse!! He was up every hour. It would take me at the least a half hour to settle him and then he'd be up a half hour after that! :'( I was up straight from 11:30 pm to 3:30 am at which time he stayed asleep for 2 hours before getting up again. Today his naps are no better and I am going crazy! It is not a growth spurt as he wasn't waking hungry. He didn't need a bum change and the temp. in his room was fine. Any suggestions? I don't think I can do this much longer. :( Please help.
Julie
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Thanks Annie.
I started writing down Ellie's schedule yesterday. Although, I think she may be going through a growth spurt right now as she was eating much more frequently than usual.
She is at the point now where she begins crying as soon as I walk into the bedroom. For this last nap I moved the bassinet into the hallway (which is much darker than the bedroom) to see if a change of scenery might help. I'm afraid that she has already made some negative sleep associations with our previous sleep routines, including the location. Anyway, she went down fairly easy with swaddling and pat/shh. I also have white noise playing. We are approaching the 45 minute mark so we will see if she makes it past that point.
Two questions.
One: When is a good time to move her out of our bedroom/bassinet and into her room/crib? I have heard that you should keep infants in your room at this age. However, she sleeps so lightly that she often wakes just when we roll over in bed.
Two: She prefers to sleep on her side. Up to this point I have fought this and put her down on her back due to the risk of SIDS. Her response is to scream and kick. However, out of utter exhaution, I just put her down on her side and have wedged her into her bassinet with towels. When I lay her down on her side she often will go to sleep within a couple of minutes of pat/shh. I am interested in hearing anyone's opinion on side sleeping and the use of sleep positioners.
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Amanda, my dd was doing the same thing (crying as I was going into the room or all through the ritual). After some time, I've started to give relax time before bed, either for naps or bedtime, with the pacifier I would rock her while she looks at me. I do that outside the room and then go in the room, put her in the crib and give her the blankie. It took us a while but she now settle without crying but can play a bit in her crib, specially at bedtime. It went good after she took the pacifier again. I not sure about the white noise playing, I don't know if it's too much for a spirited baby or maybe it can help. It took us 2 months for her to accept to go to bed, but I'm not sure if it was because of lack of proper ritual, too OT, because she needed to suck to sleep but wouldn't take the pacifier (she was use to fall asleep on the breast before I've learn of EASY) or was it only her young age and spirit part. I personnaly think that the pacifier was the saver!
For your questions: one: you can move her in her bedroom/crib now and the sooner the better. You don't want the baby to get accustomed to sleeping in your room. My dd was sleeping in her own bedroom/crib at night since coming at home from the hospital and did always good at night. But the problem was that I was only putting her in her bed after she was sleeping, that did cause us problem. :-[ Questions 2: Don't worry about sleeping on her side, SIDS is only more frequent if they sleep on their stomach. You can put wedge but it is more likely that she will roll on her back if she move because her arms and legs will be in the way and will prevent her to roll unto her stomach at her age. My daughter always sleeps on her side since day one and love it.
Julie, hang in there. Don't forget that they tend to relapse to the bad habit after some time and you have to try again. I've seen your post on EASY, did you try to give him less food at night? Did it help? Are you letting him sleep on the bottle/breast? To help him not associate eat to sleep, don't let him sleep on bottle/breast and make sure to have some time in between the feed and putting him to bed. Does anybody else have suggestions?
Annie
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Hi Annie. Thanks for the support. Tried less food at night. Worked for one day, I was up alot to do it, and don't have the energy to continue. Mom in law is staying over next Thurs to see if she can help me stay up with him to get him through the night on less sleep. We'll see what happens then. He falls asleep on the bottle (something that I found out - while I was sick and others were caring for him they put him to sleep with the bottle, so that's where he got the idea!) I have been trying to pull it out when he starts to fall asleep and he usually wakes up and fusses so I put it back in and we do this until he is either asleep or finished his bottle. Is this a good idea? Should I do this at night too. If so, will I run the risk of him waking more (if that's even possible)? I have tried giving it to him earlier, but he wont take any then and will wait until it's time to sleep. He will sometimes take a little downstairs before we start his sleep routine. Any ideas on how to get him to take a full feed here?
Julie
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Hi Annie-
Yes, the doctor prescribed Zantac for Ben's reflux. We take it twice a day. It seems to be working alright, but we still have grumpy late afternoons/evenings. I wonder if taking care of his overtiredness will help with this too.
I've been keeping track of our schedule for almost a week. At first I was automatically trying to push my own 3 hour EASY routine, and day 1 went very well! Days 2 and 3 were miserable, though. So, then I just wrote down what we did on a day when Ben took the lead. It looked like this: (Ben had gone to bed around 9:30 the night before)
E 3 AM
S 3:45 (2h 45 m but part of night time sleep)
E 6:30
A 7:30
S 8:00 (30m)
E 8:30
A 8:45
E 10:00
S 10:45 (1h 5m but was up 3 times and needed to be moved from bed to swing)
E 12 PM
S 1:30 (2h 20m but only if I didn't put him down)
E 3:50
A 4:20
S 6:50 (20m)
E 7:10
A 7:35
S 9:30 (down for the night again)
Talk about crazy! Then, today, I let Ben lead again, but I watched even more closely for his signs thinking I'd probably missed some the day before. We ended up following a pretty good EASY routine, but check out my sleep times. I had to break the prop rules to get him to sleep during the day: (Ben went to bed at 9:00 the night before)
E 2:15 AM
S 2:45
E 5:45
S 6:00
E 8:00
A 8:15 (30 m wind down)
S 9:00 (Oops, we fell asleep on the couch together. That's why it lasted so long.)
E 12:00 PM
A 12:30 (45 m wind down)
S 1:30 (in his bouncy chair...no bouncing or vibrate, though)
E 3:15
A 3:45 (45m wind down with tummy medicine)
S 4:30 (in carrier)
E 5:15
A 5:45 (lights out activity in his chair, then 15 m wind down)
S 7:00 (in carrier)
E 7:45
A 8:30 (30m wind down)
S 9:30 (in bed for the night)
For the first schedule I tried to follow all of BW guidelines about sh/p and letting baby put himself to sleep. It really didn't work very well- there was no pattern to our routine that day, because he cried through wind down and into the following eating times. I'm not sure he can put himself to sleep yet. I don't think his reflux helps either.
For the second schedule I let him fall asleep in my arms every time. So, which is more important? Which should I establish first? The routine or the sh/p independence technique. For sanity's sake, I'd like to get the routine down (I still do the same wind down routine), then work on getting rid of his props, because I know he already has some. What are your thoughts?
Thanks for your help! Jen
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Hi Jen,
I would DEFINATLY say personally that the sh/pat is much more important. The sooner we all stop trying to get a routine under control, the better. My LO is almost 4 monhts and try and try as I did to get a routine, I can only now see glimers of hope. He is going down easier now but still some naps are short and erratic. I don't know if it was all the comforting and sh/patting and swaddling that I did from week 6 but I would like to think my efforts there are paying off a little. You ultimately can't make him do what you want when you want as he is still so young but having said that sleep training is something that he will start getting eventually and then the routine will come.
Although we are far from on a perfect EASY I can really say that the advice that mothers with older LO'S give here is really true: it DOES get better and it is really best to just go with it. Everyone says sleep starts getting better between 4 and 6 months (providing you make an effort too which you are) and honestly I believe it.
Maybe go over to the reflux board and chat to them too. They are are experts on it. I have posted there as well and it seems that trying to get EASY going is like smashing ones head against a wall until reflux is under control. I would wait a bit for the MEDS to start working, try to keep him upright after feeds for at least 30 mins and try elevating cot and pram so he isn't lying flat. Remember: he is crying from frustration of not veing able to get to sleep and discomfort from the acid.
You sound like me....a perfectionist and I went into this motherhood thing with all intentions to 'get it right' but I know now it just doesn't work like that.
I think your Ben is only 7 weeks right? Still soo young. Don't even worry about props yet. Maybe try at all costs not to let him fall asleep in your arms too much but I would say try swaddling and a dummy. Annie - I sooo agree with you about the dummy. Has saved us until now although I will wean in the next little while.
Jen, just do what you have to do to get him to sleep and keep sh/patting too or try just a firm hand on his back and chest. See what works for Ben. You still need time to get to know what works for him and if that means a few 'mistakes' along the way then so be it. You sound like an aware and intelligent mother so don't worry...there is plenty of time in a month or 2 or even 3 to change things and remove props etc...
Hope I have said at least something to maybe help and haven't repeated anything anyone else has said (didn't read the whole thread! ;)
You are doing a fantastic job! We all are....
Michelle
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Hi Michelle, so you think I should work hardest on his sh/p wind down? If I follow the rules: swaddle, paci (which is already a prop for him), sh/p until droopy eyed, then bed; he'll scream the entire time! We miss feedings because he's still awake and fighting. It's the putting him down that wakes him right up. I've even tried continuing the sh/p like Tracy talked about, but his eyes still pop open and stay open with screaming if I put him down awake- always have.
I already use the other reflux suggestions you made. It's pretty much under control already. He's finally sleeping during the day again, albeit sporadically.
I think I didn't mean "establish a routine" as one of my choices. I meant watch Ben closely and follow his lead, but take it easy on the sleep guidelines. So our day my look like ESESAEASESAES (a mess), but it goes smoothly. If you still think I should stick to the guidelines, how do I handle the crying for an hour to and hour and a half during wind down and into the next feeding? Will it only be like that for a day or two?
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Hi Jn,
I so know where you are coming from. Been there too. Definatly put effort into all of those things you mentioned. I am only a couple of months ahead of you experience wise but I have to sayit is just a matter if sticking it out till it finally starts sticking...which it sometime will. I know it is pure hell the crying for hours and hours but try to be strong and stick to your guns. I don't know what type of person you are but I am pretty sensitive and tend to ge tvery emotional. I used to cry often and thought I was losing the plot. It is only in the last 4 weeks or so that I have found the strength to be calm and know that I am in control and doing the right thing........at about the same time I also noticed that I was FINALLY understanding Ben's cues better and somehow after months of confusion....I knew what he wanted and when he was tired etc.... And around that time too....naps started drastically improving with less crying and him falling asleep by himself (sometimes....and when not PU/PD works well) Shhh pat is too overstimulating for us now and he is physically too strong and fights and rolls around. But for you: persist with sh/pat for now.
Anyway, hope you are NOT as emotional as me and can handle it better. I know it is pure hell when your LO just WILL NOT SLEEP DESPITE ALL YOUR EFFORTS but just try to be strong and do what Tracy sugests if you can which is to spend the ENTIRE nap time in the crib trying to settle and when feeding time comes then get him up. Having said that (which is the 'correct' thing to do), at 7 weeks I couldn't deal with itand would get him up with the attitude that I would just try again in 20 mins or so and if he didn't want to sleep just go with it. It depends how much your patience/fuse is really.
I would love to say a day or 2 but from my personal experience it has taken the best part of 4 montzhs and been a VERY long process. All I can say is it WILL happen but when is anyones guess but it really won't be long now. You are more than half way through the stage for sure. :)
You will find too that you will suddenly in the next month or so just somehow know what he wants/needs.
Just keep doing waht you are doing....I am living proof that there is hope...I promise you!
HUGS
Michelle
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Hi,
I'm up early today. I think my dd is going through her 6 months growth spurt and for 2 night she woke up around 1-2 am for a feed but yesterday she didn't wake up for her usual feed around 5-6am but today she did. Since she ate at 1:50am, I was pretty sure she was not hungry but more habitual waking. I tried to have her go back to sleep but after some time, I gave up and I tried to give her a feed at 5:45 but she wasn't eating, just using the breast as a pacifier so I quickly stop her and back with pacifier and blankie and in the crib, it took some time but she's asleep. The problem now is I can't sleep no more (I'm not a good sleeper so being up at 5:30 for 30-40min, I can't sleep after). :'( Oh well, might as well do something fun :P Not to worry, this is only a temporary problem (I hope). She was doing so well, going through all night in some days :'( Ah well, we'll be back to normal in a couple of days, I hope.
Julie, I'm sorry to say but I think that giving him the bottle in bed and letting him fall asleep on the bottle has made your problem worse. Now he wakes up because he doesn't have the bottle in his mouth and won't sleep unless he has it, this is also true for the night. I know you had problem before at night but for some days, you seem to be getting better but then he started to eat less in the morning because of the night feed and then you fed him later and somebody gave him the bottle to the crib. Babies like to suck so obviously he likes that but he is too young to put the bottle back in is mouth if he wakes up. You'll have to stop that if you want him to sleep better, maybe tried the pacifier instead. You might have to put the pacifier back again if he wakes up but at least he won't expect a feed and will take less time to put the pacifier then to give him a feed. When I told you to tried to make sure that he doesn't feed before bed, I really want to say to make sure he doesn't fall asleep on it. So for now, if he only want the bottle before going to bed, give him the bottle at that time but make sure he doesn't fall asleep on it. Do whatever you have to do so he doesn't sleep with the bottle, sit him, rob his back, take the bottle out of his mouth if he sleep. As soon as he wakes up, give him back his bottle, but do the same process everytime he fall asleep with the bottle. Then after the feed is finished, do your sleep ritual (but he might be asleep by then) and give him the pacifier and maybe a blankie to sleep. He can't get a bottle but he will be able to get the blankie. Trust me, I had to do this for my dd at 3 months, because she was use to sleeping on the breast but she wouldn't take the pacifier before her 5 months and everything improve at that time. For the night, I didn't do all that because you don't want to wake him up by all this rubbing, sitting, taking off the bottle. Just feed him at night, and then back to bed with pacifier and blankie. Then after you can work to have feed, then activity and sleep. Sometimes, my EASY looks more like AEAS and this is good as long as the baby doesn't associate eat to sleep. I know this is hard on you because it's hard on every mom but must be extra hard on you with MS, you also need your rest. The rest is important to you as not to make you worse, so use up all the help from your family and friend but put your rules on them so that they don't make it worse for you when they leave. Let me know how it goes. Lots of hugs for you.
Jen, I agree with Michelle about letting your baby learn to sleep by himself but still the routine is really important. I used to have Emily feed everytime she wakes up and really stick to the order of EAS and this was not working, like you seem to do. You need to think more like putting in place the eating aspect, so let's say every 3 hours and stick to every 3 hours during the day. Then you include A and S, just make sure that you have some A times in between E and S, even if it's just 5 min. At least that way, Ben won't associate eating to sleeping. Your routine will probably look more like EASAEAS, mine always do and it's fine like that. The first routine you wrote down, Ben was eating too often, so no good feed. The second one was better. Was he only sleeping in that position or was any music, swinging or were you walking with him with the stroller for him to fall asleep or was it only the position that make him fall asleep? If it's more the position, then maybe the reflux is still bothering him and you might want do as Michelle as suggested for the reflux and maybe talk to the reflux board, and maybe he need to be seated to sleep for some time. My thoughts is nothing wrong with him sleeping in a seating position, just put what you use to sit him in his room if you can't get the crib to adjust to a good seating position. If it's not related to the reflux, then do as Michelle said, have him sleep in his crib with pacifier, sh/pat. Don't forget they need to suck and pacifier is great for that need. Don't worry about getting use to the pacifier, my dd only started to use it back at 5 months and she sometimes don't want it for sleep now, she prefer her blankie. Also, tried not to let him fall asleep on you. I would work both (routine and independent sleep) at the same time. I think you have more a problem for your routine as you think more of it as a strick EAS like I use to, so think of it more like any variation of EAS, EASAEAS. I think he is able to go 3 hours in between feed. Also, I think it would be better to make sure he doesn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time during the day. Let me know how it goes.
Both of you are doing a great job!
Annie
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Thanks Annie....you too! And what a little cutie Emily is! I totally second what you said about the eating. If all else fails Jen, just make sure he is eating at the right times according to the right EASY (2-2 1/2 hours) I know it is tempting to think 'well what now....no sleep...ok let's feed again' but try try try not too unless he really has genuine hunger.
Hmmmm.all easily said :(
Good luck....gotta go and tend to him
Michelle
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oops, I've just realise, Michelle and Jen, that you had time to post before I had to push the button post but it still make sense. Thank you Michelle for your comment about Emily, your Ben is pretty cute too. Anyway isn't 7 weeks be able to do at least 2.5-3 hours between feed. Should check that Jen since your are BF, it is important to make sure he is really hungry enough as to make sure he does it the really good stuff at the end (hind milk I think it is name). I might not be able to come and see how everybody is going before 36 hours from now since I have party, people coming at home.
See you
Annie
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Thanks for the great advice, guys! Ben slept 11 hours last night!! So, we had a later start this AM. Woo hoo! I'll keep you posted about how things go for the next few days. Today's routine looks like EASAS so far. We'll see how it goes for the rest of the day.
Thanks! Jen
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You might consider whether or not you are putting him down in his crib too soon. My DD started the screaming around 6-7 weeks. I didn't realize that the first yawn did not mean bedtime! I had to wait for little tired whimpers. Also, consider starting reading to Ben, in order to have a longer wind down routine. The screaming/fighting sleep, for us, was because she wasn't ready--not because she didn't like to sleep (she was always good at night).
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We'll try that. It's hard once the screaming starts to remember that Ben isn't trying to fight sleep. He's just not ready for sleep. You say your lo started screaming around 6-7 weeks. When did she stop? OR Has she stopped? :)
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Hi I am new to this board and as a 1st time mother of a 9month old spirited baby am glad to read I am not alone! REading some of your posts is like so uncanny, Maya also fights naps to the extreme if not at home and in the dark! and we also have had the problem of 13 and 13.5hrs sleep at night because of refusal to nap in the day, early bedtimes (my family think it is hilarious, that she is in bed by 5pm some days!) and of course then early starts to the day. I am so drained and to top it off my niece has just had a baby girl (8wks) and she sleeps all the time and has been sleeping through since 6 wks!! I love my lo with all my heart but she breaks it sometimes. After months of trying to get her into a routine I am still no nearer, did any of you find being spirited they needed less A time than recommended? as for the last 3 days ( big achievement believe me!) I have found when she has had 12hrs she is ready to go back down after 2hrs 45mins and I have had more success with the 2nd nap if I keep the A time less also. Her tired signs are impossible to read. After months also of being guaranteed her falling asleep at bedtime with sheer exhaustion and staying asleep we are now battling with bedtimes and frequent NW.
I just find my days are so long with Maya as she is never happy (due to OT) she grumps all day and I frequently wonder if I could have done anything different while pregnant or since although even the nt she was born she cried all night long. She is so miserable and cant be left alone to play for 5 mins it really is exhausting keeping her occupied, I feel like it is my fault she is not happy which depresses me so. Anyway I best go.
Rachael xxx
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Hi Rachael, I'm glad you found the group too. You are definitely not alone! My ds is at the 7 week mark and is supposed to start smiling any day now. He seems so grumpy, though, (probably from OT) that I often wonder if his first smile at me will be delayed. I wonder if he ever feels happy enough to smile which is just heartbreaking.
I've found much help here, mostly encouragement to get my babe to bed more often. We've been working on it for a few days, and he seems like a much more content baby. Something that's helping us...during wind down, Ben seemed to be unable to close his eyes to even blink. He just looked wired, because he couldn't break his concentration from his surroundings. Ive been draping a light blanket over my shoulder when sitting with him before naps like a nursing shawl. So, his vision is blocked. (I know Tracy wrote about using your hand to shield their eyes, but Ben would either become excited by looking at the lines my fingers make or would frantically try to look "around" my hand.) He calms much more quickly and accepts sleep more willingly! Even when I take it off before laying him down, his attention has been refocused from the world to sleep. He melts right to sleep. Mind you, I still have to time everything right to meet his wind down rhythm.
Anyway, welcome!
-Jen
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Hi everyone,
For all the moms of the little ones ... have you tried a swaddler that stays closed with velcro? I know Violet still managed to wrangle her little hands out of it, but it did help. It kept her arms close to her body and made it much easier to move her when she was sleepy or asleep. We weren't trying the BW techniques then, but we tried everything else. (Even the props don't work with Spritied LOs!) Rachel, my LO was awake and unhappy for the first 23 of her 24 hours of life. (Don't believe that nurse when she tells you the baby will drop off for a good long sleep!)
An update ... our best days have been those when Violet gets up at 6:30am, and I follow a 4-hour EASY pretty strictly throughout the day. It has helped a lot to stop schlepping her all over town to reduce her overstimulation. She's now taking three naps (yahoo!), but she'll usually cut the morning or afternoon nap short. What should I do? It sometimes helps to go back in and shush-pat her back to sleep. Other times, she still seems tired, but she won't drop off again. Do I leave her in the crib? Get her up and keep the activity really low key? She'll do the "hey you, come get me cry" pretty continuously if I just leave her there. Could this just be her pattern?
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JenandBen--To answer you question, yes, my LO (4 months, 4th week) has finally stopped crying when it comes to sleep. Well, it's very minimal, at most. Here's how we got to this point:
Around 9 weeks, I think, I discovered that I was putting her down too soon, like I said. So, I waited for tired coos and then did a longer winddown that including reading 1 or 2 books. Then, we shush/patted like crazy.
Then, last week, I decided it was time to wean from the swaddle and paci, because I wanted her to be more independent. It's taken a week, but she now 1.) sleeps unswaddled, 2.) opts to suck her fingers instead of a pacifier--something she can control (and I was trying from almost day one to inhibit but now accept), and 3.) uses a stuffed bunny to snuggle. And, this last nap (she's sleeping as I type), there was no crying and only about 10 seconds of fussing; in all, it took about 2-3 minutes for her to fall asleep, and I was tippy-toeing out of the room as she was finally drifting off. (We're still working on me leaving while her eyes are open.)
To get to this point, I had to accept the fact that she was going to cry. And she did. The first nap without swaddle and paci, she cried for an HOUR! It lessened each time. Around the fourth day, I started to feel really positive. I tried PU/PD, but it made her too mad (as it does for many spritied LOs), so I just stood with her, kept my hands on her, and used comforting words, like "You can do it...you're okay...." I only picked her up if I felt it was really necessary, since putting her down always seemed to break her heart.
I'm not sure if I could've taugt independent sleep this way when she was younger, but I wish I'd have tried. My advice would be to give shush/pat a go...but gradually lessen that amount of assistance you give your LO in getting to sleep.
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Hi to all,
Welcome to you Rachael and let me tell you that you couldn't have done anything different during your pregnancy to change the way your baby is. Some baby need less or more A time to sleep well, just go with your baby. Since she doesn't show any tired sign, just put her to bed when she seem to be sleeping better (I mean after the amount of A time that you have noticed her sleeping better). I do have to watch the clock for mine since she doesn't show much tired signs and that does work better, but mine need more A time then recommended.
Violetmum, my Lo is sometime cutting her naps short and this is more frequent lately but I've tried sh/pat to increase it but that doesn't work so I either let her in her crib until she cry or get her up if I find she had a good nap. If she has a bad nap in the morning, usually the afternoon naps is better or she will get to bed earlier. I prefer that then fighting with her, specially her being a good "naper" in general. I did find that if I decided to put her back to sleep with sh/pat or putting back her paci, it would work better if I would go as soon as she would wake up. If I would wait too long, then she would be fully awake and wouldn't go back to sleep.
Annie
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Hi guys, things been really busy with us, so had NO time to hop on here!!
With us... Eden is dropping her 3rd catnap, so bedtimes vary from 6-730 depending on whether or not she's had it. Her spiritedness is coming out more and more as she shouts happily at everyone, and was crawling at 6 months having been commando crawling since four! So no quiet life for us ;)
Still don't have much time as need to dream feed in 10 mins, but just thought I'd say that I found A time to be much reduced with my two until they were about 12 weeks old, so for difficult naps and nights I would first try to reduce A time, but of course every babe is different!
Eden also needed lots of wind down initially, with very consistant sleep cues - now it literally takes me 30 seconds (useful as her spirited sister is downstairs!) as she gets annoyed with me for tyring to interfere with her going to sleep! So hang on in there, you are laying good groundwork!
Sorry it's so short :( hopefully life will settle down again soon!
Lorna xxx
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Hi.. my name is Erica, mother to a SPIRITED (Caps because its extreme) baby who will be 5mths on the 7th of Nov.
I thought I was just a bad mother who didn't have a clue when I tried what friends and family suggested to help soothe my baby. I could never get him to sleep... there were MANY MANY days where his total sleep time would be 1hr in a 24hr period... I am not lying. But you could tell he was extremely tired. I would often cry and beg him to just please go to sleep! It didn't make any sense that he was so tired, but just wouldn't close his eyes and go to sleep. I told my husband that I had often thought about getting a divorce and or just packing my bags in the middle of the night and leaving Lucas with him. I thought I was the cause of all Lucas' problems since I am the one home with him. I hated wanting to be anywhere my son wasn't- it broke my heart, but on the other end, any time I was around him all he would do is was cry from being tired, but he wouldnt sleep. I wasn't getting any sleep and I was starting to hate my little child.
2 weeks ago was awful! It was about 9pm and we had already been trying to get him to sleep for an hour. He began his crying at 830pm and just wouldnt stop. It would get louder and louder. After an hour of it I couldnt take it- I hopped into the car and drove for two hours! When I came home DH said he cried for almost 3 hours total before falling asleep about 10mins before I walked in the door. That is just horrible that someone so new to the world can cry like that. It was making me hate myself because I couldn't give my son whatever it was that he wanted
Well, I had found The Happiest Baby on the Block and tried those methods. It worked wonderfully for 62 solid hours. After that..nada! I some how managed to find out about BW this week and went to go buy the book but couldnt find it but thankfully the library had it. Now I am trying to read it and use it properly before it has to go back on Nov 1. So far, the past 36 hours have been GREAT. Hoping not to jinx it
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Now that I think about it, my little monkey wasn't even easy as a newborn. I guess I have just blocked it out because it was horrible then too. I remember when my sister came out to visit while my DH was gone for 6 weeks (when son was 2wks-8wks) We had to take turns trying to get Lucas to sleep because we would wear out before he did. She commented that he was difficult to get to sleep like I had been telling her on the phone all the time. Now I remember all the nights my DH and I sat and tried to rock him to sleep, the nights of putting him in the car seat and driving around until he fell asleep only to reawaken the minute the car turned off. The nights of having to put him in the stroller and wheel him around the house. The days where I would cry and plead with him to just take a nap so I could shower or god forbid pee. I was so angry... I even screamed once :( I can't believe I am just remembering all this stuff and it was just 2-4 months ago
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WOW - you surely do have a spirited one! Let us know how you get on. I'm not on here as much as I was :( not enough hours! I really hope BW works for you!
Lorna x
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Hi nosleepbaby.....I feel for you. I can relate. Welcome to the club of having been given the gift of an amazing little charachter and being so freaked out and pushed to your limit that you feel your soul is being ripped out. (maybe a little extreme but that is sometimes how I feel)
I am sorry I can't offer a total sucess story and say everything will be great as we are only still in month 5, but I can say that without the baby whisperer I don't know what I would have done. Although we are still battling naps, feedings and so many other things, the hard work with sh/pat and windowns and everything else that I have done in the last 3 months has shown SOME improvements and given us a bit of direction. Although we have routine problems and I have been weak lately and given up, I thing BW is an excellent philosophy and has many good ideas in a very difficult time when it is almost impossible to 'get it right' or even know what is right with a new baby. We have to have some ideas and direction and although it is no quick fix in my experience, it is an extremely helpful set of guidelies and logic.
You are not at all a bad mum. This is the pot calling the kettle black but the fact that you even think that indicates that you are sensitive and loving to your baby and a smart person.
I know the hell you ahve felt and are feeling but I notice from your posts that you say 'the days when we rocked him to sleep, I have blocked it out' If you think about it, things have probably progressed....not gotten EASIER but progressed. I know that is the case with us. Hang in there.
I know I have ot been a help but can offer support.
I believe that we will look back and really reap the rewards of a spirited baby. Try to think when things are bad and he won't sleep how every second he is awake he is learnign something about the world that other babies are missing by sleeping. It helps me. I have a friend who had a spirited LO who hardly slept for the first year. She was constantly in tears from overtiredness but she was talking by month 9 and now at 3 years is she totally independant, happy to play alone and has little need to be constantly entertained.
My point is...it is hard for us now but from what I have heard....it becomes easier later when many other toddlers are hard to deal with.
Anyway, sorry for rambling but I just wanted to reach out my arms and give big
(((((((((HUGS)))))))))
Michelle
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Hi Erica,
I do hope everything will improve with BW, it did help me, my husband and our daughter, even though we still have rough time once in a while. It took me until my dd was 5 months to say that I really enjoyed her because before that I was going crazy. I did also cry, plead and scream :'(
Lots of hugs
Annie
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Things are improving somewhat.. a little better each day, although some minor setbacks. I will say that I don't tell him I am going to sell him to the Gypsies any longer so that has to be good.. right? lol
Just a question... are "Spirited" ones even difficult as they grow older? Or will working with them now turn them into textbook or Angel babies?
And thank you all for the warm welcome. I hope to learn a lot from you all
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Can I pop on here? Boy, do I wish I took the quiz earlier! Just as I thought...Brooke (4 mos tomorrow) is Spirited/Textbook. It's so obvious, but I was just thinking it was me and something I was doing wrong. Her spirited side rears its head first thing in the morning (she's so loud), at sleepy time (hates being held, wants to settle on her own, but then gets mad), and feeding time (when she thinks she can hold the bottle) and pretty much most of the rest of the day - LOL! I actually thought she was going to crawl today - it was ridiculous. Boy does she let you know if she likes or dislikes something! Whoa - I never knew a newborn could be so loud!!!
I wish I knew there was this support thread earlier in her life (like at 3 weeks on when I cried all day everyday). I should have known - is it genetic - my toddler is Angel/spirited. Although her spirited side is now coming out at 2 yrs old. I too at times would say I was going to sell poor Brooke to the gypsies! :) So glad I have BW though. I know it would have been a worse hell without it (is that even proper grammar - I'm so tired from the NW). These boards have been so supportive and I am thankful everyday for them. So happy now knowing there is a board with other mothers of spirited lo's who understand. All are helpful, but feel good to talk to those who live it - iykwim.
Robyn :)
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Welcome Robyn. Hope you will find good support here.
Erica, I sure hope they (spirited babies) improve a bit when they get older but not sure about that.
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Hi all
I'm Sarah, this is my first time posting. my DD is 7 weeks and very spirited Lo :D I can relate to everything thats been posted here and I'm SO relieved as I was feeling like a complete failure and very alone. today my little one took 2 short naps and one long one then bed early this after 2 days of almost no naps and a very sleep deprived baby. I'm going to start an easy routine and pretty nervous about it as when I tried the routines before she was having none of it and cried all day till my neighbors gave out. She hates being put down for more then 10 Min's or so, so the need for a routine is imperative as I can't get anything done .
any advice ? look forward to charting with you all
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Hi Sarah - welcome! That's how mine was at that age too. Not sure I have any advice except hoping you have a baby bjorn. Mine took naps in it until I felt like I could get her over the OT. Once she seemed rested (after a few days of that and early bed, I started the easy routine. It immediately made a difference and I felt so much better. Of course, we are having difficulty now, but that's another story. Good luck - you will find great support here...I have!
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Hi Sarah and welcome,
My LO did start to wanted to be in my arm all the time around that age too and I went along with it until someone told me about BW when she was 3 months and I started to put a routine. My advice is to begin as soon as possible for the routine. This is my experience: I was letting Emily sleep on the breast and keeping her on me for sleep before EASY and when I started EASY, I try to have her sleep in her crib without BF and it was really hard. I think that I should have started with no BF but letting her sleep in my arm and established a good routine and then go with putting her in her crib to sleep. You can try the following (as it did help us with Emily) : swaddle your baby and hold arms and legs if necessary, try a pacifier and put her down to sleep as soon as she seemed tired. I did find out, after some time of writing down every little information about the routine, (ie: how long it took her to fall asleep after x amount of A time, etc) the best time to put her to bed since she doesn't have much of tired signs or can even be too early. It is still true at 7 months except that I have to adjust a bit since she can stay up longer. Good luck and come back if you need support!
For the one that had to change time this weekend, how did you do? We didn't so great since Emily decided this weekend not to go back to sleep after her 6:30am feed so she was up this sunday (on the change of time) at 5:30 (being 6:30 for her clock). All the others days for the last month, she was sleeping until 7:30-8:00 after 6:30 feed which would have be good. :'( Let's say that we are not at home so I hope it will be better at home and I will also try a W2S around 4:30am to try to push the wake up later. I'll give news later about that.
Annie
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Hi Annie,
I thought the time difference went without a hitch. The first few days were normal (never good anyway) but the last 4 nights Ben has been waking up at 5 or 6am. I am sure it is because it is lighter outside although the room is as dark as we can manage :'(
God it'Äs hard! So hard to know if the early wakings are due to that or someting else!
Michelle
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Hi all, It's been awhile since I've posted, but things seem to be running much more smoothly here than before so I wanted to post an update. Ben is finally sleeping during the day...still not in his crib, but we'll work on that next. He's sleeping so much better at night too now that he's resting during the day! We're taking about 2 to 3 1 hour naps and 1 cat nap during the day. I still can't put him down to bed earlier than 8 or 9 unless I want to be awake for the next day at 3 or 4. BUT he's only waking every 3 hours at night now. Before we were struggling with 1 to 2 hour stretches. I think, because he's more rested, his tired signs are much clearer now. Perhaps it's because he's actually happy when he's awake, rather than trying to distinguish tired cries from fussy or angry cries.
He's eating every 3 hours consistently and is even smiling and cooing now!
So, the next challenge I think will be assisting him to sleep less. I'm afraid if I just let him cry a bit, he'll never stop! He seems to work himself up to a "gag" cry then be unable to calm himself back down. I've tried sh/p in the crib, but he cries right through it. He only stops when he's picked up, but pu/pd is too OS for him. Any testimonials for things that've worked for you or ideas would be appreciated! Ben is almost 3 months.
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Jenandben - no help here, but wanted to say that I feel for you. I am a wimp...mine is 4 mos old and we are still working on going to sleep for naps alone. My winddown is soooo long...it's ridiculous. I did also find that shh/pat didn't work for us and pu/pd is way to OS. So, we are going to work on a modified version as soon as we return from a trip home. Glad to hear things have improved a bit!
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Hi all,
My name is Trish, and I have a 4wk old Spirited baby named Wyatt. I just finished reading the BW last night, and thank the heavens for it! The description fit Wyatt to a T. After my 1st week check, my pedatrician recommended the cry it out, they need to exercise. OK, made sense... Well, we hated our crib, loved the boppy and sleeping in it on the couch all night long!! Finished the book, used the tips on helping to self soothe. After our 8 feed, we picked up and layed down 15 times, 11:30- 7 times, and 3:30- 7 times, and at 5:30- 4 times. Its working! How long do you all felt that it took for the babies to become confortable with easy?
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Hi Everyone may I join, I am Ez, and I wish I found this site 6 months ago.
I have a very spirited baby (who has just woken again!!) I have been Bf and just started weaning, and giving 2 bottles a day. I am desperate for a routine as until 2 nights ago I have been woken every 2/3 hrs, And I have done it all alone.
I want to follow the EASY routine it looks like it works. I am confused as 3 o'clock seems to early for dinner or am I getting it wrong?
I have loads more questions I hope you more experienced parents can help me with. I started leaving him to settle himself recently and slowly its working. Trapped wind was always a big problem but now he can sit up he seems to be able to burp himself more. And if he eats when he wakes and doesn't eat straight before sleep hopefully this will get better. He did need to BF to sleep but I need this to stop. Slowly I am winning.
He is such a happy boy, easy to make him laugh, sometime when i am not trying, and so inquisitive, but just so overtired.
Ez longing for 8 hrs sleep in a row!!!!
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Hi to all and welcome to Ez and Trish,
Jen, you seem to be going better. As far as what did work, mostly time for me but also swaddle at 3 months holding arms and legs if necessary. Also, sh/pat until my arm was so sore but mostly pacifier did help a lot. My lo was sleeping at the breast and had a good need to suck so I guess pacifier was a good thing. Do a wind down routine because might not help now but will help later. You can rock him or whatever until he's almost asleep and then put him in the crib. He might be so sleepy at that time that he won't mine as much.
Trish, it's good that EASY is working for you but are you doing PU/PD at 4 weeks. If so, this is too early and you should do sh/pat instead.
Ez, with EASY you don't have really dinner time until they have solid well in place. But at 6 months, I imagined that you have started introducing solid. At 6 months, this was our routine:
E: 7:00 BF
then 8:00: solid
S: 9:00
E: 11:00 BF
then 12:30:solid
S: 13:30
E: 3:00 BF
then 5:00 : solid
E: 7:00 BF, then in bed for the night.
The time may vary depending on your baby and you but I try to keep solids around the same time and BF can be more or less before solid depending at what time she gets up in the morning. Sleep time might be different depending if your baby stay up longer or not. Emily would sleep 1-2 hours for naps but didn't do catnap past 4 months but a catnap can be in between BF at 3:00 and the dinner and push the dinner a little bit later, I guess. I'm not sure if they still do a catnap at 6 months. You can check EASY for 6-12months on EASY board to have other variation. So right now, milk is more important but you can start to implement a breakfast, lunch and dinner with solid for later. My lo is not doing her full night, she will wake up in the early morning to BF but I don't mind much since she started to past that until we change time and now she is all screw up.
Michelle, I hope Ben get better but I'm pretty sure it's the fact that it is lighter outside since Emily is also waking up earlier. In some place they don't change time because it might disturbe the cows or other farm animals, they never thought about babies (and moms too) :P
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Hi again! it's new mom Trish..... We have been doing the pu/pd for 2 nights along w/ the shh/pt and it does work for me at night even though he is just 4 wks old. My challange is the day time. He is actually sleeping in his crib... 15 minutes now! ;D Whoo-hoo! How do you all do activity time during the day?? It is hit or miss for me? Maybe once he will sit in his boppy and self amuse. Today, even after an 1 1/2 hour nap he sat for 5 minutes and then fussed and I went up to lay him down, and now he is asleep. I feel like he gets overstimulated or tired really fast. (well, if I am reading the signs) I do not have a lot of toys, just 1 monkey and the paper with the lines (not together). I mean he is only 4 weeks, is this normal???
Trish
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completely normal Trish, don't worry....save your energy and let him have as much time alone time as possible. If he doesn't cry....leave him! I didn't understand how lucky I was back then when my LO was your LO's age and now he is almost 5 months I can barely leave the room. He wants me all the time and constant entertaining.
Annie - wow, sounds liek you have done such a good job. Did you use Sh/pat? Where do you live may I ask? Is it spain or Italy?
Michelle
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I didn't do sh/pat, I just try to put her to bed later and I also did gave her extra milk in a bottle beside the BF to make sure she had enough milk for the night.
I live in Canada, on the east coast of Canada. Not as nice as Italy or Spain (never been there but seem really nice), but it does have a nice view, even with lots lots of snow in winter time. This is coming too fast (cold, snow, snow suit). Don't think Emily will like snow suit much, but no baby likes them.
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Lucas is doing extremely well now. He put himself on the 4 hour schedule, but he is still waking once in the middle of the night for a bottle and will not go to bed until he has one. Have tried to do everything else (change diaper, soothe, ect) but he will start screaming and crying until he has a bottle
He has dropped his third nap though but he takes 2 great naps for 2 hours each and is in bed by 7pm
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Well, it's been better here lately. Although I don't think it could have gotten worse. We survived a trip home for memorial services for a friend's father. I'm surprised with my spirited lo and toddler, I thought we were in for it. My toddler is angel/spirited though so we can usually keep it to angel! The baby was great...can't believe it. Granted she spent more time in the bjorn than normal as I didn't have the arms for her any longer, but all in all, she was a champ. She even slept in her pack 'n play which she will not go into at home...it's like she thinks it's a prison - I think her problem there is that she can't see enough when in it. That must be the prob with the car and the stroller too then - LOL!
She had her 4 mo appt yesterday. She's 11lbs12oz. Sleepy today...shots and all. I think it's probably the tylenol too. She went down for her nap this morning like nothing! Poor lo - she's working the shots out I guess. Get this - she got up at 11:45 from nap...ate at 12 and started to fall asleep at the bottle. That's never happened during the day before...she must be pooped.
She's been better at night as I now feed at 3 or 4 am waking. What a dummy...I thought that she was waking out of habit so I give her the paci and she'd go back out until 5:30 or so when she'd be up every 15 min until wakey time. She had gone through the night without eating so I figured she was fine. Turns out...hunger - so I starved her for a few days until someone here told me that she was probably hungry since we don't DF. Weird though 'cause she had gone so many nights 12 hrs with no feed. Oh well...now I know! So she goes 8 hrs, eats, then back down. One wake at 5:30 (I know this one is habit now!) and up between 6:30 and 7:00. Good, right?
Glad to hear others are having some success.
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So how much sleep should Ben be getting altogether? Your babies seem to sleep way more than he does! We only sleep at night from around 9 to 6 or 7 the next AM. I'm not sure he would sleep longer...
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I think the range is 14-18hrs a day. Someone correct me if that's wrong. B is 18 weeks and gets 11 hrs at night and approx. 4 1/2 during the day so 15 1/2. Not sure it's the magic number though as we are getting NWs here and there.
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Hi,
Jen, like Robyn said, the range is 14-18 hrs a day. My lo will do 14-15 hrs max and this is more than when she was younger. My lo did improve her total sleeping time slowly as we improve the EASY routine and change gradually her bedtime to earlier (around 7-8pm instead of 11pm) and that she learn to fall asleep with less help. Probably with time, the sleeping time will improve. It might help to change the bedtime to earlier gradually, maybe 10-15 min at a time. One thing that did help me was to try to put my baby back to bed if she would wake up before 7am to feed, you might gain 1 more hour of sleep for him in the early morning. I feed her in her bedroom if she wakes up before 7am and I don't talk to her, no light and doesn't change diaper and then back in her crib. After a couple days of that, she was sleeping for maybe an extra 1-1.5 hours. Good luck! You've done a great job so far.
Annie
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When you say 11 hours a night, are you subtracting feedings your baby woke up for? Ben goes down at 9 and wakes for the day at 6 or 7, but he's up about 3 three times for 45 minutes to an hour each. So, he's only getting around 8 hours, right?
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When I say 11 hrs I mean that she usually goes down a little before 7:30 (always sleeping by 7:30) and then wakes up for the day at around 6:47 each morn. However, she does eat once at 3 or 4 am...though I'm lucky...she yells for me and I pop in and feed her (usually only about 15 min) and she goes back in the crib and goes to sleep almost immediately (I'm always back in my room within 20-25 min). That's why I say 11 hrs.
Now...we have had some 5:30 yells for me...usually only needs a plug and she's out. Since this takes only 2 seconds I don't count it. We do not DF, so she goes about 8 hrs straight without eating or waking (well...she stirs as I see her on the monitor, but never really wakes and doesn't need me). She's gone many hrs without eating at night from very early days though, so don't stress out over that :) Plus Ben is younger than Brooke.
I think if you move bedtime back you'd be surprised...I was. Remember sleep begets sleep. You have nothing to lose by putting him down a little earlier and see what happens. It might solve your NWs.
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Hey guys... I feel like each day w/ my LO is different! I guess that is the fun of a spirited. Our currant challange is that it is sooo hard to get Wyatt to sleep in his crib, wind down is like 2 hours, and when we try to cluster feed, he is up the entire time! We rock to wind down then I stop rocking. His eyes are wide open, if you lay him down in the crib he will cry, shh/pat will not work at that time if he is still awake when you lay him down. If I can get his eyes closed b4 the crib, he wakes up when I lay him down, then we can do the shh/pat, but it is an hour! Every time even during the night. Any thoughts???
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Hi macgrl26,
Can jsut say that things will definatly get better and just keep doing what you are doing. Not much help really but it is true.
I am guessing your LO is really young right?
I remember those days of swaddling and sh/patting. I thought they would never end. They did and now we have other problems to replace them...but hey...things DO progress!
Keep going!
Michelle
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Hi Michelle...
Yes, he is just about 6 weeks old! I go back to work in 2 weeks and hopefully he will come around for me! I am not looking foward to 3 times up a night and then dealing with holiday shoppers! ;D (Retail!!)Thank goodness for MAC concealer! That, and I will have my husband taking one of those cries! I am giving him a pass while I am on maternity leave. He gets Friday nights right now and we share Saturday nights.
Trish
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Just marking this spot, Can't wait to read all the posts, but really don't have time now. I'm Anna and will be back to talk to you all about Harry!!!!
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Hi ladies - hope all is well.
Just wanted to pop on to say that we are doing so good with nighttime (JINX - LOL). B will go in her crib wide awake and sing herself to sleep. I now put some music on for her and it really seemed to help ALOT!
For naps, our winddown is down to 10 min now - thank heavens! I was helping too much - what an idiot! She was trying to tell me...hey, put me down...I can do this. We now swaddle, walk around the room, and then in the crib wide awake. Give her the paci and she will fuss (sometimes yell, but hey, she's spirited) and spit it out, so I give it again. I've learned that she really wants to nap on her side (DD1 did this too). I think she is so sick of that darn swaddle, but we've been working on weaning at night only and are not there yet. Anyone have success just taking the swaddle away cold turkey?
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Hi, my name is Kimberly and I am mommy to Travis, a spirited 14 month old. Is this forum for toddlers, or strictly babies. If babies only is there a forum for toddlers? Thanks!
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Hi Im Melanie. I have a spirited little guy Jaxson. Sleeps well during the night. Often only fussing not waking at night. BUT daytimes are horrid. We get maybe three 1 hour naps a day..and he is so cranky! We use to be able to pop in the dummy and he would sleep a bit longer but not this last week or two! Its been draining! Hoping to rid him of his dummy in the next few weeks as he pulls it out and goes to sleep with out it but wont go back to sleep without it. Its a nasty circle!
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Hi all,
We had such a good day yesterday: He went down for 2 naps without ANY crying...really calm and pm nap was 2 hours and at night he went down without me having to do anything. Outr windown is really calm and relaxed and I think it is helping. However the last week or so of nights has been horrible!! He will wake between 3-5 and just whinge until he cries and I go in then is so unsettled it keeps us awake. I offer him the breast as this used to calm him and in the past he would go back to sleep often very easily after a feed till 7 but he refuses it now. He doesn't need a night feed anymore but just keeps waking anyway. Don't know why.
Macgrl26....definatly go cold turkey on the swaddle....by the time we did it he was too strong and wriggling out anyway. Was more harm than good. The progression was natural. You might have a bad night or 2 but it is worth less trouble in the end!
Yep...we have to wean the dummy sometime soon too. Fun Fun
Michelle
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Michelle - thanks. Glad to hear someone did cold turkey with swaddle weaning. I am going to do it this weekend as my mom and DH will be here and I can be up all night if need be to get it done. How old was your lo when you did it? Mine is 19 weeks. She seems to love it, but it seems to annoy her so much now. I think she wants to flip onto her tummy and it just makes her mad when her arms are stuck at her sides. I'm such a wimp...I think I'll do nights as we have been trying one arm out at night. She puts herself back to sleep at night, so I'm not sure what the prob is with the pm nap...someone else told me it just is usually time and that the naps "mature" at diff. points. PM one usually by 6 months - anyone find that true?
I've gotta say having a spirited one is interesting...a lot of fun sometimes, but sometimes trying too. Sometimes I feel like I want to screech right along with her at the top of my lungs too - anyone else?
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Yea everyday and i do screech sometimes just to let it all out!!! >:( Your not being a whimp at all, the thing is with us mum's we dread doing things so bad, that when it comes to it, it never is quite as bad as you thought it would be. I remember having about 2 months of saying that bed time dummy has to go (I was dreading it to say the least) But it all worked out just fine :)Good luck for the weekend, and remember we are all here to support you. Take Care Anna x
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pbmom,
TBH I would say the swaddle has nothing to do with short naps or sleep problems at your LO's age. In fact I am almost sure it is doing more harm than good. Maybe it is just what she needs to move on to the next stage. You might be really surprised on the weekend. My LO was about 14 weeks when we did it. I was scared too but it actually made little difference. By that I mean that things certainly did not get WORSE. He had wake ups sure but not worse than when he had the swaddle he would jusrt wriggle out of it anyway. Your LO at 19 weeks must be finding that so restricting.
Good luck and go for it! I am sure it will be easier than you think. Let us know
Michelle
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Hi ladies. I'm afraid to say I think I may be having to join this thread :-\ Hannah seems to be getting more and more spirited by the hour! We are currently battling with naps and feeding really badly.
The first 4 months of Hannah's life she was definitely textbook/angel. I honestly found it easy having a newborn and a toddler around the house. Boy have things changed in the last 6 months :o
Some days I feel like walking out and giving up :-[ Obviously I never would but I know I'm in good company here saying that as you all understand the frustrations I'm referring to.
One question I have to start me off is what do you do for a wind down? Hannah hates being cuddled and 9/10 if I sit with her on my knee for more than about 5 seconds she just struggles and fights me to get down. Most nap times I start out with good intentions of sitting quietly for a few minutes and just calming down but she puts up such a fight I end up plonking her in the cot and leaving her to it. And at the moment every nap is a battle to get her to go to sleep. She climbs all around her cot and moans but just won't settle to sleep.
TIA
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Hi to all,
It's been some time that I didn't come to this thread and I can see that there is a lot of new people. Pbmom, I went cold turkey about the swaddle and didn't make much difference. Hazel, I do rocking with pacifier and blankie, while singing a song at this time for wind down. She will fight me for a minute but then will relax.
I will come back later.. I have do go somewhere.
Annie
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Hazel--my LO is like my cat--hates to be cuddled unnecessarily. I read to her for every winddown. She loves it. She listens to my voice and looks at the pictures, and now she wants to hold the book and turn the pages. Give her something to DO. Plus, starting positive associations with reading is always a good thing. Honestly, I had pitted battles until we started reading to her at about 2.5-3 months.
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HELP: Quick Question for you all....
I am having to go back to work partime and will, for the first time, need to leave Grace with someone (an in home day care). She has to have a room dark, quiet and with out stimulation in order to take a nap. I thought we had it all planned out that we'd take her after she woke from her nap but found out last night that 2 days a week she'll have to sleep at someone else's with other children running around and possibly in the same room.
Any suggestions? She does not sleep out...crib, stroller, etc. Never has since she was 3 months old, but does well in her room, by herself.
Also, she always wakes at the 30 minute mark, but then, if it's quiet and nothing catches her attention she'll fall back to sleep, but if she hears something or see something we are done for. :-\ I don't mind normally because we are at home and I can monitor things myself, but with her being around other kids I am not sure how this will work.
Any words of advice, encouragement. I am really nervous as she is on only one nap and if that doesn't happen it will make the rest of the day super crazy and her nights will get all jumpled.
Thanks.
Melissa
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Hey all!
I am glad to see that all of us have problems with our little spiriteds going to sleep! OMG, sometimes it is a breeze, and I am like,,, here it is, the part the bw was talking about,,, He's got it, then there today, the hour and a half wind down!!! I just got him down 20 min ago, and he will be ready to eat in a 1/2hr. Whee hoo!!!!
Hello to all the new joiners! I just joined myself about a week ago! I love this website!
Trish
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Just wanted to say hi and introduce myself. My little spirited girl is 5 months old, and I've read through this thread feeling very at home. I honestly didn't know babies like this existed when I decided I wanted one! Turns out DH and his sisters were all spirited, at least in some ways, although we seem to have some extra spirit in addition to what they were. DD won't stand for being cuddled or rocked, and MIL says she's never seen anything like it! Actually, I get a lot of that when we're out and about - "I've never seen a baby so active", "I've never seen a baby so alert", "I've never seen..." you all understand, I'm sure. We have lots of fun, especially on her good mood days, and it's a good thing, because some other days I just want to run away and hide. Our current issues are NW (have recently gotten down to two usually), short naps, and general OT problems due to the other two issues. I'm looking forward to getting to know you all and having others to feel crazy with who understand what it's like. I'm so 'type A', sometimes I feel like someone is playing a very big joke on me!
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Elsmom - glad you joined us over here...spirited lo's are a lot of fun, but a handful too :) Now combined with teething - yikes!!!!!
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Hi everyone, I haven't been on this thread since it started but I just wanted to give you some hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel ;)
Leorah is soon to be 14 months and since we have transitioned to 1 nap she sleeps like an angel baby ;D The whole of the first year was a struggle with my extremely spirited little diva but in the last 2 months things have changed so much. We had all the same problems you are all having since she was a newborn that didn't nap longer than 20 mins ::) She now goes to bed between 6 and 6.30pm every night and sleeps until 8am :o She also take 1˝ hour nap! I honestly still can't believe it but it's been very consistant. The other thing is that she can suddenly take much more stimulation, yesterday DH's nan was here and was chasing Leorah around the room just before her nap, L was squealing and giggling and I thought she's never sleep but she went down and was asleep within 5 mins and slept for 1hr40, this would not have happened even a matter of a few weeks ago. So anyway I thought I'd let you know as I would have really appreciated seeing a mum with a spirited baby coming out of the other side. Everyone comments on how energetic she is (you understand ;)) so I guess she needs her sleep now and is mature enough to realise it. I still live in fear that it is all going to go wrong but she is teething molars right now and still sleeping through so I can't see what could disrupt her routine more than that so I am staying optimistic, we have definitely earned a good night sleep! If there is one piece of advice I could give a mum of a spirited baby it is to develope consistant routine and rituals, our babies are clever and curious and really like to know what's going on and what's going to happen next. Sorry I just want to add it's also a good idea to keep the winddown very simple, when DD was younger songs and stories were much too stimulating and lastly try and put them down to sleep before they have shown any signs as with S babies it's then often too late.
Anyway I know it can be tough but I still stand by my opinion that we are blessed with the best kind of kid so when things are really bad just think about all the wonderful qualities your LO possesses and how much joy and laughter they are going to bring in the future, now she sleeps L is such a joy to be around though I have to watch her all the time or she will be up the bookshelf or hanging out of the window :P. If you have any Qs you can always PM me for some support. Enjoy your lovely babies :-* :-*
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Skatty - that was so lovely - thanks for that!!!!
Hazel - I have found with Brooke (now 20 weeks) that anything in the winddown is too much. If I tried to sit she'd freak! It really just needs to be me walking with her around her room and and patting her back (although that is risky sometimes). She is too easily OS. Maybe if you go up earlier? Do you wait for signs? I go more or less by the clock a lot as she doesn't show tired signs. By the time she yawns, too late!!! It took a while to figure out the perfect A time. She'll make a few fusses when she's ready and then I have to go straight away. I also was helping too much before. Now I put her down facing away from me (very helpful too) with my hand on her shoulder/arm and let her do the rest. Sometimes I have to pick her up a couple times to relax her, but then she goes off on her own. It's like they are even spirited in their attempt to go to sleep!!!
Melissa - I can only imagine your worry. Brooke would have a hard time with that too. Have you introduced a lovey or some familiar items for the crib that she can maybe play with at day care too...maybe she'd play and then go off again if she was roused early or heard something at that 30 min mark. Funny you say that about the 30 min mark - mine is exactly the same. Goes back out by herself unless she hears something, but ALWAYS stirs at exactly 30 min!!!
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Good news...we found an in home day care that has a seperate room for Grace, plus her son is the exact same way as Grace...needs quiet. He has a sound machine in his room and a fan blowing outside his door. So, she doesn't think I am crazy ;D Plus that nap at around the same time! PERFECT. We'll see how it goes. She starts this week.
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hey all....
I am starting to freak out! I go back to work in 1 week (full time), and my lo is waking every 1/2 hour to an hour every night! Naps during the day are horrible, I try so hard to get him down when he yawns, but we get upstairs and we are wide awake, and I will spend the next 3 hours until it is time to eat again, patting and shushing. We will have 2 days that he will do well at night, and now here I am at 2:30 am , he had df at 10:30-11 ish, and we have been up since 1:00, and I have been patting and shushing since then. I am in tears right now! We have been working on this for 3 weeks. I have tried really hard to be consistant. ( and I am really on my husband to be too. but he thinks he needs to be more awake during the day to sleep at night, the lo is 8 weeks old) Can anyone help me????!!!!
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Hi,
Trish, I'm sorry that it's not going well for the sleeping. Did you try the night waking board? I will try to help you as much as I can, anyway support if nothing else. General sleep, night waking and naps board might more able to help you (they have more experience). First, a couple of questions to help you: are you saying that after you dreamfeed or cluster feed, your baby stay awake? If so, I would try to not feed him until he wakes up himself. My lo was waking at night for 1-2 hours (1-2 times per night) and I decided to stop the dreamfeed and feed her when she wakes up (because anyway I had to be up when she wakes up in the middle of the nigth) and it turn up that she would only wakes up one time at nigth to feed and was back to bed as soon as the feed was finish. No more sh/pat for 1-2 hours. It seem that the dreamfeed was disturbing her night sleep. No all baby do well with dreamfeed. My lo was 4 months at that time but I only started EASY at 3.5 months, so it might have been the same thing earlier. Your lo might wake up more time during the night to feed because he is still young. Also, maybe he is hungry when he wake up and that's why he wake up every 1/2 hour to an hour. Are you feeding him at that time? I know you probably don't want him to get use to eat all night but it is worth to try to feed him the first time and see. Maybe he will sleep well after the feed. Maybe it's a growth spurt. Lots of maybe but if I were you, I would try to feed him and see. Can't get much worse! Well that goes for breastfeeding (I BF so I think of what to do when BF) but I guess that if you are bottle feeding, then try to increase the amount during the day, it might help and you can also an extra bottle at night if not working with extra milk during the day.
Did you try swaddling? pacifier? Some babies need to suck all the time, my lo was like that.
One thing: maybe we can help you more if you write down your EASY.
Annie
Keep your good work ;)
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macgrl - just wanted to offer support, and I agree with the suggestion to look on the nightwakings and naps boards. Look at the FAQs as well - I've gotten lots of good suggestions just from reading that stuff. I have been there with NW up to 10 or more times a night, and you're doing the right thing - consistency is huge, I think especially for spirited ones. Hang in there, and try not to feel like a bad mom!! You're not doing anything wrong, you just have one who is a little extra hard to figure out. We still have short nap issues here (5 months), but they're much better than they were 3 months ago, so hang in there. I didn't find BW until 3.5 months, and I have seen huge results. Sorry I don't have more concrete help, but keeping yourself sane is step 1, so get help and sleep where you can, and keep up the hard work!
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Trish - Agree with Annie...my lo wakes that frequently when hungry. Maybe GS or maybe just needing a little something extra at night. Your lo is only 8 weeks old - 2 night feeds are common. I also dropped the DF as it was disturbing her. Maybe it's a spirited thing! Swaddle definitely helped mine although I know some hate it. And paci too...I'm sure I'll have to deal with that down the line :)
Good Luck!!!
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Hey all!!
Thank you guys for your support! It helps having others who have had simaler if not the same issues as me! It is 9:04 on sunday morning... (Happy Birthday to me! 33 years young ;-) ) My husband took all of last night (I loved that, but I still want an ipod!) MUCH thanks for all of your suggestions. I guess I feel that we are on a rollor coaster. About a week ago, I would DF and he would sleep for 5 hours ( I was up about 3, 3 1/2 hours into it poppin in the paci instead of food) And he was all good! We swaddle him, arms out cuz he HATES having his arms in. He grunts like a maniac, and you can watch him work out his arms, of course any drowsiness we had is gone by that point!!! :) I wish he would keep his arms in cuz he is so jerky! He falls asleep with/or with out paci (his mood) if with, and it falls out, 9 times out of 10 he is okay with that. I think that I will finish out this week with the dream feed, then next week (umm, I am sure it will be renamed hell week, 1st week back to the trenches) Then try the suggestion of dropping the df. Okay... so here is another question. My Pediatrician was telling me, if I am in the room, belly sleeping time is okay (good for head, helps flat spot) Wyatt LOVES sleeping on his belly. Good sleep, no jerking and failing around. Does anyone else let their lo sleep on their belly?? I am going to be calling my ped and asking. Any thoughts?? Oh.... last question, holy cow, I am full of them! haha..... Do any of you kind moms who have given me the support, think that also changing formulas could interrupt his sleep?? We have tried 4.... Enfamil Lipil gave us bad gas, Efml soy, made us cry as soon as the bottle was out for about an 1/2hr, Efml fussy/gassy baby gave us acid reflux(so weird, could hear it come up,him swallow, sometimes then cry, generally, then out) So now we are on simalac regular. A little gas.... not as bad as enfamil... little tummies solves that. Any thoughts???
Okay. I think I am done for the moment. Can you all tell that I have had some sleep?? This message alot less desperate!!! Thank you all again... I know I will be chatting soon! ;-)
Trish
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macgrl - my dd is a tummy sleeper, and has been since she was 3 weeks old. I couldn't find another way for her to sleep at all, other than on my chest in the recliner, and that wasn't a great long term solution. I worried about it, especially at first, and my pediatrician definitely advised against it, but she's very very strong, and has always been able to lift her head so well, that I just gave in to what seemed natural for her. Because of this, though, I still am paranoid to have a lovey in the crib with her, because she's probably more likely to get tangled in something face down. She started flipping herself onto her back at 6 weeks, so that lessened my worry, too. It's proven to be not as safe, and only you can decide what's right for you guys. I just knew for myself, I felt like it was healthier for her to be getting sleep than not. Also, as soon as I made the decision, all of a sudden moms everywhere started telling me they did the same thing. My dd was a big sleep-jerker, and it seemed to help.
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I guess that the kind of formulas might do some difference in the sleeping pattern if your lo is not doing well with the formulas. Gas and stuff is not helping with the sleep. My lo sleep on her side but if the only position that she would like would be the belly sleeping, then she would sleep on her tummy (but she always hated it). Tummy sleeping is good to muscles development through all the body because when they wakes up, they want to look around and move. They say it is more a risk with tummy sleeping (but some people do debate this). I know lots of mother that put their babies on their tummy to sleep but that is your decision.
Annie
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My lo sleeps on her side for naps (we have a video monitor) and lately I have been watching her flip onto her belly. She sleeps great, but then when she wakes she yells a bit as she wants to be back on her side. LOL!
Any babes hate the car still? We just can't seem to get over it most days...makes it hard to visit family, etc (they are 3+hrs away). Sometimes she's fine and other times she literally cries the entire time. Maybe motion sickness (she does hate the swing when it's moving, and rocking, and being cradled). Hmmm....what does she like? My first would always pass out in the car or sit there happy as a lark (but she was always like that...she was content staring at her crib slats for hours :))
Just wondering.
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Robyn, My LO hated the car until she was about 6 weeks old, and now she seems ok with it as long as she's not OT. My MIL bought her a Baby Einstein car thing that seems to help some. It's got a remote for us to power from the front seat, and it has sounds, lights, and words. It's especially helpful for shorter car rides, but maybe would calm Brooke enough to settle her for a longer trip, too?
Just curious - how many of your LO's hate being rocked? Relatives keep trying to rock Elsie to sleep, not believing me when I say it won't work. She just stiffens her body and gets mad. Even my VERY spirited nephew settled if someone was rocking him - I've never met a baby who couldn't rock to sleep as a back up plan. Sounds like Brooke is this way, Robyn - anyone else?
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LOL - rock Brooke????? what's that? Only when she was tiny enough not to know any better. Now she arches and freaks if we try to us AP as a backup. Probably good in the long run for us as no AP really works, but right now it seems hard.
We got some car thingy and she does not seem to like it (but the music is way to OS)...however, we had a different one for Paige and she loved that (they are similarly spirited)...so maybe we'll try another kind. Lisa - What one do you have - is it a mirror too...with music and lights?
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Hi,
My lo hated to be rock until she was about 6 months. Now I rock her as a wind down but no point trying if she is not tired. I'm trying of buying something for the car with lights too. I have a mirror but this mostly for me to see her but she enjoyed looking at herself in the mirror. The problem is that she freak in the evening when it is dark (being dark at 4:45pm now) in the car and she can't see.
Annie
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I have now resorted to sitting in the back seat of the SUV with my 2 yr old and 5 month old...what has my life come to? DH looks like he's a cab driver! Brooke hates the dark too or if she's not tired and the canopy is too closed and she can't see. They are really nosy aren't they?
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Sounds like the same car thingy, Robyn. I've just had success with it keeping her awake when we're driving home from store, but I have found it ok if I just use the lights or the music or the words, and not a combination. Annie - Elsie's the same way about when it's super dark in the car. Here's a link to the thing:
http:// www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2306396
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Thanks so much for the link for the links, ElsMom. I will buy one as soon as I can get to one. Hope they have it at Walmart because I won't be close to Toys r us for another 2 weeks. There is no Toys r us in my little town but there is one where my parents-in-law lives.
Well I still have problem for my lo to gain weight and the doctor is worried because she is not gaining weight. She does weight only 12 lbs 10 oz at almost 8 months. A month ago, she had gain 1 oz in 2 months. The doctor has order lot of test to be done to check her and I've seen the lactation consultant and dietician who told me to increase the number of BF in a day to increase calories even though she didn't seem hungry before 4 hours in between BF. Now I'm doing every 2 hours during the day (lucky that didn't screw her up too much for the night or naps during the days). The first 2 weeks, she gained 15 oz but this week only 2 oz. I can't feed her much more than this. I don't mind that they do blood test but I don't want any invasive test on her since she seem fine otherwise (she's happy, awake, good gross motor development, language seem to be O.K. - not like they say much at this age). I think I may go to see another doctor for second opinion. I know the other one is a alarmist. Does anybody has this kind of problem?
Annie
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Annie - sorry for your troubles. Heart goes out to you, but glad to hear she's happy and doing well developmentally other than size. I would probably see another doc just to confirm.
Lisa - your car thingy is not the one I have...thank God...I was goind to say if it was I don't know how any spirited lo could not get OS by the one I have. Seemed good in the store, but way to spaztic (is that a word?). I am going to get yours...looks way better!!!! THANKS!
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Hey all!
Thank you all for the tummy advise (or own experiences!) I am going to give it a try cuz he does have good head/neck strength, and he sleeps so well on his tummy when I do it when I am in the room. Going to try it right now b/c I have shh/pat 4 time in the past 1/2 hour for nap! ;-)
I can not really give advise about the car, b/c we (my mother and I) just went to chicago, 3-4 hour drive (yeah... traffic) from ft wayne, and Wyatt was a trooper. Stayed awake the first 45min of the drive, conked the rest of the way. On the way home, we were a bit fussy, but who can blame the poor guy, shopping at woodfield mall for a couple hours, then car ride home. Hope everyone elses suggestions work for you!
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Ps.
Almost forgot to tell you all. I could not get the pack n' play broken down, said fugetaboutit.... Wyatt slept w/me in bed, bad habit I know! Why was it that he sleep 6 hours straight. Why can he not do that in the crib???? Again, hope tummy time helps!!! :-)
Trish
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Oh Annie...sorry to hear about the troubles with Emily. We have our check up on Monday and I am interested to see what he weighs. He is a pretty small thing in my opinion. Please oh please get a second opinion.....it doesn't hurt.
Let us know how it turns out and what the results are.
HUGS
Michelle
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I will see another doctor next wednesday. I also resorted to put a bit of olive oil in her food to see if it would help her to gain some weight and to give her cookies twice a day, not sure if this is good or not. She already eat all her vegetables, fruits, meats and milk product (yogurt and BF), the only thing to do to increase calories is to add sugar and fat. I'll see how it goes. Thank to all for your concern and I'll give news later about that.
Trish, seem like your lo need you close to him to sleep but maybe tummy sleeping will help. Good luck.
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Hi,
I have a very spirited LO!! Any tips for a wind down routine? It seems like everything I try like reading a book, watching tv or anything makes him more agitated rather than calm him.
Holding him and pacing does wind him down, but I'm trying to sleep train so don't really want him to associate holding and sleeping.
Any tips would be greatly appreciated!!
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Adriana, you can continue to hold him if it calm him as long as he doesn't sleep while you are holding him. A wind down is to relax him to be ready to sleep. If you are O.K. with holding and pacing to relax him before bed then it's O.K. For me, I have to rock her while holding her firmly to make her relax and then when she is almost to sleep, I put her to bed. She usually looks at me and then turn 1-2 times on each side while rubbing her blankie. Those spirited lo need to calm down before bed. Did you notice anything else that relax him?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Thanks for the reply. I don't think anything relaxes him, :o Boy, is he spirited!!!! But holding him and pacing is the top of the list for relaxation. I guess I'll keep holding him for a couple of minutes and then put him in his crib. I tried it today and it did work.
I'll forget about the books or tv, it just made him more anxious.
maman_d_emily: Might I suggest avocado? It has lots of good fats, is very nutritious and also natural. I wouldn't feed a spirited baby that much sugar. Well, my LO after a couple of cookies it's as if I had given him turbo.
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For winddown I found with my now 2 yr old that I couldn't do anything...LOL. All my family and friends were saying oh, read her a book and give her a bath before bed and do this and that. YEAH RIGHT! It was like any little thing stimulated her, so I would hold her while in her room and then lay her down when she was relaxed. She did have a paci and fed to sleep when little so I ended up with WI/WO at 8 months, but from 8 months on holding her until relaxed always worked. Good Luck!!! They are a breed all their own.
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I agree, haha!!! Before bedtime I do give him a bath because he's DIRTY, haha... But it's not at all relaxing, he just comes in and out of the bathub around a 100 times, stands up, sits down, etc.....
I tried holding him today and it worked great. I'll keep doing it while working with the PU/PD and hope we're getting a complete night's sleep soon!!!
Thanks for the tips.
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Do any of you moms have issues w/ bath time?? We are 8 weeks now, and did it here and there the first few weeks, trying better routine now, especially since today was first day back to work (wowzers!) Trying to get good routine since I am retail, and well that is not routine at all. Last night, bath like a champ.... today..... holy cow! Hubby suggested maybe too much, could be??? We did go to the babysitters.. He did very well....except I think he was mad at me. Have any of you had that your first day back to work?! (I am only half kidding) He wouldnt look at me, gave hubby smiles, he was grumpy with me :-( Sad.
Hope all is well with everyone!
Trish
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I don't know what exactly what you mean by issues with bath time but my lo was crying with bath time until she was 2 months, then she did like it but was waking her up instead of relaxing, now she cry when we take her out of the tub because she like it so much. :P Well I did leave my lo for some hours at around 8 weeks, she didn't seem to trouble her much (I don't think she even notice I was gone). I don't think that your lo was mad at you but he was probably tired of his day and wasn't feeling for smiling.
Adriana, don't worry about Emily eating too much cookie, she look at the cookie, bang it on the table but don't eat much. When she is full, she doesn't eat, not even cookies and I always give it to her at the end of the meal. I will try avocado next. Somebody told me that before but can't mash it real good and she use to throw up if not smooth. Now it might work.
Tomorrow is the visit with the new doctor for a second opinion.
Annie
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good luck Annie!
Michelle
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macgrl - don't know what kind of bath you're doing, but Elsie didn't like her baths until we stopped sponge baths and put her in the tub - now it's her most favorite thing ever! I avoided sponge baths because she cried and hated it - don't know if she was cold or what. But as soon as we started using the tub where she was partly under water, she went splashing crazy. I can't remember how old she was when we moved her to the tub - probably around 6 or 8 weeks. She's almost 6 months now, and it's still her most exciting part of the day.
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Hi guys,
I am trying to muster up the courage to start an EASY with my 7 month old incredibly spirited DD. Does anyone have any advice for me? I am terrified of starting as I fear it is going to be one helluva slog. We have major sleep issues, especially daytime which then leads to feeding issues ( she still won't take a spoonfeed) and frustratingly the only person who will listen to me when I'm trying to tell people what she is like is my mum. My DH doesn't see that him arriving home in the middle of the bedtime routine, picking her up, blowing raspberries on her tummy, throwing her into the air etc. and then telling me to give her two more minutes with him as he hasn't seen her all day really isn't helping. When it takes then another hour to get her wound back down again he is saying to me isn't it time she was in bed!!"!!!!! Grrrrrr As I said any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Kirsty
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Hey all!! It has been a heck of a week and a half. Been back to work now almost two weeks and talk about milestones! We are sleeping from about 9 to 6am, and last night no waking up for the paci!! Whoo-hoo!! That is making going back to work so much easier!! Lets hope I just did not jinx myself...LOL! Still, not so fond of the bath. Wyatt just cries and cries. It is in a little tub inside a big tub. I have even just tried the tub alone. I think he hates the feeling of being set into the tub... the free fall feel??? He kinda calms down if I keep him in a sitting position, but only so so. We are only doing it now every few days do to the trama ;-) Any advise or thoughts would be great.
Kirsty.....
Here are my thoughts for you.... keep truckin with the schedule. Mine needed it. It didnt go as breezy as the BW said (a few days if you keep on it) but slow and sure we got there. From the time I read the book, an then got hubby to do the same, it took about 6 weeks. He improved little by little each day! As for your hubby. I feel for you and him. I work retail, and I went back to work a week and a half ago. I understand the whole not getting to see the baby. I worked 12-9 Friday (so home by 9:30ish) lo was in bed, and had to be back at work by 7am the next day. I didnt get to see him for 24 hours. Let your hubby know that that sucks, but to keep the schedule it has to be done. I get up early to have the time with him on the days that I am going to be late so I have that time. Let him know that when you get the lo on a schedule, then you can figure out when he can plan time with your lo. What time does your hubby get home that he interupts winddown/bed time??
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Have you tried putting a wet towel in his belly? Sometimes it helps with the free fall feeling.
Kristy,
What are your sleep problems? What do you mean by her not taking a spoonfeed, how do you feed her?
Adriana.
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What are/were your Awake times for your LO's at 6-7 months old? My DD still only sleeps well after about 1 1/2 hrs. (and less before her first nap). Needless to say, while we feed every 3.5-4 hours, we can't keep to any EASY schedule. I've tried pushing her longer, but that only ends in OT-ness. Not worth it. Just wanted some confirmation, if anyone else was in my boat.
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Sorry Hannahbanana - Elsie will be 6 months next week, and she's doing about 2 hrs and 25 minutes. She starts "asking" for a nap between 1 hr 45 minutes and 2 hrs, but I carry her around for the last bit to extend A time. If I try to put her down when she first gets fussy, she cries going down and then takes a short nap. But if your DD is VERY spirited, maybe she's just burning lots and lots of calories and needs more sleep. ?? If she's taking good naps, stick with what you're doing. Don't worry about the EASY (IMO). I've had to do EASAE during several phases, and it works fine. Just wondering - is there a reason you're doing 3.5 to 4 hour EASY instead of just 4 hours? I'm curious because I got "strict" about going 4 hours a week or so ago, and it seemed to solve a few of our problems. Good luck!
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Hi Sophia - sorry you're having trouble. Weird that I have had a few days where her best naps were after 1.5hr A time. Most days it's 2.25hrs. I don't know...trying to figure it out. My DD1 was also spirited and always was A LOT less in A time than others her age. She was around 1.5hrs at this point and EASY always looked like EASAEAS. It worked for us so I didn't worry. At 18 months she was only doing 3 hrs A time and still taking 2 naps. If it works I would stick with it!
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Thanks, Robyn. I'm trying to tune into her more, follow her cues, ask myself what I'd do if I were just observant and hadn't read any books, etc. For example, that's why we don't follow a "strict" feeding schedule. First, I don't eat like that, so I don't expect her to. But, mostly, I may feed her earlier than 4 hrs. if she's due for a nap. (I refuse to wake her up after a mere 30 mins. from a hard-won nap for a feed, regardless of BW advise.) But she seems to be getting the calories she needs, as we've started STTN again :)
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Sophia - yay STTN! That's wonderful and I bet you feel more rested and able to tackle those short nappers.
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Hi to all,
It's been a long time since I didn't come here. I've seen all the post almost every day but didn't have time to give any input. Anyway, I saw another doctor for my dd and even though, she is very small in weight, that her length and head are good size and she (the doctor) didn't think that anything was wrong with her. She said to go and have all the blood test done to make sure. Anyway, they did test her for cystic fibrosis and it was negative. I'm waiting for the rest of the result but nothing else is life threathning (I think).
Let me tell you that she was really good for all the test, not even eating until 10:40am for one of the test as she had to be fasting (the last time she had hate was 10:45pm). The hospital crew did let us wait for hours to get the stuff and Emily wasn't even crying - she was only allowed water. She even slept at one time, poor little thing. After that, I said that they wouldn't do anymore test. She look, act and move normally, so stop bugging her!
Anyway, now she is having night waking since early november and they are not improving so I went to night waking board. See what they can do to help me.
Annie
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Annie, -good that it is nothing serious. I will pop over to night wakings.Could be teething maybe? Ben has 2 now and when they were coming through it was horrible. He was waking very often at night.
RE A times: Ben has 2 -2.15 between waking and first nap then could be 3 hours till 1pm nap or 2 depending on length of first nap. Thzen 3 1/2 between afternoon nap and bedtime with a 30 min cat nap. I find this is ok for him and he has been pretty much sleeping through lately. (more or less)
Hiope this helps
Michelle
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Thank Michelle for your support about the night waking. Glad to hear that everything seem good on your part. We are not rocking Emily to sleep, which is not a problem for the nap but evening is like going in her room every 5 min or so to put her back on her side (she is on her belly and gets mad that we are not there to get her) for an hour. :'( This always been a problem, she doesn't want to fall asleep at night. I said I would try for some days to feed her every 4 hours to see if it would make a difference in the night waking but now that I'm thinking about it, it is been at least 5 days like that since she won't take it before that with no improvement. So tonight I will dreamfeed her (not done that since she was 4 months), I think she might not eat enough during the day since she want to explore and maybe teething so I will give her extra milk as a dreamfeed (no other feed) and hope for the best - I did that for when she had to have her blood test that she had to be fasting and she slept all night. Dreamfeed didn't work so well before (that's why I stop around 4 months). Well anyway I need a good night sleep so maybe the dreamfeed will help even if it is for a day. I'll give news later.
Annie
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Happy New year to all. Hope you had a good Christmas. I finally resolve the problem of Emily waking up often at night. It was hunger. I did stop feeding her every 2 hours (against the lactation consultant who wants me to BF my dd 6-8 times per day - she never read BW!) Now I am BF every 4 hours and give solid almost immediatly after BF and a dreamfeed in between 10-11pm just before I go to bed and she now sleep through the night. She had a few days that she woke 1-2 times before midnight but this is due to teething, some more days like that to come since teeth are not there yet. I know that she is old (9 months now) for dreamfeed but it's working now and the lactation consultant was happy that she is eating at least 5 times in a 24 hour period. We will see if she is still gaining weight next week.
She is now standing often to her 2 toys she received for Christmas and loves (a table that do all kind of sound and a little kitchen with all kind of sound too). It make it sometimes hard for me since she want to be up all the time to those toys but since she did fall a couple of times (not too solid on her legs yet), she want me to be behind her to make sure she doesn't fall. :P
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YAY Emily!!! Great job!
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What kind of wakings did you have when you LO's were teething? Last night, we were up at 9, 11, 1, 3, and 5 (for good). And didn't I just announce that she was STTN? Jinx.
Not sure if the problem is teething or a sudden dip in my milk supply because of a cold. But this morning, she only really started fussing for food at just about 4 hours. So, I'm going to try to feed every 4, unless she's inconsolable.
I'm really really desperate. She been waking 2+ times at night for a week, and our naps are terrible!!! Sigh.
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hannahbanana,
I don't exactly if my dd was waking up 3-5 times at night for only teething or if it was also due to hunger because I had change her BF schedule but one thing for sure is that teething make her wake up 1-2 times before midnight. I don't know what to say except give you lots of hugs. I did BF for a long time at night (once at night) around 4-5 months and then she was able to do all night for 2 months then back to her waking up often at night (hunger and some teething), now is on and off lately. This is just to say that babies are roller coaster and breastfed babies are unknown roller coaster (as you never know if they had their good amount of milk). Hang in there.
I think my BF days are over, Emily refuse totally the breast but then again today she also refuse the bottle and 2 days ago she also did refuse solid. I think she is going on hunger strike! Big roller coaster lately.
Annie
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HannahBanana - have you tried tylenol? I read somewhere that we shouldn't be so concerned about giving Tylenol too often, since they can't tell us when they're uncomfortable. It's not ok to give every night, obviously, but if she's having trouble sleeping, maybe give it a try and see what happens. I sometimes give Elsie half a dose with her dream feed if she's been sleeping restlessly up until then, and it seems to help her make it through the rest of the night. Actually, the last week, she's sttn on nights I've done that, and not on the nights I haven't. Wondering what that means here, too! She just got another tooth, though, so I hope that was it and we'll be back to normal soon.
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Lisa--My husband and I were talking about giving her Tylenol (we haven't used it at all, up to this point). But it might be the thing to help us get through this teething. I will look into it. Thanks.
Annie--Thanks for the perspective--and the confirmation. Yes, babies are a roller coaster. And, breastfeeding does make it that much more unpredictable, like riding a roller coaster in the dark and dropping off a steep deep you never saw coming.
Today's feeds were much better than the past few days, so we'll see how that affects the night. I have Hyland's homeopathic teething gel on hand and will try that if/when she wakes. We may also go and get some Tylenol. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Hannahbanana,
I agree with Lisa about giving tylenol or you can even try Motrin (this last up to 8 hours but you have to give it with some food or milk). I've done so for teething, for the night at least since it seems to bother her more at night. Sometimes it help, sometimes it make no difference. I think they are hungry too at night since they are taking less a feed during the day when breasfeeding, so even with tylenol/motrin they still wake up. Supplementing with EBM or formula during the day might give you less waking at night (wish I did that the first time she was teething, I'm doing it now - teething now- and it help a bit, but like I said before, she is totally refusing the breast now so she need to eat).
Annie
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Hi - I have posted this elsewhere, but now recognise that I probably have a spirited baby - just like his dad! Have tried sitting in a rocking chair but i think he gets frustrated because he is so visual. Have you tried soothing visuals like projected stars or have these made it worse? Do you think they are better winding down in the dark? Any other suggestions advice much appreciated. In everthing else apart from sleep he is a treasure. So inquisitive and funny!
xxx
I know I have posted recently, but I would really appreciate as much feedback as possible from people who have used pat/shh with a three month old. I have been following the three hour schedule with my boy since 10 weeks. I now feel that I know his sleep patterns, if I start a wind down 15 mins to half an hour before he needs to sleep after 1.5 hours awake. I can pretty successfully get him off to sleep on my shoulder - have had days with no crying at all.
The problem is that he is already 15 pounds, my shoulder is aching and I'm worried about doing serious damage to my back. Have tried sitting in a rocking chair and it is better but only just. I know I can't maintain this for long. Because of this I have been trying for the last day and a half to put our boy in his cot just before he is about to drop off as the BW suggests. In the day time it hasn't been too bad, he has cried for 0 - 40 minutes at most. Today, he cried for about 15 minutes in the day before going to sleep.
But last night, just before he went to bed for the night he cried for an hour and 20 minutes and tonight he cried for two hours even though I am sat right beside him, patting and rubbing his tummy and shhhing non-stop! I know he was fed, changed and about to fall asleep just before I put him down. Have been trying to follow the three hour routine, but 8am start and 7.30pm to 8pm going to bed.
I know one option is to pick him up when he starts crying, but I'm worried that he will be even more confused if I pick him up and then put him down. I feel that might make him cry for even longer. I also need something that is going to work sooner rather than later because I am physically struggling to keep picking him up. My husband can't really help with the pacing around because he has a bad ankle.
Would really appreciate anyone's experiences? How long did pat/shh take to work when you put them in the cot a/ if you don't pick them up b/ if you do?
If this is going to take weeks I'm not sure I will be able to keep it up, but know that consistency is really important,
Thank you!
Sarah M2
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Hi Sarah M2,
First, you should not do pick up/put down before 4 months. For me, it did take us 2 months to have her sleep on her own during the day and no crying in the evening but had to go in the room every 5-10 min to give pacifier again until she fell asleep an hour later. We started at 3 months to try to have sleep on her own. At that time, she was crying a lot, it did help a lot when she took the pacifier again at 5 months, so I suggest you try that. Just to say that everything was screwed up by having somebody to take care of her once in a while that would rock her to sleep, so now I have to rock her during the day but not for the evening. So my experience, it does take a lot of time but you have to make sure that everyone will do the same as you or it probably won't work. At 3 months, it took us up to an hour during the day for naps and 2 hours for the evening.
I don't think that soothing visuals will help since that might be too stimulated but you never know. They say that for spirited one, it is better in the dark but I have seen no difference for mine (at that age).
Naps and night sleep is not the same so if you don't have too much a problem for him to put him to sleep in his cot during the day then continue to work on that and maybe you can do whatever is working in the evening to have him go to sleep if you find it too hard to work on everything at once. I did try to work on everything at once and my arm and my back were sore for so much sh/pat, not to say that I was going crazy so I would work on one thing at a time if I would have to do it again. Also, as they get older, they cry less (they play in the cot instead - not sleeping but at least you are less freaking out since the crying finally stop).
Sorry but my experience was long but it does get better. One thing that did help was swaddling and holding arms and legs (I still do hold her arms and legs sometimes when I rock her). One thing I can think is maybe to take step to have him sleep on his cot alone, like example rocking him with him lying on his side and sh/pat instead of on your shoulder and when he is good like that, you can move to put him on his cot on his side and sh/pat and then decrease sh/pat. I will try that with mine for her naps during the day when I find the courage to do it.
Good luck and let us know. Lots of hugs.
Annie - my lo is now 13 lbs 9 oz
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Thank you so much Annie, it is really helpful to have the benefit of someone else's experience. I think I will definitely work on the naps first as they are so much better and also make sure no one rocks him to sleep,
Thanks for all your advice,
Sarah x
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Sarah - hugs - it's so hard. I just wanted to say that you are good to be working on this now. With my first I didn't work on it until she was 8-9 months old. Wow was the AP set in then...rocking/holding to sleep, feeding to sleep, car rides - you name it! I agree with pp...no pu/pd as he's too young. I would keep on as he's so young and you are right to do shh/pat in the crib. Start with him over the shoulder for winddown and then place him in awake and then see where it goes. Sounds like you've been trying that and he's been crying. Remember that crying is just his way of saying "hey, mom, this is not how we go to sleep!" It will take a little bit, but the crying will ease up (of course you'll feel like you have a lack of oxygen to the brain from shhhing so much (at least I did!)). If you keep at it then soon enough you will be placing him in the crib awake and giving him some reassurance and walking away.
ps - shh/pat didn't work for my 2nd lo at this age - too spirited and it really annoyed her. Instead I swaddled and rolled her on her side and put my hand on her shoulder. I did use a paci then and it really helped (before she got addicted to it). I know others here also have said they had to modify shh/pat to work for them so their lo wouldn't scream.
Good Luck!
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Dear Sarah,
welcome to the club!
It is hard work but things do get better. I would keep the stimulation to an absolute minimum. No lights or music or anything visual close to his cot. It will just wind him up more.
Sh/pat might not work but just remember.....there will be an end to this stage and you can use PU/PD evfentually. sh/pat helped a bit but the real turnaround for us was whan he hit around 4 months and suddenly it was just time to stop doing it and we moved to PU/PD. Even that only lasted a few weeks and from then on, I was putting him down awake and just going in and soothing without picking him up till he fell asleep. I know it is hard to listen to crying but rocking him to sleep will only make things harder. You might get a few weeks of crying to get him to sleep in his bed but trust me: it is worth it....particularly if it is draining you physically.
It is a looonnnggg haul unfortunatly but you just have to see it through.
Just keep doing sh/pat and you will see with growth comes the next phase and it is definatly different to what you are going through now. We have all been there but all I can say is stick at it....it will get better!
Michelle
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Hi all,
This board has been a godsend for me today. I have been feeling like the world's worst mum since my 9 week old extremely spirited baby was born. We read BW while I was pg and thought it wonderful. Unfortunately we never once considered that we would have a spirited baby (but apparently both myself and DH were spirited). I don't know how many tears I have cried during that time.
Alex has been a really difficult baby since day one. He has never slept very well during the day but seems to have always known day from night. He quickly got OT and OS and had what we called 'crocodile' moments (we had to wrestle him like a croc). He still is a little behind in his feeding but has gained weight well. He is always extremely alert and delights family members with his smiles, coos and face pulling. No one can believe that a baby wants to be a part of the adult world as much as he does. Alex refuses to nap at all some days and I vow not to lose the battle of shush pat but this takes up so much of our day. By the time DH comes in from work I am an emotional wreck. Today has been horrible- he won't sleep for more than 20 minutes at a time either in his cot, pram or being held. We have been really consistent in our approach to the 4 s's and even spend up to 45 mins with him in order to get him into the next cycle of sleep. Sometimes we cannot get him past the 20 min jolt and then he opens his eyes and grins at us! Help! What are we doing wrong? I feel such a failure especially since we were starting to see a huge difference and he was much easier to put down. He is always swaddled tightly and uses a dummy when needed. We have tried experimenting with longer A times, shorter A times, longer wind down, shorter wind down and nothing seems to be helping (especially today).
He has reflux so now on different formula, which has helped but he is still so unsettled. We have even had a few sessions with a cranial osteopath. I feel so awful for him as he is so exhausted but fights slepp at every opportunity. It seems that we take 2 steps forward and then about 10 back.
Any suggestions at all would be gratefully received. 3 hour EASY is such a struggle for us with such short nap times (and definitely no Y for me).
Thank you in advance
Jo X
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Hi Jo,
Reade my last post! Just keep doing what you are doing. You are doing a great job! I don't want to freak you out but when he is 6 months old, or before if you are lucky, you will look back and realise how much things have improved. Those early days seemed to last forever for me but now Ben is 7 months old and I look back and realise all that sh/patting and routineing has paid off. YOu probably have a bit of a fight to go but believe me....it will one day be better. There is really no other advice as your LO is still so young. I remember wondering why it wasn't all working like the book says, but when I just stuck to my 'ideal' and accepted things were beyond my control for a while, around 5 months suddenly things started falling into place. Naps WILL extend if you keep doing what you are doing.
It will I promise!!!
Michelle
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hello all! may i introduce myself and my lo?
my lovely daughter, lara, is now 6 months old. after reading bits of the BW book that we bought on sunday, and some of the posts on this thread, im definitely recognizing it as my home :). she is the 30min nap during the day/wake up loads during the night, full of energy, curious, social type. can i sign up?
since sunday night we are trying with the BW routine, and i got 5 hours of solid sleep last night, hooray!!!!! but every night we have a 2 hour session of crying between 7h30/10h00.
regardless of the stress of the crying session, the new routine is excellent for us, before lara was running the show and we had lots of ups and downs. now we know how the day will go and she seems to be adapting well to it, making all of us a much happier bunch :D.
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hi and welcome jabuti,
I'm happy that BW is helping you. You will see that things will continue to improve as you continue with the routine. :)
Annie
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hi annie, thank you!
her naps are still lasting only 40 min or so, we spend another 30 minutes trying to get her back to sleep. she is calm during nap times. but bedtime is the hardest for us: goes down easily at 6h30, wakes up one hour later, then we have 2 hours crying session until she can settle herself back to sleep. its very stressful for all of us, embracing myself for tonight!!!
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It is hard but it will get better. Keep at it. Lots of hugs! Did you try wake to sleep for naps and also in the evening, this sometimes help. Also, maybe she is OT - what her awake time?
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we are almost 100% that she is overtired. from what i read, 30/40 min naps are no good for babies.
our routine is, since sunday: wake up at 6 am and bed at 6h30 pm (in between is just what BW suggested). the problem is her naps that only last 30/40 min and at bedtime, she sleeps from 6h30 to 7h30, cries from 7h30 to 9/9h30, then back to sleep. dreamfeed at 11 and around 4 am. since we started this routine she is waking up less and less... but the hardest part is the 7h30 to 9 bit, with the crying. after that, if she wakes up again is just a matter of popping the dummy back in and thats it.
what is 'wake to sleep'?
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wake to sleep is a way to extend naps - the information is on FAQ in naps. If it is only 30 min, then she is overtired (OT). So try to put her to have less awake time before the naps and see if that help. It might take some time to have the good timing. Sometimes they are tired even if they don't have any signs. Something that did help me was to write down everything - when she was napping, how long, was it difficult to fall asleep. With that you might see that she sleep longer with x amount of awake time.
Her crying at 7:30 is probably because she is OT and with longer naps, this might go away. Unless you think that she might have some kind of discomfort (teething, solid that she is having problem with).
Annie
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How do I know if my baby is spirited, touchy, etc? I can't seem to find where I find this out! TIA
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im going to read it right now annie, thank you! i have ruled out solids, teething. hopefully i can extend her naps. and i've been writing down everything too. ;)
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JulieNG, it is written in the book but you can also find it in FAQ in EASY (The BW "know your baby quiz").
jabuti, hope the wake to sleep will help.
Annie
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jabuti, I just wanted to let you know that I know what you feel about crying 2 hours in the evening. My lo use to cry 2-4 hours from 3 weeks old to about 4 months in the evening because of colic and then it was crying during the day as I was trying to have her sleep. Let me tell you that you want to pull all your hair and you get mad by time, crying other time and just plain tired. But hang in there, it will come better. You will see that your lo will become joyful (even when tired).
For the first time in months, Emily was able to fall asleep by herself for her naps this morning (took 1 hour playing in her crib) and she woke up after 30 min but fell back to sleep. :) Hope this continue.
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it must have been hard for you! lara was never much of a crier, i think the shock was greater when she then started crying because of teething at 3 months, then OT in the last months...
im here to say that wake to sleep WORKED! IT WORKED! i stayed in the room with her from 6h50 (when she fell asleep) to 9 and was able to assist her when she was jolting around the end of each 45 min cycle. this morning i camped again in her room for her fist nap of the day, and for the first time ever she slept the recommended 2 hours!!!! we are so pleased!!!! i hope we and she can get the hang of it and not have to camp for too long, but i much prefer it than an OT baby!!! she seems much happier and more peaceful since we started EASY. now with all this sleep, it will be even better!
thank you for the support annie!!!
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it was hard back then but now she is just lovely. She is joyful and full of energy now.
I'm really glad that wake to sleep worked. I think it might take some time for her to be able to do it alone but she will get it. Some babies get it before then others and also, more your gonna help her and she'll be less tired and more easy for her. My dd has good naps most of the time and never had a real problem with naps but she sometimes get 30 min if I miss the good time to put her down for naps. Can't be perfect all the time :P So don't worry after all the work that you will do that she might just get 30 min once in a while.
Annie
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I am in the same boat, my LO is very spirited and a bit touchy too. She wants to go, go go. Trying so hard to crawl and always wants to be on her tummy. Even though she will fuss when she gets there...she always flips to her tummy. Anyway started the BW method on Friday. I AM Exhausted and have wanted to quit so many times. She was taking 20 min naps and waking every 3 hours at night. I had to do something. We have seen some improvement but not a lot. It is day four..and I am hopeful. Here is her "attempted schedule"
7am UP and Feed - she sometimes gets up at 6 where I try I put her back down - almost impossible.
7:30-8:45 Activity
8:45 quite time
9a Nap (has been taking one hour with some pats from me - cries for about 20 min)
11a FEED
11:30-12:45 Activity
12:45 Quite time
1pm NAP (this one is tough, she will wake every 20 min..and fights so much to go back down)
3pm FEED
3:30-5 Activity
5 pm cat nap (1/2 hour)
5:30-6:45 Activity
6:45 Bath (she doesn't calm as much as others with this so I feed her after bath)
7pm BED
10pm Dream Feed
2am she wakes but puts herself back to sleep
3am wakes, fusses, then wails crying, I go in once that starts. She can't be comforted...buries her head in the sheet, tosses head back and forth, kicks legs. I finally get her to calm down with both PU/PD and shusshing. Saying it will be ok. She may fall asleep for 5 min then jerks awake even though I am holding her limbs. She is very very strong. This goes on till about 4-4:30a. Then she goes down, Back up at 5a and 6a....we are both so tired. I know she is overtired. Anything I can change/any advice. I am doing this all week....hoping that it all comes together for her.
;)
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Hi Neeenah and lots of Hugs. This is a difficult time and thing will get better soon if you stick to a routine. How old is your lo? Depending on the age, maybe A time is too long.
Annie
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Neeenah, I just read your post on EASY forum. I know you don't want to feed your lo in the middle of the night but my lo was waking at night at that age (and she had not done that for 2 months at least) and try to put her to bed and it took a long time every night and would wake up not long after. So I decided to feed her after a few weeks of me going crazy and she was back to sleep in no time after the feed. All along, she was hungry. BF is different and sometimes they need extra at night. In the waking at night thread, they told me they could be hungry after 5 hours of not eating at that age so maybe you could try feeding her at 3am (this been about 5 hours of not eating). I think that she is hungry since it take her a long time to fall asleep and then she wake up at 5am and 6am. Frequent waking indicate that she is hungry. But if you feed her at 3am, don't feed her after that until the morning. Even if your A time is good during the day, she might be OT from the lack of sleep at night.
Annie
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i agree with annie, and thats exactly what my baby needs around 3h30/4. a 10 minutes feed and she is back to sleep.
neeenah, when you say 'activity' up to 6h45, does she have a good winding down session before bedtime? also, what has been working for me, is controlling very well her activity time by not estimulating her too much, what can happen very easily since she will embrace anything new.
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Hi,
My name is Sherry and I have a little spirited baby. His name is Lyle. Some day I'll figure out how to put the picture on. We have worked very hard on the easy schedule for a month now and things have gotten much better. He turned 12 weeks old today and we had the best nap day ever. It still takes 20 minutes of ptt/sh but much less crying. If I leave him on his own he will play for 20-30 minutes, then cry, and it will take 20-60 minutes to get him down, if at all. So I've decided to just do the pat/shh and it's working much better. My question is, has anybody found a good way to make a spirited baby more sleepy before you put them in the bassinet so that it doesn't take so long for them to go to sleep. I have found that everything is over stimulating for him: Books, singing, rocking, even cuddling. I try to have him cuddle and he decides he wants to do push-ups of my chest, all this while he's in his swaddle. We went back to swaddling and it has been a godsent. We currently have a miracle blanket and I'm wondering what I should use after the 13th week?
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Oh, another question. We have lots of difficulty with the catnap at around 5. In the nap forum they talk about stealing the catnap, but I can't do that. The swing is too stimulating, he won't go to sleep anywhere but his bassinet. It takes so long to get him to sleep that I often feel it's really not worth it with him. He seems to be going down for bed better now that his other naps during the day have gotten a lot better. Do you guys have any success with the catnap?
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Hi Sherry and welcome,
At that age, nothing work to calm my lo but maybe a pacifier might help. My lo wouldn't take it at that age. I don't exactly know what a miracle blanket is but you can use any blanket that is big enough to swaddle your baby. Truly, I was never able to have my dd to do a catnap so after many weeks of crying I decided not to do it. Let's say she was a bit OT (but she was if I try it or not) and I was better (one less nap, one less hour or two of crying). You can still try the catnap with sh/pat, if it's not working maybe you can put him to bed earlier.
Annie
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Welcome Sherry! As for the catnap, I had a hard time getting Elsie to bed that late as well, but eventually got her used to it by doing shush/pat through a couple of entire naps - I just stayed in the room with her and started shushing and patting again every time she stirred, and then after it had been about 30 minutes I left her to wake on her own. I don't know if you're able to do that, and it might not be worth it if he's not crabby before bed. I only had to do that for a couple of naps before she got it on her own.
Don't know that I'm much help on the wind down. Here's what we do: about 10 minutes before her A time is up, I pick Elsie up and we walk around the house, and I talk quietly about going to sleep and how good a nap is going to feel. Then about 5 minutes before, we go up to her room and close the curtains, turn on her lullaby CD, and then sit in the rocker (not rocking) and I read to her in a whisper while she sits on my lap. She mostly just chews on the books. I do that until she starts to fuss, and then I put her in her sleep sack, tell her again how good her nap is going to feel, and put her in her crib. Then I hide until she starts to fuss, and then shush/pat until she falls asleep (the whole thing usually takes about 15 minutes). If I put her in her crib before the first fuss, she won't go down, and if I try to shush/pat before the 2nd fuss, she won't go down. It takes a while to figure out exactly what works for your specific LO. Good luck to you! I know it's so complicated when they refuse to cuddle or rock - before Elsie, I didn't know there was such a thing as a baby who hated those things!
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Welcome Sherry and Lyle. FWIW, I used the MB well past 13 weeks with my first and with my second. It was great!
As for winddown, I also find that we can't do anything here. B is now 6.5mos and I still can't do reading or sitting together. My WD basically consists of carry her around downstairs for 10 or so min and letting her get a bit relaxed (of course, the spirit that she is has to be facing out, not over the shoulder so you can imagine how my back feels!). Then we head upstairs and I change her diaper and into the grobag (usually whispering a song). Then it's on my shoulder and that lasts for about 20 seconds while I whisper how good a 2 hr nap will feel (maybe one day she'll process that!). Then into the crib. Oh, it's also really dark in her room, but not pitch black.
Not much help on shh/pat. She hated it at that age and completely freaked. She took paci and would go out on her own. It was the nap extension I had a prob with.
Sounds like you are doing great and he is so young. I think that if you keep at it as hard as it is you will be sitting pretty when your lo is mine's age. How I wish she liked shh/pat back then so I could have extended some naps. Once I removed the swaddle naps went to hell!
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I have been camping out in his room. Especially for the first nap of the day. I find if that goes well, the rest goes much better. Right now for every nap, thankfully not bedtime it takes 20 min to get him to sleep, then sitting there for at least another 20 to help him through the transition. For the morning nap, I've just been waiting around til the 45 min and 1 hour mark. At 1 hr and 10 min I usually leave. I'm wondering how long I should do this for, because I don't want him to get use to me being a prop. If he takes a good morning nap I don't do this for the others. After a month of shear terror, things have become much better. He just slept through the night for the 4th night in a row. So at least that is better. I find that sometimes I'm still feeding at the 2 1/2 mark though when he doesn't sleep long. Do you guys think that is okay at 12 weeks? I know we have to start transitioning to the 4 hour schedule soon, but his awake time (when he's not ot) is still pretty short most of the time. When did you guys start transitioning. Was it really hard with a spirited on? His room is also pretty dark. In fact once the sun goes down it's pretty hard to see his little eyes.
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Hi guys..thanks for all the great support. It is now Day Seven....things have improved ;D - I now know she was so overtired. I feel so bad. But this working and she is sleeping much longer, naps and at night. I am so grateful that I found/read Tracy's book, as I did not want to do CIO.
This method is not easy by any means, but I am sticking with it and have seen great results already.
Last night she went to bed at 6:30p - Dad did the dream feed at 10:30 - she woke at 3am, I went in, shhhhhd and patted her, she went back to sleep. I did have to stay in for a bit as she jerks and wakes a few times..takes about 20 min until she is fully asleep. But no crying and no picking her up. Then she woke up at 5am. That was tougher..she just cut her first tooth and I am sure she is in pain from that too - . Took about 30 + min to get her back down after I fed her - .she then went right back to sleep. Had to then wake her at 7:30a :D I think the 4:30 cat nap works best for her. For quite time, we do a bath, go into her room, lights very dim, turn on very light classical music feed her, start to pat her back and shhhhhh. Then lay her down, she is out like a light !!! Thanks again for the encouragement !!
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Sherry - I wouldn't worry about 4 hr easy yet. Lots of LOs aren't ready for it at 4 months, and you're just at 12 weeks! Try to stick with 3 hrs when you can - and remember that sometimes EASAE is necessary when you have shorter naps. I used to hang out through almost the whole nap, too - that's SOO hard on a mommy, not having any Y time. Just try to be a little bit less of a prop gradually until one day you make the plunge and don't help at all. Maybe transition from sshh/pat to just sshh, and then sshh from farther away... I eventually got to the point where I just went into her room and stood silently through the transition to make sure she didn't wake.
Neeenah - sounds like great progress! Way to go!!
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Neeenah - yay! So glad you are feeling positive. It is not "easy" but it is so worth it. Just wait - when you have a toddler that goes to sleep anywhere and for the whole night and for naps while other kids are running amuck and so forth. You'll be so thankful! I certainly am!
Sherry - I agree with PP. Definitely try to stick with 3 hrs if you can, but if lo is hungry at 2.5hrs so be it. BW is about following cues so go with your gut. He is still so young.
For naps, I would definitely stay in there for a bit longer and gradually reduce how much you help. That's what I did and now I walk in, do WD, place her in crib and walk out.
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Thanks for the thoughts. Today for the last long nap I was able to leave while his eyes were still opening and closing. Yeah! He had a lot of trouble with the transition at 45 min. But I just shh/pt until it was time to get up and he had a fitful 30 min more of sleep. Right now we are waiting for tired signs to put him down for the catnap. So far, nothing much, so maybe he won't go down again.
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Hi everyone,
I'm Linds and my LO is Laura. She's 18weeks old and I've finally accepted that I have a Spirited/Textbook baby rather than a Textbook/Spirited!! ;D She is so lovely and fun but boy do we fight naptimes!!! At around 3months I finally felt like we'd cracked it. Naps and nightime were fine at last, we had a turning point when she discovered her thumbs! But during the last month everything has gone pear shaped again. I think it's due to growth spurt, possible teething, becoming more mobile and trying to transition naturally to a 4hr EASY. I suspect I'm overtiring her... :-[ I find it not too bad if I've had a good night's sleep but like this morning it took all my energy to get out of bed. I get sooooo fustrated because she can settle herself to sleep with her thumb but getting her to stay asleep is a nightmare as she won't settle herself. I keep thinking is it something I've done 'wrong'. Take this morning she woke early from her nap upset & wanting more sleep so I went in and did pat/shhhh. She looked at me and grinned and then started crying again!!!!! :-\ Sometimes I have to walk away for a few seconds to collect myself and goodness knows what will happen if we have another spirited one! I think if it's hereditary then I'm the spirited one but my parents let me cry it out (even when suffering from colic) as my mum told me (looking very distressed and guilty) so they can't remember having any 'problems' with me. Anyway when she smiles it makes it all worth it!!! So glad there is this thread and to know that we're not the only ones. Spirited babies give a lot of pleasure but also keep you on your toes (or in my case bent over the cot whispering sweet nothings into her ear!!).
Linds x
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Hi all,
Have posted on here before. We have had some success with sh/pat and wind down/bedtime routines as we can now put Alex down with very little fuss. I have learnt to read his sleepy cues and tend to follow his lead. He no longer fights being swaddled and seems to almost welcome it. This has really helped as he is so much calmer and falls asleep within 10 mins if I have read the cues correctly. This also means I get a little Y time. Yippee!
However, we are still struggling with short naps (always 45 mins to the minute) and I have tried everything to get him through transition. Wake 2 sleep didn't work at all. I know he is able to put himself back to sleep as he does it at night and for the final nap of the day (1 1/2 - 2 hours). He often wakes content and happy so could this be all he needs? Currently our EASY is more EASASE.
Any suggestions as to what we can try next?
Thanks
Jo and Alex (13 weeks)
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Linda I feel your pain....We are on Day 13: McKenna is doing great during the day (3 naps 2 at least an hour long..one at 30 min at 4:30) Dream Feed at 10:30p..well she hasn’t been so good at night. Up from about 2:30-4:30a - I pick her up..put her down…shhhushhhh and I pat her back...she'll fall asleep then wake in 5 min and this goes on and on. She then starts to roll over, sometimes even starts to giggle wants to play. Then she'll start crying, rubbing her face into the mattress...putting her knees into her chest...pulls at the bumpers.....I go out of the room for 1/2 hour or so.....she just won't fall back asleep!! We are so exhausted. Been like this for 3 days now. She was doing so good. She does put her self back to sleep about 1a. She cried last night around 11p,but she fell back asleep, so she is learning. She also did that during her nap yesterday. Fussed/cried then fell asleep on her own. She is so spirited, feisty and determined. Always wants to go, go, go go...loves to explore and move around on her tummy. Even in the middle of the night !!! ???
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hey I have a spirited baby too - phew, how anyone keeps their baby weight racing about after these monkeys i dont know!I love how in the photos posted of these babies, theyre almost all hilariously awake and buzzy; check them out, it made me laugh browsing through the past 13 odd pages! we're all in a very similar boat i think! love them, ;D proud of them but cor blimey theyre exhausting! :P
Im floating the 45 min nap canoe too - although am starting to get past having to carry the dd to sleep and at least a couple of naps in the last few days have been started from horizontal on the bed, breakthrough! nights have been going down like a dream too, from about 6.30 onwards ALTHOUGH from 12 it all goes a bit haywire and i think thats largely due to dummy deprivation. Thatll have to be addressed as soon as i can get the naps all happy in the cot... THEN ill do the 45 min nap thing - so many things nutty, all meaning i havent had more than 3 hours sleep in a row for 18 weeks - arrrg! BUT itll get there and shes just such as chirpy happy baby - just doesnt sleep! :-\
great to hear all your stories, love to hear successess too. we tried leaving her to cry - no no no not a chance! :o she got so irate that even just putting her into the cot was an trauma so she ended up in our bed and now is slowly returning to the cot! 4 hours of crying :'(and furious grabbing just didnt send her to sleep im afraid! dont think ill be trying that again!xxx
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Hi everyone. I haven't been on this thread in a long time. I am happy to see it is still around. My spirited DD is now almost three yrs. But I can relate to everything that is being said. The hardest part for me was my DD crying out the world before going to sleep!!! My new DD is 3 months old. She is textbook but her routine changes every three days...there is little consistancy with her plus she is very windy which causes problems...so even with a textbook baby it is not easy...no pun intended.
Sherry - I read your question..."has anybody found a good way to make a spirited baby more sleepy before you put them in the bassinet so that it doesn't take so long for them to go to sleep."
What was recommended to me was to do a "carry walk" in a pre wind down...in other words end your A time 5-10 minutes early and just do a quiet walk around your house carrying your LO. I always sang the same song. I found the spirited side of my DD needed to wind down before the actual wind down could really take hold.
RE: the swaddle...we hung onto it as long as we could. Once our DD rolled over on to her tummy that is when we gave it up. For us that was at 4 months. Then we switched to a Grobag. I was worried she wouldn't sleep etc...but she was fine.
As a side note, I was concerned how my DD's spiritedness would affect her as she got older. Would she always be such a challange to go to sleep? How would she do at nursery school etc? If anyone is having these thoughts please know that it will be okay! My DD is still spirited but now it shows itself as major excitement and a zest for life. As my sister says, my DD gets more out of life than most people. And at the same time, she is able to play quietly by herself and she is a very sensitive and loving big sister.
All the best!
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Completely agree with Janet. We also "WD before the WD"...by carrying Brooke around and singing her fave song. It really helps. When she was smaller I would do a longer time in the bjorn so she would chill out. Now it's only 5-10min. It's exhausting isn't it? But I also agree with J in that a spirited toddler is a true joy! Mine is now 27mos and wow to see how happy and full of life she is. And she was angel/spirited. This new one's spirited/angel, so we'll see! Crazy times!! With the spirited ones you sometimes have to go with the flow as they will wake and not go back down, etc., but BW big time pays off in the end!
Stay well ladies and spirited babes :)
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Hi everyone, how relieved am i to find this thread and realise that my baby is not one of a kind!!!! My son is 9 weeks old and we have done easy since day 1. Feeding has never been an issue but as i am sure you have guessed, going to sleep is the issue !! He fights like crazy. For a few weeks in a row i barely left the house so i could get a 'wind down' routine established along with SSH/PAT but this week i have given up. i dont feel my attempts achieved much except i have nearly gone insane not going out and just stressing about it. He will not put himself to sleep so i need to hold him in my arms while he fights me, crying until he drifts off. This week i have decided to go about my business as usual and have gone out the house every day. He doesnt like the car seat and usually cries and sometimes even falls asleep. i think this is the only time he falls asleep himself but i do feel guilty cos he cries without me being able to comfort him cos i am driving !!!
anyway, he has been a bit grumpy at bathtimes the last couple of days which is unusual but i think its cos he is just tired (from our outings) and wants to go to bed as he has gone down first time the last two nights. previously he was waking after 30 mins and needed to be resettled.
nap times are very brief and always takes at least a 10 minute fight beforehand.
it is very disheartening but understanding that it is just his personanlity and that he doesnt hate me, really helps :)
does anyone have any advice on how i can wind down better as to try and avoid the crying matches? i mean tonight for example, he fell asleep in my arms so i put him in his chair to sleep, he woke after 5 mins but never cried so i just left him and never let him see me. after about 10 mins i let him see me and spoke to him and he started crying !!! so i picked him up, he fought, i SSH/PT and then he fell asleep after 5-10mins. Do you think he wanted to go to sleep and that is why he cried when he saw me as if to ask for my help?
also, how come spirited babies can look so happy and awake but are actually very tired ARGH
at least it can only get better ;D
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Hi all - can I join in?
I think we qualify - we did the 'test' in the BW for Toddlers book last night and Leo (16 months) had the following scores:
Angel - 5
Textbook - 6
Spirited - 9
The Angel / textbook scores were all around E & S. The spirited side of him comes out in A time ::)
His older brother Toby was all angel / textbook, so I'm wondering if this is beacuse he's a second child, he has to fight for toys in the playroom, and gets very frustrated if Toby has things he wants ??? If he doesn't get what he wants, it seems as though his whole world has come crashing down and he'll sob bitterly!
So far I don't have any advice for other posters - I need to read through this thread properly myself! Just wanted to mark my spot!
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JKHH,
Thanks for the info on the wind down. I still struggle with that. I try to add things and it just overstimulates him, and as you guys all know holding them before hand does not work, he just wants to play and/or arch his back. He's been doing that as long as I can remember. As he is getting older, reading the cues is getting harder and harder. He is almost 4 months, wow. Any hints on trying to read a spirited guys sleepy cues at this age?
What is a Grobag?
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Tinynic,
I started BW at around 9/10 weeks. This is a really really tough time for the little guys. I have found with my little guy that he does not do well with a change in the routine. I'm assuming it is a spirited thing. That they need structure and to know what is coming next. I wanted to tell you that it does get much better. Also with spirited babies they get tired so fast, and we really don't do anything that is even a little stimulating because he gets so over stimulated. He is just so happy to be talked to and have attention paid to him that I don't feel he is missing out by not running the mobile, etc. Something that really helped me at that age is somebody on here told me to really watch his awake time. He really could only handle and hour of awake time. Which broke my heart because he took 40+ to eat, so by the time I changed his diaper etc. However, once I cut out the stimulating stuff, not even using the rocking chair, and made sure to put him down on time it got much better. Things really started to look up for me at 12 weeks. So even though staying home is maddening, I want to give you encouragement to stick with it. HTH.
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thanks sherrylnn for the encouragement.
i also dont use mobiles or toys, mainly because he really isnt interested. he is happy to sit in his chair with me talking to him. the main problem is that i know he is tired but when i pick him up to try and start his wind down, he just cries. its like he knows its coming and wants to fight it. or maybe he isnt ready to go down. it does really make you doubt if he is actually tired, or if hes hungry ARGH
anyway i am just going with the flow just now and keeping any outings to the morning. at this moment he is sat in his chair, kicking his arms and legs and cooing, staring at me, and i know he is sleepy cos hes been awake for almost 90 mins !!!!!! but i just have to wait for a cry and then push through the fight. :(
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Sherrylynn - glad that things are better for you. I haven't been on in a while and B is now 7mos! Wow, time flies...even with all the spirited crazines :)
Tinynic - welcome. Hugs to you! you sound exactly like me with Brooke at that age. I had an angel/spirited as my first child (now 2) so I was like, what the....I had no clue a baby could act so awake and be happily drowsy and show no sleep signs! But then I really paid attention to every little movement and her mannerisms (in between the screaming of course) and figured it out. It took a while but it worked. I started BW from the beginning as well and hoped it would work wonders. Well, it has. I second the pp that a routine with structure is a must as spirited types do like to know what's coming next. They really do thrive on routine early on, so kudos to you that you are a BW. I did find that with winddown it was particularly helpful to start the winddown downstairs...like a WD before the WD, iykwim? I would walk around with Brooke for 10 or so minutes and sing in a whisper or talk quietly about taking a nap. Then I would take her to her room (which is already darkened so she's not too stimulated by bright light walking in) and change her diaper and put her in the grobag. I turn on her music and her fan and then hold her for a minute and in she goes. Now, when she was your lo's age, I thought I had to walk her around with her and jiggle a bit to settle her. But I soon realized that all that was doing was OS her so that I got a short nap. I did swaddle then and use a sleep positioner and paci. I did try to sit with her, but all she'd do is stand on my legs and arch or grab at my face...still doesn't like it so we don't do it. Reading books or anything else during WD was too stimulating...she would kick her legs and go nuts, so I cut it all out. Our WD now is like 5 min or less once upstairs (of course there's 5-10 minutes of holding her dowstairs before that). I would say to really pay attention to A time and note any changes in her behavior that don't seem to matter, but would indicate she's tire...turning her head away from your face or scratching at her face/head/ears or generaly fussing. Mine never seemed to have tired signs and if I waited for the big yawn she was already OT and I was too late. So, I started to play with A time by 10 min increments and found what seemed to work and then started winddown 15 min before that with the walking, then upstairs to bed. HTH - pm me if you want to chat or have questions. Your situation sounds so similar to mine - it does get better, I promise :)
ps - Brooke often fought me going down when she was undertired at that age. Some fight if OT though, so maybe a look at your routine will help us :)
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Hi guys I am new to the site so to introduce myself I have 2 fabulous children my dd aged 3 years is a textbook/angel girl and has been a joy in every way possible and took to EASY and thrived on it within days of my starting to follow it. My ds however is 9 months old and a spirited/grumpy baby he was spirited/textbook for a while but the grumpy side has increased with age and it has been a challenging 9 months---!! I am so happy to find a support board for spirited babies because only parents of spirited babies can understand them! My ds is a great sleeper at night (but only since 7 months before that it was a total nightmare!!) he now sleeps 7pm to 7am most nights and will have at least one one hour nap and one 45 minute nap in the day. He also is a great eater loves his food and is very independent and I have had to allow him to have finger foods since he was 7 months old. He has been crawling since he was 7 months old and is now on the verge of walking and he is very impatient to get going. He falls all the time bangs his head and then screams not out of pain but out of sheer anger that he has been interupted in his task. If you tell him he cant do anything like eat an electric cable or climb behind the tv :) he just screams and gets really mad. He refuses to go to anyone other than me or my dd he will sometimes go to my mum but depends on his mood! When someone other than me or dh is holding him he screams and struggles to get away. I am sick of people saying to me "why does he cry so much" or "what is wrong with him". He is a challenging personality and at home with me he is funny, very clever with remarkable problem solving skills ( in my own unbiased opinion!!!) However, i now have to return to work in a month I have started him with our childminder who he knows well. He is fine for the first few minutes but then he will fall over or do something he shouldn't and then he realises I am not there and he just cries and cries and is inconsolable.I am terrified that because of his challenging personality she will not take to him and not learn to love him as much as she loves out dd!! Any tips for dealing with separation anxiety in a spirited baby?? I know that his separation anxiety is normal but the spirited side of him just seems to be making it more complicated!!! Sorry for ranting on so much to say and it is such a relief to find people who will understand!!
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Things are better, but the still aren't easy. I still spend most of his nap time in his room. But at least I can get him down for just about every nap. It takes about 20 minutes of fighting before he goes to sleep, but at least he does go to sleep now. I'm going to try to go to the 4 hour easy now that he's 16 weeks to see if that helps. Any suggestions?
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HI guys,
I posted this in the naps section and was wondering if you guys could help me out, since you have spirited babies too?
I am struggling with the 45 min naps, and have been the entire time I've been on EASY. I've been doing this for about 2 months now. I know wind downs should take about 15 minutes. Do you guys start the wind down after you see the first tired signs, or around the time you know you should be seeing the tired signs? I think I am putting him in his crib too early. He often yawns right when I put him in the crib. We use to fight OT all the time, so I made sure he was ready for bed at the first yawn. Maybe I should wait a little longer now? Maybe these 10-15 minutes after the first tired sign would be enough to break the 45 min monster?
When do you guys start walking around the house and quietly chatting and such?
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All my friends have angel or textbook babies, but I have a fiesty little go-getter. From the moment he popped out he was bright eyed, could hold his head up, and insisted on controlling the show from his bouncy chair. So you can imagine us at playgroup: all the other moms are smiling serenely as their docile little angel/textbook kid sits happily in their lap and looks at the wall, while my little guy screams his head off because I'm not bouncing him on my knee at the precise angle he likes. :)
He's five months old now and for the last month I've really started to appreciate his particular strengths and gifts. He's got personality plus and just loves to get in on a good joke. He'll laugh his head off if anyone else in the room is laughing about anything at all! He's curious and smart and has an incredible attention span if he's interested in something. And while he sometime tries to boss mommy around, at least I never have to guess what he wants :)
And this post is done... after half an hour of trying to get him down for a nap, he has slept all of 20 minutes. Sigh!
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hey julesd!
welcome - we sound like we're in the same boat! my dd was just the same - from birth, could pop her had around and always wide eyed, not missing a trick!fabulous but exausting no?!
mum groups are so funny, other babies just cooing gently while mine tries to climb up and scale me, roll across the room or shout and scream just cos shes found her voice!
sighxxxoff again, the madam is calling...
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hey dredhead
That sums it up: "fabulous but exhausting!" How old is your DD? Did you struggle to get her to nap/go to bed at night? Did you find anything that worked?
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FWIW - A lot of spirited babes need complete darkness to sleep. I mean like even put electrical tape over the little green light on your monitor. I used to say that Brooke knew where the camera was and wanted to be famous 'cause she would always stare right into it. Turns out the little green light distracted her...nosy little thing!
For those who are new, Brooke is almost 7.5mos. I have an angel/spirited toddler (2yrs) as well. Feel free to pm me anytime with specific questions and I'll try to help. I did write earlier (top of this page I think) about winding down...seemed to help me and another mom of a spirited babe here.
Good sleep vibes!
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oh yesss! have posted many times now on both napping AND sleep times!
currently tearing my hair out over both!!!!and have been since day1!
sometimes i get really stressed by the whole thing and other times i just laugh it off!
today after a(nother) night of broken 1 or 2 hours sleep for a total of 5 hours overnight im not particularly in the laughing mood! and knowing she wont nap more than 45 mins (and that after a fight) isnt making things funnier this morning!
have left dh upstairs to get a few more hours without the wriggle monkey wrestling twins.
The only thing left to try for naps is a blackout blind but im having to wait till dh payday first.a tight month this one as im on last remnents of maternity leave now ( ouch!)
good luck , love to hear your progress!!xxx
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I used to say that Brooke knew where the camera was and wanted to be famous 'cause she would always stare right into it. Turns out the little green light distracted her...nosy little thing!
that is so funny because we have been laughing at my son saying he is a poser because he ALWAYS look straight into the camera. getting his passport picture done was easy ..... now i know why. ;D
in response to the other posts. I am by no means an expert but i think my boy is a spirited child = 11 weeks old. when he started 45 min and 30 min naps i really thought i was going to go crazy. it felt like i spent nearly all my time in his room trying to get him to sleep . we would have lots of crying fits before his naps but in the end i decided to chill out a bit. i take him out the house more, mainly in the morning as he is better then and he is learning to fall asleep on the go without crying. when we are home, i dont try to put him down after every A time. i wait until i see him grumble then i help him sleep and this week we have had less crying beforehand and hes sleeping longer, sometimes 1hr 30 mins. after his morning feed, he doesnt always sleep until after his next feed and if hes happy then im happy. today i think he only slept a total of 3 hours during the day (from 7-7) :o but he was happy. i have found that the more naps he took during the day, the more disrupted his nighttime sleep was. He now sleeps from 7.30 to about 12/1 and then to about 4/5 and then to 7/8.
someone said to me on here that spirited babies love routine and its true. he loves his morning and bedtime routine. during the day i dont really have one except he eats every 3 hours and i am working on this. i dont currently have a wind down as ive never yet been successful with anything but ill keep trying, im just fearful of trying to get him to sleep when hes under tired as i think i was doing this before.
dont give up. choose what you are going to do and stick with it.
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Hi Tinynic - reading some of your posts reminds me of how my Laura was a couple of months ago. She's 5months old now and the spirited side really shows in her eating and sleeping. She does confuse me sometimes because when she's tired or hungry she'll blow raspberries! The only way I know she's tired is because she'll start babbling and gets quite violent throwing her stuffed toys about. I've had to restrict hard rattles to when I'm there o/w she'll bash herself on the head. with her flailing arms! Things are tons easier now when we're out and about because even though she might get tired I can distract her. Up until she was around 3 months old she would scream and scream and scream because she was tired but wouldn't conk out on me like my friends' babies. So many times I ended up giving her a comfort feed in the hope she'd nod off :-[ .
I've lost track of the hours I've spent trying to get her to sleep during naptimes and then it turned into hours trying to keep her asleep! I too tried spending a block of days together to try and crack the sleep thing. Nowadays, for my sanity more than anything if I can't get her back to sleep then I'll take her for a walk. I know she can do 2hr naps because she will do them sporadically. We have a very simple WD, change nappy in her room, read a story and then close blind & curtains before having a cuddle for a few mins.
Now eating is too boring/my let down isn't fast enough!! I've had to start giving her a bottle for one feed (esp if out and about) because her head's turning this way and that!! She can chug 8oz in 10mins :o !!!!!!! Still now we've started first tastes it's great that she loves food and will embrace any new experience. She'll try anything - even quite lumpy things although she can't quite manage them just yet. She really wants to feed herself though so I give her an empty spoon to practice with.
It's been really interesting having a nose on this thread and reassuring to know that routine is the way forward. The fun things about having a slightly spirited LO outweigh the bad (esp when I've had enough sleep lol)! I've come to the conclusion that sometimes there's no clear cut answers why our naps sometimes go like the book says and other times are a nightmare so I just try to roll with it - although that's easier said than done given my personality!!!!! I try to be consistent while at the same time being pragmatic and P.C. - it's hard though eh?!
Linds x
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Well I have finally found my home :) only read 2 pages cos it's only in the last 2 months I discovered that ds is now spirited, he was textbook spirited but now its more spirited. He has been flying round the place on his belly for 2 months now and is in to everything. He got the loo brush the other day cos dd left the door open and I was answering the front door, the fuss when I pulled it off him. And he screams when things dont go his way. He gets so frustrated when he cant do what he wants, right now its trying to put himself in a sitting positon from his belly. When he is awake he is awake that's it no matter how long he has slept or what time it is. He is always manky dirty from the floor which is mopped every 2 days or from feeding which is just a blast, he rubs it in his eyebrows hair ears etc. With regards to sleep I find that he needs his routine, even more so than dd who was an angel. And yes re the dark room, I have a black out blind on his window but it lets some light in at the sides so I taped it to the window which means I cant open it or the window so I have ordered another one to under the one i have. Dh thinks I am crazy but if it helps him sleep I dont care how much it costs :-)
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OMG Fiona - Welcome and LOL at the blinds taped to the wall. I should definitely do that! I actually have a dark blue sheet over Brooke's windows on top of the blackout blinds and her curtains so there is no light. It's too bad as her curtains are so cute! But, she sleeps so much better that way. My DH thinks I'm a nut, but oh well.
Nicola - LMAO at the passport pic coming out great...see...they are so nosy!!! Glad to hear of your new attitude and that you seemed to have found a bit of a routine :) FWIW, lots of spirited babes need less sleep than that recommended or the least amnt. recommended for any particular age.
Linds - welcome! I wanted to tell you that naps for Brooke didn't really settle themselves until 6.5 mos old. Whomever said that naps sort themselves at 6 mos definitely had an angel baby! For us, the early days were spent with endless extending efforts and shortening A time due to short naps, etc. The only time before now that she napped well was 3-5mos when she was swaddled and on a side positioner (and even then I had to replug 4 million times per nap!). Great attitude that you have...I had such a hard time not trying to make everything go a certain way.
To give you all some hope - I really mean that it only gets easier. Spirited babes are so fun! Funny that I had no idea what I was in for though as my first was angel/spirited. I really had no clue that all babies didn't fall asleep in the car, swing, stroller, on the go, on mom's chest, at the bottle, etc. When I had Brooke I was at such a loss as she wouldn't fall prey to any AP (even if it was on purpose!!). She would pretty much scream at everything as she was so easily OS and then got cumulatively OT! At least if I have a 3rd I know what not to do! LOL. But, now at 7.5mos, she's so happy! I have to laugh as she's into everything. Driving her sister crazy trying to get at whatever she's playing with. Sitting, crawling, creeping, rolling...you name it...she does it all like a maniac...as if the world would end if she didn't get to whatever it is in 2 seconds flat. My first would sit in the pack n play for a long time, but not Brooke. Brooke will push her face into the mesh and try to break out! And now she's only wants to stand. Desperately trying to pull up, but only makes it to her knees and sometimes one leg up. With a little help she can stand holding the furniture forever and if you sit her down she screams as if you stabbed her! I can't keep up and I think I'm in trouble when she starts walking!!!
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Robyn you have just described Kian to a t. He just will not be still. He is up 2.5 hours now and dressed an hour. all his clothes are wet and dirty so another complete change to be done, I change all clothes about 3 times a day he spits up a lot too with his reflux. Right now his head is wet with sweat from rushing round the place. But he is so funny, he comes after you laughing and has now started saying da da da da. I could never ap him either no matter how hard I tried and I tried very hard when he had colic :)
With regards to sleep yes Kian seems to need little though I often wonder if he is over tired, he only does 10.5 or max 11 at night and about 2.5 during the day. And yes I think he will walk early and I know I am in trouble :)
Linds I love your attitude, could you send some of it my way please? I still havent learned that I cannot control this little man, well control as in more routine, each day I say ok whatever happens happens but then I get so frustrated. So as it looks like I found my new home I will be back more often, probably a night time poster as days tend to be just a bit busy ;D
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Hi,
thanks guys for the encouragement! Yes I used to drive myself crazy scouring the boards for tips on A time and extending naps and nothing seemed to work! I count my blessings that I get 45mins to myself each naptime but 1.5hrs would be nicer
;D . Just spent 20mins coaxing her back to sleep after she woke up early because I really need another 5mins to myself (not sleeping very well - me not Laura(!!!) - so v tired). Definitely getting blackout curtain linings and a blackout blind!! Short naps would be fine if she woke up happy!
Fiona - don't fret, I get fustrated too some days and Laura has reflux too. IKWYM about the constant changes of clothes. I think dealing with the reflux is more draining than the short naps. Laura's not in pain/discomfort anymore but is still quite sicky despite being on gaviscon. She's desperate to get crawling but at the moment clothes & nappy are stopping her lol. At bathtime tummy time it's a different story!
Linds x
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I didn't know not being able to AP was a spirited thing. I have tried my hardest to AP my little spirited guy for the cat nap. He will not take a cat nap. He just cried for a whole half hour this afternoon while I tried to put him down. And my thought was great! Now he will be even more tired than he would have been if I just let him stay up. More days than not he is up from 3:30/4 until bed time. Which I tried for a 6:30 bedtime tonight. He was finally asleep at 7:10. The whole time I was trying to put him down I'm thinking, why can't you just sleep in a swing/stroller/car or on mom like other kids. :D At least we don't have to work on breaking those habits, right. I'm trying so hard to come to terms with the lack of control we have in all this. I have come to realize that I'm not as flexible as I thought I was. I thought I was a flexible person. But most of that ill feeling comes from feeling like we've failed. I decided that I need to look at it like this, we haven't failed as long as we keep trying to keep them on the routine. As long as we try we are doing well. :)
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Hello,
I'm new to this board and just discovered my DS is spirited. He is 6 months old today and I thought he was textbook/touchy, but now I'm realizing he is spirited although he is happy alot! NAPS are a joke, he will lay in bed for 1 hour and just not sleep! It has been hard since day one and I kept thinking it would get better when he got older and it's only getting harder. I also have a 23 month old who was an angel baby, sleeping like a dream since day one. The only thing I have going for me is he goes to bed with no problem between 6-6:30 (so early cause he doesn't nap well) and wakes between 5-6 for a bottle, and goes right back to sleep. Any advice for getting him to nap better?? Thanks!
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JulieNG,
No advice here. I have my happy little spirited guy right next to me here. Talking away, he's 4 1/2 months and he's been up for 3 hours :D
I guess I tried to put him down to early, and he just sat in his crib talking and talking. He got fussy once or twice and I went in, with the hopes of putting him down. Then I had to get in the shower because we have somewhere to go today.
Out of curiosity, after your LO goes back down in the morning, what time does he get up for the day.
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JulieNG - welcome! The sprities ones sure are fun, but a handful too. I also have a toddler (28 mos this Sunday) and boy do I go nuts some days. Wow - 17 mos apart, eh? And I thought mine were close at 20 mos apart! It's so good now compared to when Brooke was younger (she'll be 8 mos on Sunday). As for naps, it's like learning a magic trick and once you find the right thing, you'll be all set! Lots of trial and error here. Tell me, what's your winddown like? Do you have the room darkened? Paci, lovey, etc? How much A time are you at? Hope I can help!
Sherrylnn - LOL that we were trying to AP while others were trying to avoid AP! Brooke always screamed for the catnap. She would go down for it, but boy was it rough. I finally decided it just wasn't worth it as she would scream and be so annoyed for 20-30 min for just a 20-30 min sleep. And it didn't seem to affect her when I dropped it as I pushed up bedtime. Now she goes to bed at 6:30 (asleep by then I should say). You so reminded me of me posting that Brooke would be up from 2:30/3:00 until bedtime if she didn't catnap and it was far too long at that point, so I just cut out the catnap at 6.5 mos and pushed bedtime. She's so much happier now. She literally asks for bed by starting to fuss at 6:15 and the minute we start putting on jammies she's fine as she knows where she's going. Too cute.
Fiona - OMG - too funny! Kian does sound exactly the same! Thankfully we've found each other here as I thought I'd go mad. Esp. with my mother saying "I've never seen a baby that wouldn't rock to sleep." I was like, well, you have now! And my first fell prety to every AP with no effort. She was AP'd to the max and that must be why I got the complete opposite this time. Even dressing here these days is like climbing Mt. Everest. She literally sits up, tries to crawl away, then stands up using my clothing as her pull up. AHHHHHHH!!!!! If I gave up she'd be crawling/standing around naked! Always changing clothes here too. No official reflux diagnosis, but P had it and I'm sure B does. She's happy, so the paed said not to worry, but I think my new carpet is completely covered in spit up. And the hiccups are just the best. How great that he says "da da da." Brooke has been saying something resembling "ma" and "mmmm" and the "ooooooo" is hilarious. She pretty much copies Paige, so it should be interesting.
As for his sleep...Brooke will be 8 mos on Sunday and is doing 11.5 at night (sometimes 12) and 3ish during the day. She sometimes surprises me with more during the day but not often.
Linds - I too wish I could be more lax in my attitude. On the 6-12mo thread I have said over a million times that I'm going to "go with the flow"...yeah, right. No, seriously, I had a major problem with that earlier, but I have learned that it's just not worth it. If we have a crap nap or a crap day, I just adjust the day and roll with it. Much easier. That said, I am like a nut sticking with the routine though. It's like I savor every little sleep bit they both take (Paige is spirited too, but more angel). When I feel myself getting frustrated I just tell myself that we'll be fine. She's so good at playing now and moving all about so she really entertains herself (or Paige does), so it's a lot better than when I would have to carry her around for the entire day if she got off track.
Brooke is pulling up now. Of course she did it for the first time in the crib. She was awake yesterday morning and cooing and stuff, so I always leave her be (as it's usually earlier than I would prefer). I peeked at the video monitor after a bit as she was starting to sound annoyed and there she was in her Grobag, standing...peering over the side of the crib gumming the crib rail and yelling for her binkies that she had thrown overboard. She did it again at first nap today, so DH dropped the crib down one more level so she can no longer stand over the rail. She's now confined, in jail, going nowhere...phew! I think she'll be the type to try and climb out at 18 mos...please pray for me that she doesn't :)
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pbmom, yes, 17 months apart and I am crazy most of the time. I agree it is a lot better now than when my LO was a newborn. I was so tired I can barley remember! I have done soo much trial and error for naps its amazing. I still have not found the perfect thing. I have tried every A time imaginable and it seems he is different each day. When I find an A time that works and I think "oh, this is it" I try the next day and it doesn't work! My winddown isn't much b/c of my older DD. I usually just go in his room, change him, turn on white noise, shut blinds and either read book or hold him in my arms for a few minutes and then put him down. He used to take the paci but doesn't want it anymore. He sucks his thumb. I am basically at 1.5-3 hrs A time. It totally depends. In the morning if he wakes at 5:30, he'll go back to sleep till 7. If he wakes between 6-6:30 I'll keep him up for an hour to 1.5 hours. Sometimes he'll go right back to sleep at 6. Between 1st and 2nd nap it's usually 2 hours if we are at home. Then sometimes I'll put him down and he will not sleep in crib for 1 whole hour and then I'm so crazy that I'll leave the house and he'll sleep. He is usually up from 3-3:30-6:6:30. He will only take a catnap if we are in the car. I have tried this nap since day one and he found late afternoon sleep.
Sherrylnn, When DS wakes between 5-6, I'll feed him and I always put him back down and he'll sleep for about an hour and a half more. If he wakes around 6-15-6:30 I keep him up cause he usually goes to bed bet 6-6:30 so I feel bad putting him back to sleep cause it's already been 12 hours.
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JulieNG - if he wakes early and eats, then when does he feed again? Upon waking or 4 hrs from last feed? I ask b/se I did do this with Brooke 2 times when she woke early a while back thinking it was a GS and she did eat, but then didn't want to eat well for the a.m. feed so we were all messed up. I decided that I would leave her be if she wakes early unless she does the I NEED YOU cry and she has gone back to sleep on her own after I stopped rushing in.
oops...B's up I'll write more later :)
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pbmom,
Well today he woke at 5 and he drank 5 oz and then back to sleep till 8. That is rare, normally it would be till only 7ish and then I'd feed him at 7 and he would only eat around 3 oz or so. Do you think he really needs that feed or I should leave him and see what happens.
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Hi Ladies,
Have a rare quiet moment, dd on couch reading a "magazine" and ds sitting on play mat with a book , 2 angels ;D not.
Julie With regards to the 5 am wake up, I find if I feed ds ( watered down bottle) then he really doesnt have an interest in his am bottle and then it really really messes up the day. Our wake up now seems to be stuck at 6 and I can usually leave him until about 6.30, yesterday he fell back asleep at 6.50 and woke 7.25. He just chats and gives out, yells a bit and then eventually it becomes an I need you cry.
We had a crap nap day yesterday, I put him down 2 hours after wake up cos the carpenter was supposed to come and I knew he wouldnt sleep if he was here, so after 15 mins of giving out he did sleep which shocked me, woke at 45 mins, ok, if he does that then he usually does a long pm nap, well he did an hour pm nap ??? So he was up from 2.45 pm until 7.20 pm and needless to say was unsettled until about 9.30. We had to go out yesterday afternoon and tbh by now I am so sick of staying home for naps and bedtimes that I decided to go regardless, it's not fair to dd either. He was fine though all afternoon so not sure if the unsettledness was ot or teeth, kind of think teeth. On a positive note I managed to get dd into preschool for 3 mornings a week, she was on a wait list and she starts April 6th, that is sooo far away though, costs a shocking amount of money too, or at least I think so.
Ok so Kian is under the table, think that's the end of my peace..........oh and just remembered he dropped his lunch time bottle yesterday, hope it's just a one off.
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Hi gals,
My LO one does the same things and 5 and/or 6. I'm so afraid to leave him be a lot though because he can only handle so little awake time in the morning. Currently about 1h20m (he is about 4 /12 months old). I sit there and think, oh he'll resettle, and then if he doesn't :o I'm guaranteed a 36 min nap, which he may or may not be able to be resettled. He is driving me nuts with not being able to read his cues though. Last week the 1h20m time for the first A worked wonders. Yesterday and today he woke after 36 min. I don't know what that is all about. Yesterday morning he had slept well all through the night. Today, maybe his 5 wake/resettle made him tired. It took 30 min to get him back down, then he woke chatting at 6:20 and he started fussing at 6:40.
Pbmom, I'd love to hear some of the things you tried to find that magic. I'm hoping that he will get better at this nap thing at 6 months, but often I think I'm just going to have to learn how to wing it a lot better. I am still so thankful to BW because the melt downs at night are so fewer and far between, and even though he has trouble napping he has made improvements.
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Hiya!
pbmom - IKWYM about savouring sleep! About the only time my LO isn't sick is when she's asleep so I sometimes get a tad obsessed by naps (but less so now)!! Will definitely pray for you that Brooke doesn't learn how to leap over the cot railing!! Any pointers on your magic would be great for us too! I don't have loads of things going off but do have quite a lot of toys out in one go :-[ !!!!
Sherrylynn - I find it hard to read my LO's cues too. I'm never quite sure if she's just OS or tired or both!!
I can get Laura down for a nap fairly easily most days but she gets so wound up if (when more like!!) she wakes early from a nap that she lifts her torso and then rolls over which makes her mad (she can only sleep on her tummy). She then rams her fist in her mouth which sometimes makes her sick so I never like to leave her too long if I hear unsettled noises just in case. I hope I'm not setting myself up for having to break a bad habit later on :( . She can resettle herself though because occaisionally I'll hear one or two little cries and then nothing. I'm so glad I found this thread because before I was getting so annoyed that despite not doing any AP and spending days teaching her, my LO still can't do decent naps and resettle herself consistently. That was when I started to go out for walks and preserve my sanity but still trying to keep to the routine but feeling guilty for not sticking to the routine! At least i know it's not just us! My mum and inlaws have never seen anything like it especially when I go in to resettle her and it sounds like I'm murdering her! Her spiritedness really shows when she's eating rather than at playtime. I've switched to giving her bottles in the day because she was barely taking anything at the breast after the initial guzzlefest and then waking in the night for food. It would be guzzle guzzle for 5mins on each side and then stop start for 5mins and then she was bored or flailing around trying to grab my hair, my clothes or so busy nosing around that I got bored!! So much for make sure you have your snacks and water and phone and TV handy - first the tv went, then the snacks and finally I can't even have a drink because she stops to watch me!! At bedtime I have to feed her in her room - in the dark :o
Best go and enjoy the rest of my break before it's feeding time!
Linds x
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Well, my long post with "magic" (LOL!) just vanished into cyberspace - hate that!
Julie - what's a full feed? If 5oz is close to a full feed I'd say it's needed. But the smaller first bottle makes me think that it's more a habit. You would need to increase slowly the amnt of daytime bottles and then start cutting out some at that 5am to ensure he's getting the same amnt overall. It would be similar to a DF wean I think that T describes in her Solves All Your Problems book.
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OMG another post gone...having trouble - be back later. Here's the gist (feel free to pm me if you want details :))
Our magic lies in:
- a short winddown (already darkened room before we go in is key for Brooke)
- learned her mantra cry (left her if doing it (don't rush in))
- gave up on nap extension attempts and adjusted day instead (catnap and early bedtime)
- she's older and wiser (haha) - seriously though I think development and age had a lot to do with it
- solids established
I'll be back later to post in length with my failed and successful efforts. B is up :) Gotta run.
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A normal feed for DS is 5-6 oz and he will usually drink 5 oz at 5am ish. Any advice on changing his solid eating pattern around. I usually feed him solids at 5pm and then he is never hungry for a bottle right before bed around 6-6:30. Maybe that is why he is getting up so early to eat? Normally our day is this:
5-6am, drink 5 oz
back to bed till 7:30-8:00
Drink only about 3 oz cause he is not hungry from the big 5am feed
an hour later solids (usually around 9)
Nap 10-11
Sometime between 11-12 bottle (some days he can go 4 hours, some 3 to 3.5)
1-2 nap
around 3 bottle
sometimes another nap around 4 if we are in the car, if not it's really hard to get him to sleep at home at this time which is why he will go to bed at 6
5 solids
6 bottle (usually will only drink 1-2 oz at this time).
Any suggestions?
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Julie how old is your ds again? Ds is the same if I give him solids at 5 or even earlier he will not drink his bedtime bottle. So what I do is give his bottle and then his solids, I dont really like it as I feel he goes to bed really soon after a very big meal but it's what works for the moment. So our eating schedule is
7.00 240 ml bottle
7.45 Ready Brek or Weetabix with milk
Lunch depends on the day but I find if I split lunch it works better so if we are at home
11 or 11.30 solids and tiny bit of diluted juice from cup ( for practice more than anything else)
12.30 Bottle- usually 100 ml but can be up to 150 ( if we are out then it's solids then milk here)
15.45 Bottle- usually around 130 can be up to 180 like yesterday
18.30 Bottle 200 to 240 ml, followed straight away by solids, usually 5 veg cubes and then some fruit mixed with a bit of baby rice and milk ( usually doesnt finish this). He normally finishes eating by about 6.50 pm and is in bed by 7.30.
I would prefer him to have solids around 5.30 with a bottle at 7 cos I feel that having his last bottle at 6.30 means that he is really ready for his morning one at 6.30 though I hold him out til 7 ( mean Mommy ) ;D
Hth a bit ,
Fiona
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Julie - So a full feed at 5, eh? Hmmm...you are lucky that he goes back to sleep until 7:30 or 8am. I was going to say that your total naptime seems short, but the total day sleep is like 15 1/2hrs (assuming he's asleep by 6:30pm). So that's not bad. I kind of think of your extra morning sleep as a first nap and I'm jealous that he sleeps in like that. If you wanted to change it I'm sure you could, but your day would have to start earlier and I'm not sure I would want that :)
Definitely remind me how old he is? 6 months? Seems like a long stretch from end of second nap until bed. Brooke isn't even doing that long and I know she's older than he is. May be contributing to that early waking. I did read somewhere that early wakings are linked with the A time (OT) that happens in the afternoon. And, wakings soon after going to bed are linked to the morning A time (OT). Interesting theory and seemed to apply here. When she's OT going to bed we have EW. Just a thought.
As for solids, we just started the 3rd meal with Brooke. She gets up from afternoon nap between 3:30 and 4pm and eats her bottle at 4pm. I do solids immediately following as if I do it later (I was doing 1 hr later), then she's not hungry for her bottle at 6:15. Since starting the third meal we've had 2 early morning poops, which has never happened. So, hopefully pushing it earlier will help. Could you do solids 1 hr after the bottle (so like 4pm?). Then there would be a larger gap between solids and bottle. And when you switch to solids before bottle for all meals, you can just combine the two. At that point he'll be older. I'm so not a solids expert, but this seems to be working for us and we have an early bedtime like you.
Fiona - I used to always keep B's bottle at 7 (unless she woke at 6, then I'd do earlier). You're not mean 'cause that would mean that I am :) We're just trying to keep some consistency in the a.m. helps the rest of the day. Now she eats it between 6:45-7:00.
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Hello everyone,
Thank you for all of your help so far.
pbmom, DS just turned 6 months on Feb 29. It really is a long stretch to bed and I've tried really hard to implement a catnap. On some days he will take it at 4 (if he's been up since 2) or if we are in the car. Sometimes I'll put him in bed at 4 and he'll cry/play/babble till 5 and not sleep. I do think it's probably contributing to the early waking.
Today went like this:
Woke at 4am and drank 6oz within minutes (last big bottle last night was probably around this time, I'm hoping that is one of the problems here, once I change around the solids maybe we can avoid this?)
Woke again at 7, drank 4 oz
8 solids
9 nap till 9:40
Tried to put him down at 11:45 cause it had been 2 hours and he was still up at 12:30. I got him up and fed him at 1 (drank 3 oz) and he was in slept from 1:20 ish-3
Woke at 3. This is my problem area. Now it's almost impossible to get him down for another nap, which is why he went to bed at 6 tonight. He definately was tired. At what time would you try for a nap when he wakes at 3? I've tried putting him down at 5 and he'll fuss for an hour and then it's almost bedtime. Although I haven't tried this in awhile.
4 bottle ( he was starving here and I should have gave him solids right after maybe but I waited till 5, then he didn't want anything before bed at 6. What should I have done??
Fiona, I'm from the US and I'm not sure on your times. What is your LO's nap schedule like and how old?
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Julie I am in the middle east so think about 12 hours ahead of you??? Not sure tbh.
6 months was when ds started dropping the catnap or rather just suddenly dropped it one day . He used to be up at 3.30 cat nap between 5.15 and 5.30 but it was only for 20 to 30 mins and I woke him from it, always awake by 6 for an 8 pm bed time. Worked great.
Ds is just gone 8 months old. Honestly the last 2 months have been pretty crazy with night wakenings and ew too but I will give you our approx schedule.
6.30 Wake up ( can sometimes be 6 and he may drop back, will leave him as long as possible chatting)
7.00 ish E bottle and solids so solids end up close to 8 am
9.30 Nap, usually around an hour give or take 15 mins
11.30 E solids
12.30 Bottle
13.45 Bed, this was at 13.30 until this week and am having trouble here. Sometimes he will do 2 hours which is what I aim for but for the last few days he has only done 1 hour.
15.30 E bottle
18.30 Bottle and solids
19.30 Bed
If he wakes early from his pm nap he goes to bed at 7.15 and I will keep trying to work on getting that earlier but it's difficult as from 6.00 on dd needs help too with dinner supper bathroom etc.
Ds has always been able for a long wake up time right from day one and has been on 3 hours now for a good 2 months. I am going to play around a bit with the mid day wake time and see how long he needs in order to get a 2 hour nap in the pm. My thinking is that I have to start to limit the am one soon as I dont want him sleeping past 3.30 and would like nap time to be 1.30, but that's a whole other post :-)
With the solids and the 4 pm bottle, yes you could have tried him with a small amount right after that bottle and he should still have had a bottle then for bedtime. If he refuses his bottle would he have more solids? Ds has done this a few times, not ideal but at least it was food in his tummy. Yesterday he had his bottle at 3.30 and by 4.30 was following me around the kitchen looking for food, so I gave him his solids, he did drink his bottle at 6 and have some cereal after. Today though he refused his lunch bottle so will see how that goes. Now wouldnt some consistency be great :)
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At what time would you try for a nap when he wakes at 3? I've tried putting him down at 5 and he'll fuss for an hour and then it's almost bedtime. Although I haven't tried this in awhile.
4 bottle ( he was starving here and I should have gave him solids right after maybe but I waited till 5, then he didn't want anything before bed at 6. What should I have done??
Okay, I have to be honest that I was so sick of the catnap fight/play that you describe that I gave it up for her at 6 months. Best thing I ever did. She immediately settled into 2 nice naps. I knew her A time wasn't quite to 3 hrs yet, but I did it anyway (that's the number it needs to be for the 12 hr day to work with 2-1.5hr naps). So, I just walked around with her a lot at the end of A time so she wouldn't get OT. I think you are getting a short first nap b/se your A time isn't long enough. A girl on my birth club added 15 min to hers and got a nice nap out of it, so maybe worth a shot.
As for the bottle thing, I think you probably have to play with it a bit and see what works. I have been really trying to stick to 6:30, 11/11:30, 3:30, 6:15. She can go 5hrs between feeds, but then like you said the 4pm bottle is too close to bedtime one and she drinks poorly. So, I've been doing 3:30 bottle and then 4:30 solids. I just moved solids from 5pm to 4:30 as she's been pooping in the early a.m. (which she's never done before), so I was thinking if I gave her more time to digest before she went to bed maybe we could avoid the 5:47am poop! TMI - sorry :) I'm really trying to figure out how to make this work for us. I have been perusing the 6-9mo routines to see if there's anything that would work. If I come across something, I'll post it. Do you have the BWSAYP book? There's an example on p.38.
You both should think of popping over to the 6-12mo birthclub - lots of great help and people who have been through virtually every scenario possible. They are under EASY (I think).
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Fiona - just read your post - consistency? What's that??? Hahaha. I'm struggling with the possible bottle drop too...what are your thoughts on 3 bottles at this point as our los are so close in age? I was thinking to make the 3rd bottle a "snack" with the solids instead and do it in between where bottle and solids go now (say 4pmish)? Can't remember what I did with DD1. I know she held onto bottles though and din't fight/drop them on her own. This one's toooooo nosy and would rather play than eat. Esp. during the midday time slot. Maybe we should start a thread elsewhere on this?
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Robyn dd gave up her bottles at 8 months, was in a panic but in hindsight she just went to 4 solids and it was great,she was such an easy baby.
With regards to the lunchtime bottle I am prett undecided. One school of thought says they no longer need it at this age, particularly if they are having protein for lunch which ds is as it inhibits iron absortion. Ds only had a small lunch with no milk, only 2 sips from his cup then refused his bottle and i got a 2 hour nap. I offered 240 ml at 3.30 cos I didnt want to do solids in the early pm as he frequently refuses his bottle. He drank 200 ml and was following me around the kitchen by 6 looking for food. I had to dry dds hair so I popped him in his chair and gave him a baby biscuit, have never seen him chew so well then he had a full 240, veg dinner and some fruit.
I am thinking of offering the lunch bottle after a good solid feed, if he takes it great then if not ok. Will just offer more milk like I did today. I think if I offer solids too early like around 4 it will interfere with the evening meal and cause an even earlier wakening. Am I making sense? In total ds had 680 ml today which is almost 24 oz and 3 good solid meals. If you start a thread let me know, but bw policy or ideal seems to be 4 bottles til about 1 year.
On another note have been reading the birth thread 6-12 but honestly cant keep up for posting. Saw you mentioned a breathable bumper, are you putting it inside or outside the cot bars if you know what I mean? Ds desperately trying to get up and we have wooden plank legs when I put him sitting so expecting new probs soon, very soon. Though some bumpers might help but dont want him to start trying to pull them off.
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Thanks...I think I started a thread on bottle feeding...let me see (8 mo old refusing bottles maybe?).
Oh yeah, the breathable bumper is actually also a crib rail guard (it goes over the rail and fastens), so it covers the entire side and there is no way for them to use it to pull up. Brooke is already using the crib rail to pull up and that's why I looked into it instead of the traditional bumper I currently have (plus it keeps teeth marks away as she's already gumming the top of the rail). HTH. I'll let you know when it arrives!
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Oh I like the sound of that. Can you let me know where you got it? Will have to get it on line as I know already there is nothing like that here.
Will check out your feeding post tom, it's almost midnight and I so should be in bed :)
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Fiona - go to bed...here's where I got it. It should arrive on Sat. I think.
www.securebaby.com/crib_shields_all.html
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Thank you for all your help! I will try everything.
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HI Everyone,
I am so glad that I've found this spirited lo message board. My dh and I were laughing the other day (and crying) because since Ethan's been born (now 9 months old) we don't even sleep in the same room! I've calculated that he's been alive for about 270 sleeps and he only slept through about 10 of those nights! Wow! So totally different from my dd when she was a baby, she was an angel/textbook but now she is definitely a VERY spirited 3 year old (is that possible to change like that- or is it the 2's and 3's?) Anyways, just for the past week, I've been noticing that ds has a mantra cry...I thought that he never had one because when he woke up he went straight into his "5-alarm fire" cry (as I call it). Well, I think that I will be visiting this thread when my eyes aren't so sore. Take care ladies :o
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Good Luck Julie - let us know how you are doing!
Welcome Sarah! Big Hugs!!! Been there. When you are less bleery eyed (is that even a word?), let us know about you and Ethan. I'm sure we totally relate :)
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ps - does anyone think it's actually possible to dress/undress/diaper change a super spirited baby without them trying to sit up 10 times, roll over and reach for something 4 miles away, grab the diaper and wing it around, or pull their socks off the second you get them on (and ps, they were on backwards as the babe was rolling over mid sock!)? Just wondering if they could actually lay still for 1 minute? LOL...not Brooke!!!!!!! I'm sweating by the time she's dressed.
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ps - does anyone think it's actually possible to dress/undress/diaper change a super spirited baby without them trying to sit up 10 times, roll over and reach for something 4 miles away, grab the diaper and wing it around, or pull their socks off the second you get them on (and ps, they were on backwards as the babe was rolling over mid sock!)? Just wondering if they could actually lay still for 1 minute? LOL...not Brooke!!!!!!! I'm sweating by the time she's dressed.
Go through this upteem times a day and usually have to change all of K's clothes about 3 times a day, including vest. No lying still no matter what I give him so now when I pull off his pants I gently through them over his eyes and play peek a boo, gives me 30 seconds. A few weeks ago I was actually putting my knee- gently- on his belly to stop him rolling. What I do now is change as much as I can which is almost everything except the nappy sitting up. I make ds do the bed time changing and dressing cos I have had enough by then
Crap day, I let ds get over tired cos he was doing so well. Hour nap this am 3 hours after wake up, then we went out and fed him at a restaurant, had his first taste of pizza crust ;D. Had him in bed by 2 and some kids playing outside woke him at 3.10. Was in bed by 7.20, chatted for 20 mins then woke 40 mins later, then 40 mins later again, cried 10 min, went in was on all fours, gave nurofen, then he cried his sleepy cry for 10 mins before going back to sleep at 9.30. Also gave him a pain suppositry for the last 3 nights but not tonight. Could that have had something to do with it? Oh for some consistency.
Oh and we have our first bruise on his cheek, just under his eye, bit black, rolled over on dd's toy saucepan today. He crawled off the bed yesterday morning, first time ever for me to let my baby fall off the bed ??? dh was not impressed.
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Oh Fiona! Big hugs...they are so fast and crazy that falling is bound to happen. Don't be hard on yourself and tell DH, well...I won't go there :)
Brooke wants to play with everything of Paige's so I know that some bumps are inevitable, though I hate it! Esp. since Paige (also spirited) feels the need to pull everything away from Brooke 1 second after she's gotten it. Funny to see a spirited baby hang onto a toy for dear life and laugh at her older sister who's crying for her to let go. I try not to laugh, but really really funny!
Sorry for you crappy night. Change is the only thing these babes are consistent at, no? How many hours diff are you from me (I'm in East Coast, US) and I can't remember where you are.
LOVE the idea of throwing something over her face...though I have a feeling she'll just pick it right up. But maybe will give me 30 seconds too. Right now I would die for 30 seconds of lying still!
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Oh my just saw my spelling is awful in my last post >:( I am in the Middle East, Bahrain so have no idea of time difference, can only tell you it's 10 to 11 pm here. Bed time for me again.
Also use burp cloth to put on his face for few seconds, of course he pulls it off but it does give me 10 seconds. Have a bundle of small hard books next to changing mat and of course the packet of wipes are good for 10 seconds too :-)
Ok am gone, chat to you ladies tomorrow, hope you all have a good nights sleep, me too :-)
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hi there
my spirted little one, is in a good daily routine and i think for the most part leans towards spirited/textbook - however i also think i have learnt to manage his day a lot better, he is now 10 months. the only thing that drives me nuts is that we HAVE to be out and about for most of the day, otherwise i restort to too much tv. now that he actually watches telly, it is too tempting to have 20 mins to myself if not longer....lo will only play for a little while at home and now that he only has x1 2.5 ish nap, activity time is now 4-5 hours so finding things to do outside the house without spending lots of money is a challenge. he gets bored of toys so quickly, playing in the shower, playing cardboard cubbies, playing outside, the swing, the cat, etc etc etc. i am so into it but i just run out of ideas and energy. he is nearly walking - do u think this will help? then we can go to the park? beach? etc??
also i find interactive play so much fun but it is so high energy i can only last for so long and then lo wants to touch me ie crawl, sit, squirm, lick etc etc etc so then play gets a bit silly and i have to calm him down.
more of a whinge really....
just a nice calm day at home - im dreaming arent i?? ;)
beck
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Hi Everyone,
Today I gave DS cereal at 4:30 and bottle at 6 so well see what happens tomorrow am. Sounds like all of your LO's are similar to mine with their little personalities! So much fun!
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Hi girls,
Maybe you could help me out a little bit. I've just caught up with the last two pages. I saw that some of you are having trouble with NW/EW too. I've been chatting with some ladies on that board. We are figuring it's just developmental right now, but who knows, maybe you guys will have some advice for me. DS is almost 19 weeks old. His A times seem to be everywhere. I've been getting 36 min naps. Do you think that means OT or UT? I really get these for the first nap. Which is why I'm so hesitant to let him sit there and chat in the morning. Because I feel like I need to get him what ever time he wakes and feed him so that I can put him back to bed. I was only doing 1h20m of awake time. But now I'm beginning to think that even this time might have jumped for him. Two times this week I haven't been able to get him down at all for that first nap.
He is so young and I can never seem to get him down for a catnap. There are several nights that he is up from 3:00-Bedtime. Sometimes I'm lucky and it's 3:30 or 4. I try to put him to bed early, and that rarely works either. For example: I tried to feed him about 15 min early, then he decided he was going to eat for 20 min more than last night, heh. Then he even took longer to settle than last night. So he wasn't asleep until 7:40.
Do you think there is anything I can do about this?
At this age what did your A times look like?
I think he is actually getting used to this long A time in the evening and that might be why I can't put him down earlier. Most days he's not too fussy at this time either, but sometimes he does wake an hour or so after going to bed, and will wake before the DF sometimes, and then of course the 5:40 waking, which is becoming all too regular.
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Beck - calm day??? What is that??? Not thinking I'll get one either anytime soon. I double the silly play where they crawl, climb, lick, etc on you! One nap already - phew that makes me tired just thinking about it. Walking made it so much better with my first as she entertained herself so well when we were in the yard or whatever.
Julie - I did the same...only time will tell :)
Sherrylnn - sounds OT to me. Brooke was doing that for a while (except our nap1 was 38 min). Drove me nuts. Early bed did cure it for us, so not sure what else to suggest, but, I also made sure she had the catnap and resorted to AP (car or stroller). That stretch from 3pm (or even 4pm) until 7 is way too long.
Can't remember exactly Brooke's A time...I'll look at my log tomorrow and let you know (sad that I can't remember, but I think it was more like 2hr-2hr20min at 5 mos).
The waking within an hour of going to bed and before DF usually does mean OT. If he's up at 5:40 and you get him up, then bed really shouldn't be later than 6:30. It may take a week of early bed for him to catch up from being OT. What is he doing when you try to put him down early - crying?
If he's fighting first nap he's probably not tired enough...B always fights when I go too early. HTH. :)
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once my lo went to one nap its been lots better. i transititioned him to one nap fairly quickly, but he had a massive 3 months anyway ie. went from baby to little boy almost over nite. he sleeps much better at night and whilst he wakes 5 ish i give him a bottle and back to bed for an hour or so - 1 nap fixed the early wakings too. so yes, one nap, but its a long nap thankfully. just lots of A time to fill now. :P
i also think i changed my mindset a little, which helped. i just plough through the day and used to use the pram for catnap when i was transitioning from 2 -1 nap. i also drink a lot of coffee at times! the more i do during the day the better.....bring on the walking stage i say.
to all the other mums w spirited lotsa hugs... :)
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Sherrylynn I would agree with much of what Robyn says. Definetly the evening stretch is too long, could you put him in the buggy and go walking for a catnap? Thats what I did with ds, covered his buggy with a navy blue blanket.
Early am nap could be not enough wake time. At this age Kian was on 2 hours before the first nap and 2.5 before the second. I think spirited kids seem to suddenly increase their wake up time without warning, at least ds did anyway.
Treebutt ( love your username) one nap at 10 months, wow that is early. Honestly there are days when I think ds will go the same way. Our pm nap is being pushed later and I dont want that as we will never get out of the house. Tbh I would honestly prefer one long mid day nap as long as nights are good. DD transitioned at about 13 months with almost no probs.
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Fiona - second that spirited ones increase awake time massively very quickly. I know another girl that happened to as well. It's like one day they are on 1.75/2hrs and the next week they are on almost 3 hrs. Weird. It's almost fun trying to figure that out and getting short naps and EW in between (yeah right!).
Well, we went out this a.m. during B's nap (shopping) and she actually took a decent one in the stroller (1hr15min or so). But of course we were gone too long and she fell asleep 5 min from home despite my screaming songs at the top of my lungs and poking her, etc. Get this though...stayed asleep from car in house, asleep on changing table (had to, poop - darn!), and then into grobag and tada EYES WIDE OPEN and smiling at me...that sucks. So, I put her in the crib anyway and it's been 12 min and no sleep. No fussing (yet), but she's putting her binkies behind the bumper and fetching them out all while doing that panting thing she does when she's excited. Can you say OT hyper - OOPS!!!! Maybe I'll just put her to bed at 5 since the time change and all and maybe she won't be that messed up...
ps - but, I really don't care if she doesn't sleep as she got her pic taken with the Easter Bunny and it is so perfect. Hopefully I can find a way to show it to everyone :) Should have gotten the cd I guess.
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Robyn you have to post that pic, sounds so cute. Are you guys on time change tonight/ tom?
I got 2 great naps today, 1 hour and 1 hour 50, 4 hours before bed time and is usually longer,he woke at 30 mins for a quick cry and then again at 40 for another quick cry. On days when he has had less sleep he didnt waken in the early pm. Is this a sign to reduce day time sleep ?
here we go again with a possible schedule change, only been on the same one for 3 days :) I went shopping yesterday am and got 4 new bras ;D that fit, how happy am I?
Robyn did your cot bumper arrive? How is it? Am trying to think of a way to get dh credit card and buy it without him knowing what I am buying until it's here. I can just hear him, another useless thing in this house :o
Treebut, was thinking today, how did you manage/decide to go to one nap so early?
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treebutt - i used this in desperation and sleep deprivation to log on to this site....i didnt realise that i would be participating with that name!! oops! its a sillly play on my surname, not the size of my....which mite i say after chasing my lo for 10 months is very very small!! pls call me beck.
fiona, re the naps - as usual its like rocket science. but we transitioned 3 - 2 by dropping his cat nap on his own....and then just slowing moving his 2 naps around. and then all of a sudden i was stuck with a small window of opportunity for a catnap in the afternoon - ie. i wouldn't let him sleep much past 4ish. bedtime is 630/ 7pm. i have been really strict w this and find it works. also i found waking him early from his morning nap disasterous - so could never get 2 equal naps. so i let him nap as long as he liked for nap 1 and then at 330 i would get him to sleep in the pram for 30 - 45 mins. and then suddenly, literally one day, this stopped working and i thought the whole neighbourhood would report me - he would scream and grizzle until i sat him up and then i went right, its one nap from now on! i guess a leap of faith that i knew my baby by now? also i noticed that when he didnt have a sleep in the arvo, and even tho OT he would sleep longer at night so that was motivation. i dont DO 430am very well.
it took a week or 2 to get him around enough into the middle of the day and a few early nights to help. actually the hardest thing, and still is sometimes, is trying to get him to have some decent lunch as by 11am, he would be approaching OT. so sometimes it was a big bottle and then lunch when he got up (too close to dinner then...) - but now its lunch first and bottle and nap. and luckily he naps for up to 2.25 hours ish. he used to be a 45 min cat napper. hope for you all!
there were days i thought am i mad? am i missign all the cues?? but like i said a leap of faith....i still have the odd morning where he goes into melt down and is v OT, has no lunch and will wake after 45 mins (but i can get him back to sleep at this stage). i guess i also realised i had no choice - he wouldnt catnap in the arvo and his morning nap wouldnt get him thru the whole day so i had to manage him. like all us mums with spirited lo.
i do take care with him tho - try and spend time with him when he gets OT , read , lie on the floor and sing etc. try and keep him calm b4 nap.
sorry its a detailed response but thats how i, well, how lo, did it!!
630 - 7am up
730 - 8am brekkie
OUT OF THE HOUSE
10.45 - 1130 - lunch of some sort
1130 - 12 - nap
2.30 snack
OUT OF THE HOUSE
5pm - dinner
6pm - bath and bottle
630 - bed
bottle at 430/ 5am and back to sleep....now....no bottle b4 this if he wakes.
beck ;o)
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Thanks everybody so much for your responses. It has been a crazy weekend. Yesterday was my birthday, and still having issues with Lyle's naps.
Beck - I totally hear you about the sleep deprivation messing up your nap. I found this site also in desperation. My name should say Sherry Lynn. But I had trouble registering for this site and then finally I put that in (not realizing I missed the y) and that's what my tag is now. OOps.
In my help post I should have mentioned that Lyle will not go to sleep ANYWHERE but his crib. It is so frustrating. He will not go to sleep in the stroller/swing/being held. Yesterday after a nice long nap he had a meltdown for the rest of the day. Saturday's naps were also very similar. All an earlier bedtime seemed to get me was an earlier wake up time. Then ended up taking the catnap even earlier in the day and we're in the same boat. The sleepy cues are driving me crazy. I'll post today;s schedule to let you guys take a look and offer suggestions. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to write what was happenening and going through my mind at the time. Because this weekend I tried increasing the awake time and it ended in disaster. One of the reasons is many mornings I'm not positive if he's gone back to sleep after I hear him cough or what not, so I"m not positive about when to put him down. But like this morning I was confident that I knew and it still didn't end well.
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Last night I was able to get Lyle to sleep in the car for a catnap. He had been up since 2:45 when I came home he was screaming at the top of his lungs. So I told DH let's try the car. And it worked almost immediately. So he slept until 6. Now, when he does take a catnap I've learned that I can't turn around and put him to bed to early. Like the examples in the BW books. So I put him down a little before 8. And he slept in this morning. No 5:20 chatter, 5:40 Crying. He coughed a few times in the 6:00 hour but he didn't wake until a little before 7:30. So I thought, great, he won't be tired this morning, we'll start on the right foot. Which hasn't happened in awhile.
E 7:35 Was already rubbing his eyes a little after 8 (while still eating) but I let him play a little bit (practice rolling)
A
S 9:32 He started crying all of a sudden when I was walking around with him so I decided oh no, I better put him down. This was at 8:45. Only 1h10m of awake time :( This was probably still too early? He fought a lot. and didn't fall asleep until 9:32. I had to stay the whole time. His eyes kept popping open and jolting. I left at the 45 min mark and he woke at 1h10m. He woke in a weird mood. And was very hard to read. He usally wakes up happy.
A 10:42
E 11:05
A
S 12:33 Again I guess I tried to put him down to early. And decided today to stop swaddling him. He was very unhappy about the swaddle, and somebody suggested that this might be a problem. He calmed down right after I took him out. But even after being cranky and 2 hours of awake time, by the time he fell asleep he woke at the 45 min mark. This time he was cranky the whole A time.
A 1:15
E 1:50 Rubbed his eyes again while eating. About 2:20. And cranky. So I put him down as soon as he was done eating. Only cried for a little while. Yawned at 2:30 then two more yawns right in a row at 2:39. Then stared off into space for a long while.
S 2:45-3:35 (woke 50 min later)
A 3:35 went for a walk in the stroller.
E 5:00 - went for a car ride when done at 5:30 (on 2 hours of A time at this point, and he would not fall asleep in the car - it's like he will only fall asleep in the car if he is really tired. I think he's really getting use to these long afternoons)
A 6: rolling around on the carpet
E 6:38 Top off, then to bed. Only cried a little bit. Asleep within 10 min of putting down. (thankfully no meltdown tonight) Very likely that he will wake at 10:10 for DF and then at 5:20am and babble to himself for awhile, then cry at 5:40. Then I will do my best to get him back to sleep.
Sorry if I was annoying. I just really need help. Do you guys think I should have just kept him up for say 1h40m this morning and then hopefully it would take him about 20m to go down. So then he would have 2h of awake time? This is what I can't seem to get right.
I've been getting so many short naps 30-36m that I'm afraid of him being overtired. But then he's UT.
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Lyle is 19 weeks old, tomorrow. How much awake time could your LO handle for the first nap time? And then for the second? And between the second and catnap? I know that the times usually vary because the first awake time is shorter. This seems to be true for Lyle also. Maybe having a good ballpark will help. It seems that I'm always off by about a week. We haven't been able to get on a good EASY yet. I've been working hard on this since the new year.
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At 9.5 months, I'm still trying to figure out my DD's ideal awake times. But we're making progress. The key was to really extend her A time, past 3 hrs., where before I was afraid to pass 2 1/2. Looking back, I think I should have been more courageous with extended her A time much earlier. I was so afraid of her being OT that I set us up for so many nap struggles.
Anyway, I've found that if she's hard to settle, she needs to stay up longer. Sometimes I pick her up and read a couple more stories. And, I'm learning that as she gets older, I have to ignore some sleepy signs and wait for others. So, maybe yawns and eye-rubbing aren't the final signal. Maybe you need to wait until he starts to verbally complain or his activity level changes (really slows down or gets irratic).
Good luck. Hope you figure it out before 9.5 months.
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Ok at this age ds was on 2 hours awake time in the am with either a 45 min or 1 hour nap, then 2.5 hours awake time with a 2 hour or 2.15 nap, then about 2 hours or 2.15 awake time before the catnap which he did for 30 mins, was up by 6 pm and in bed by 8 so again a 2 hour wake time.
If your ds is spirited I think one of the main things is figuring out their wake time and sleep times. Ds was textbook spirited until 6 months of age so it was ok, then the spirited side came out and so did the sleeping issues. We now usually have a 3 hour awake time in the morning and get an hour nap. This morning I got a 20 min nap! Prob too much night sleep cos he slept a full 11 hours without his usual am chat! Dont know which is worse tbh.
Anyway good luck,hope you get some help on the sleep boards too
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Thanks guys for your responses. Here's another question for you guys. I've been reading on the boards that the sleepy cues change as LO get older. Any ideas what I should be looking for?
I went with the decreased activity this morning (along with a longer A time) and he still took 30 min to get down. He only fussed for a little while. When I calmed him I left. Then he babbled for a little while and then about 15 min later started crying. Then I helped him, and when he seemed settled again I stopped patting. Then he just tossed and turned for a while and I just laid my hand on him. He feel asleep on the 2 hour mark exactly. So we'll see how long he sleeps for. I was going for 1h45m awake time. Because that was only 10m more than what I was currently aiming for (before I went back to reading his cues). So far neither is really working right now.
At this age did the yawns all of a sudden not mean much. I use to know that if I got him in the crib before the first yawn, I was good to go. Now it seems that maybe I need to wait for a yawn (or some other cue) and then give it about 20-30 minutes for him to be asleep?
How long does it take your LO to settle in the crib before they go to sleep. I've read that too little time means OT and too long of a time means UT. Unless they are screaming of course.
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I say try 2 hours A time and see what happens, because, yes, the yawn did start to have less and less value, in terms of sleep cues.
In my experience, DD falls asleep within 2-5 minutes before good naps. If it ever takes ten minutes or more, I get 45 minutes, almost guaranteed.
Also, if she A time was not stimulating enough, it's hard for her to sleep. Granted, it needs to be the right kind of stimulation (playing on the floor with quiet toys vs. bells and whistles, which we don't do much of anyway). Taking her outside is usually a good idea (but we're in Southern California, so the weather allows for that). Isabel&Jasmine'sMum (resident sleep expert) recommended both to 1.) take her out and stimulate her, and 2.) extend A times when we were struggling at your LO's age. I didn't heed her advice. After a day or two, I just thought that she couldn't do the A time. But hindsight and 20/20, right? Or is it that time sweetens memory?
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my lo ones sleep cues are easier to read and also less crazy. i also do lots of stuff with my lo. we go out to the shops just to walk around, and only a small pocket of time to fill with feed and then nap. and i do lots of outside stuff to keep him going. i find OT rarely affects lo adversely....i have pushed him to far occasionally but then i think thats more bad luck than anything - and remembering they are people not robots so cant be programed everyday!
now lo gets cranky and grissley and very clingy...cant distract him away from me with anything not even the telly! and he also is a massive eye rubber - its like he cant stop...even with a fist full of food. and then its like your going to bed...i soothe with bottle and then put in cot. he doesnt fall asleep on the bottle just gets relaxed and quiet. this is easy when bottle matches nap time tho!
i found 3 - 6 months hell with naps, but like i said at 8 months it quickly went from 3 - 1 like i wrote in another post....it really does send u crazy. if u can go with the flow a little and if you can maybe practice with the pram?? or not an option?? it took me awhile to get my lo to sleep in it - i used to give him his snuggle rug to let him know he can sleep if he wants. and he slept beter in the pram if he wasnt over tired. if he was OT then the car i used in desperation.
but stretching A time certainly worked for me....now its filling A time!! also i think i remember thinking this is a transistion time esp when 2-1 got hard to manage and therefore impossible to get perfect - it has to get better.... and it will. in the mean time lotsa hugs....NAP MONSTER WILL GO AWAY PROMISE ;D
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Beck and Hannahbanana,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I just can't figure this out. Maybe tomorrow will be better. I'm going to try 1h40m first thing in the morning tomorrow. If the night goes well. Today was the absolute worst nap day we have had in awhile. I feel like by the time I figure this A time period out that it will change again. I've only had about 3 good days in a row the entire time I've been on EASY! So frustrating.
How do you do a quote box?
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pbmom,
I was reading over all the great advice you guys have been giving me, and I just was wondering if I respond to yours if you could help me a little.
I don't know how to do a quote box though - so I'm going to color your words blue.
Sherrylnn - sounds OT to me. Brooke was doing that for a while (except our nap1 was 38 min). Drove me nuts. Early bed did cure it for us, so not sure what else to suggest, but, I also made sure she had the catnap and resorted to AP (car or stroller).
If 36 min means OT then how do I go about increasing his awake time? Today was another perfect example. He had a great nights sleep. 1h20m (and then in the crib) is what I was having success with about 2 weeks ago now, and everybody keeps saying that the A time needs to increase for his age (which I totally agree with) So I did 1h30 today. He seemed to go down already. Like he usually does, especially lately. And then he fussed so I cam and helped him and he was down within 20 min. This is pretty normal for him. Then he woke at exactly 35min later. With no hope of putting him down. So what do I do? Do I go for 1h40 tomorrow, 1h20 or 1h30 again?
That stretch from 3pm (or even 4pm) until 7 is way too long.
I know, but I don't know what to do. I tried the car yesterday. Had luck with it the day before that - When he was WAY OT, and that didn't even work yesterday. It was the same pattern at bedtime. 10m chatting, then fuss, about ten more min to get down. This is our new pattern.
Can't remember exactly Brooke's A time...I'll look at my log tomorrow and let you know (sad that I can't remember, but I think it was more like 2hr-2hr20min at 5 mos).
When you get a chance I'd love to hear from everybody their awake times. Also how long before the desired sleep time did everybody put them into bed? He will not get sleepy in my arms. So most of the settling gets done in the crib. It's always been this way.
The waking within an hour of going to bed and before DF usually does mean OT.
Thanks, I didn't know that that is why.
If he's up at 5:40 and you get him up, then bed really shouldn't be later than 6:30. Thankfully this has only happened once.
It may take a week of early bed for him to catch up from being OT. He started going to bed so early that our new awake time just became 6:30 and then we had the same problem with the catnap, starting earlier in the evening. It started being that he would be up from 2:45 or 3:15, instead of 3:30/4:00. See my biggest problem is getting in two good naps. I can get him down for 3 naps, it's just that the third nap is over way too early most days because the naps are so crummy, and then I can't get him down for a 4th on most days.
What is he doing when you try to put him down early - crying? On a really crummy day. I think the 5:30 day I tried doing the last feed at 5:45 so that he was in bed at 6:15 and he cried hysterically for an hour :( This has happened about 3 times in the last two weeks. I think it's mostly due to OT though. Maybe he would have done it no matter when I put him down?
If he's fighting first nap he's probably not tired enough...B always fights when I go too early.
Yet, I keep getting a 35/36 min nap when I try to increase A time?
Thanks so much for your help.
Any tidbits of advice from anybody is helpful.
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was thinking you mite get more direct support re naps on the nap board?? or u mite be there 2!!
not that ur not welcome here !! just they mite have some more specific advice since they are the nap gurus. i found them VERY helpful....esp when i realised that EW can be linked to too much naps....
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Here's an idea: if the first two naps are crap, just stretch him before the third one in order to steal some time away from before bed, when he is most likely to have a meltdown.
And, as I recall, we went through a period where all I got was 35 minute naps, despite everything I did. And then it went away. It could be a phase.
Also, our A time was really short at 5 months, less than 2 hrs. certainly. You're not the only one.
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On the nap board they suggested I came here :)
I am on there too. Thanks for your help. :)
I'm hoping this is a phase. I'm just worried it's not, because like I said I've only had 3 "good days" in a row the entire time I've been on EASY. I just can't seem to figure it all out. Thanks again for your help. :)
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Hi. I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm Shanna and my little one is Rose who is a little over 3 months old (technically though she's about 21/2 months as she was premature). We're new to BW and have just started posting in the, you guessed it, nap section. As best as I can tell she is a spirited one although I suspect she may also be touchy. Anyone else have this combo?
Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone can relate (either currently or in the past) to my LO's traits) and if there is any advice on how you survive it all! Here's a snapshot:
Sleeping: Rose sleeps in what I call the bat cave. It's darkened (but not yet dark enough as spring approaches) with a staticky (is that a word?) radio running whenever she sleeps. Her nursery is attached to our bedroom and the radio drives me crazy b/c I can hear the interference from other radio stations underneath the white noise. My husband and my dog snore happily through this while I stuff earplugs in my ears and take about an hour to fall asleep. Does anyone else worry that we're making it impossible for our LOs to sleep anywhere than the batcave since they're getting use to napping under these conditions? Rose does not nap well. We're dealing with those cursed 45 minute naps. Can't extend them to save my life. When she's done, she's done. I'll go in an try to shh/pat but Rose just tosses her head from side to side (I think her head is on a swivel) and then stares at me before busting out with a big grin as if to say, "Mommy, you're so silly. That will NEVER work on me." Other times she stares at the light above her crib, whether it's on or off, and smiles and babbles at it. At night, Rose takes a loooonnnggg time to get down--sometimes hours -- screaming (I'm talking blood curdling) and fussing. Once down, she usually gets up ever 3 hours to eat.
Swaddling: my nemisis. Rose hates the swaddle but needs it. She doesn't have control of her hands and she desperately wants to suck on them. We engage in battle about 30 times a day/night swaddling her. Every time I come into her room, she has at least one arm out. She waves it around in the air with a balled fist as if to say, "Victory is mine!" Then she proceeds to bop herself in the face with her own hand, which prompts a frustrated scream. I can't wait till I don't have to swaddle her anymore.
Feeding: I feel so guilty for admitting it, but I hate breastfeeding. Rose engages my breasts in battle at every feed. She throws punches, kicks, throws her head back with breast attached, and screams. I don't know if this is her spirited nature or something else at work.
Activity: Because of our nap issues, Rose doesn't do too much, which worries me. I try my best to get her to do tummy time but she hates it. Do spirited lo's get too frustrated for it ya think? I think her favorite thing is to either take a Bath (during which she kicks and splashes nonstop) or to just lie there with her legs kicking, her arms swinging, and her head swiveling and sometimes staring at my or my husband as we say words like bubble, mooo, and lalalala, which she thinks are funny.
Well, that's us in a nutshell! I'll check back in later!
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sherylynn - it will be a phase coz ur the mummy and will work it out. at times i felt am i just really not good at this?? but then spirited kids by the looks change so quickly and are difficult to read so dont be too hard on your self. it will all come clear soon...the fact u are trying so hard is a credited to your dedication to being a good mummy.
shanna - re the swaddling, my lo liked to be swaddled but to transition him we put him into a sleeping bag and gave him a snuggle rug. a small piece of fabric with a teddy sewn in to it - there are lots of variations on these things. it gave little one something to do with his hands and to suck on while falling asleep - i have had huge success with this as he uses it still know and in the pram or car (on the odd occasion) to signal sleep.
my lo has never been a good napper and only sleeps well in his cot in his cave - very dark not much light at all even at nap times. my life revolves around his naps - however, i feel its worth it. a well rested lo is all i work towards!
re the radio can u slowly turn it down a little each week?? and then maye over a month or two you will have lo used to sleeping with out it? or what about some other music thats more soothing for u as well to sleep with? a classical cd "music for dreaming" here in australia is very popular - im sure there will be somthing similar where u are.
i dont think she should be doing much more than she is - my lo has been frustrated since about 3 months - all the gadgets and toys that other mums think are a life saver my lo has never liked! i think its great that lo is laughing at you both - how wonderful and she already has that beuatiful trait that is the trade off with spirited babies - my lo drives me nuts, too tears and too drink but gosh, he makes me laugh so much.
like i said in another post - 3 - 6 months were incredible frustrting but my lo is crawling and nearly walking and whilst i still have to heaps of 1 on 1 to entertain him and change the scenery almost every hour or so it is better as he can initiate some of his own play now.
for your nap and bedtime crying isues maybe try the EASY thread for some routine advice? and the NAP thread - its nice to know your not the only one....my lo was a 45 min napper.....once they are more tired and can stay up longer it helped with me.
beck
hope this helps!!
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Shanna, you're too funny. Yes, I know the fist of victory very well. We stopped swaddling at 4.5 months and she promptly started sucking her fingers (something I'd been fighting her on since birth). Hopefully, like Tracy's daughter, she'll stop when she's two. It does help her settle for sleep. She also has her stuffed bunny.
Hannah sleeps in a cave, too. That said, if very, very tired, she can also sleep in the stroller or carseat. And we traveled with her when she was 7 months, and she slept well in a little portable bassinet thing that was low to the ground, given the room was darkened. I quit using white noise, however, since I didn't want her to become dependant on it. I didn't phase it out, either. She didn't seem to notice. I think they're more flexible than we often give them credit for. Like I'm always tippy toeing around the kitchen, which is right next to her room (you can hear a drawer open on the gliders from her room), but then I'll drop a dish which washing up or bang the stove on accident and she doesn't make a peep....
Hannah hated tummy time when she was younger. She was small and not strong enough to hold herself up, so she got frustrated. She loves it now. Don't worry. When she's ready, she won't mind it. Just keep trying it every now and again.
Which the breastfeeding issue, do post on the Breastfeeding board. They are soooo helpful. I've had my share of problems, from clogged ducts galore to frequent issues with low supply to yeast infection of the nipples! They've helped lots.
Naps...I don't have any advice on how to rectify the situation, because we are still dealing with short naps. The trick is to learn your LO's sleepy cues and extend her awake time as much as she can stand before becoming OT. Some people can go by the clock, but my LO is not so consistent. Things didn't start looking up for us until about 6 months, that's when longer naps started showing up unexpectedly. So, there may not be much you can do about it now. Or maybe Tracy could solve your problem, but you're not her, you're you and you need to be happy with where you are. (Advice I try to give myself daily.) Try to enjoy the early months. They're really difficult, but, looking back, I wish I wasn't so focused on a perfect routine and found more joy in the beauty of the moment.
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Hi Becks and HannahBanana. Thanks for your advice and thoughts. Last night was a doozy...thought my hubby was gonna lose it. The 45 minute "naps" creeped into our nighttime routine somehow --pesky creatures :(. I like the idea of the snuggle toy but Rose doesn't have enough control yet and I suspect when she does she be all about the hands whether I like it or not. I think once that control happens we'll be moving on from the swaddle and paci and then we'll work on the white noise. I think she's part touchy in that regard since she startles quite easily so we may have our work cut out for us. My hubby and I were just discussing how we swore we'd never tiptoe around our child --ha--we were sooo naive. Who would have thought that two extremely sensitive, light sleepers would have a child with such issues right ;)! I guess for what I'm reading, we've got to wait it out. Booo. But, then again, maybe I'll get a gummy smile or a babbling sentence today and it will make it all worthwhile!
Anyway, I'll check out the other boards for some tips too when I get a chance. I hear the soothing cry of my Rose now so I better see to it -- can't have two days in a row of bad naps! Take care ladies.
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WHOA! Hi girls...it's been a bit since I've been here. Sorry about that - esp. to Sherry Lynn as you asked me for help. I feel terrible. My sister was in town and we were having loads of fun, but I was sidetracked from you all. Boy is that a lot of pressure to answer your Q's (just kiddin'). I am SOOO no expert, but I can say that I've been there with 2 spirited ones now. Though Brooke is FAR more spirited than Paige ever was. She is spirited/angel (I think someone asked). Paige was angel/spirited - big difference :) Hope I can help. Here are my thoughts.
Sherry - I always mess up the quote thingy too, so here are my trying to be helpful responses:
(1) I said he was OT as most los with shorter than 40 min naps are OT or OS. But, I do have to say that Brooke would often do a 38 min nap and I was being told OT, but then I watched her nap (and then bought a video monitor so I didn't have to hide in her room for my only Y time of the day). I realized that she started to come out of deep sleep around 35 min and would wake at 38 min if she couldn't get herself past that "jolt" in sleep cycle. She was not tired enough to make it past that mark. If she was OT, then she would sleep for 20 min, 30 min or a couple times only 18 min (that's not even a NAP! haha). It drove me nuts though as I was so worried about OT that I was decreasing A time or making sure it was low key, when in fact she probably could have handled more. When I did increase A time I went to quickly and got great results for a couple days but then 30 min naps, so I had made her OT. It was like I couldn't win! The early bed thing did cure it for us, but really the A time had a lot to do with it too. I would increase A time in very short increments and if you get shorter naps do whatever you have to to get him to sleep for a bit in the afternoon. How much daytime sleep total is he getting? And how much at night again? Sorry, I can't remember and I want to make sure I answer your Q's before P wakes up...and then B.
How does he go to sleep? Independently? Or are you there with him helping him along? When he wakes and he fusses, do you always go right away? What if you leave him for a bit? He's not doing the I need you cry, right? When I would go to Brooke, she would literally laugh at me and I would want to pull my hair out. I mean, how could I be upset when this cute little thing is grinning and laughing at my from the crib.
(2) For the long stretch in the eve, I know you've done it before and had your day shift like I did, but you have to continue it if you want to keep him rested. You don't want to create NW or EW b/se of day sleep issues. So, I would say still do early bed until the A time increases enough where you can push it. You really need to make sure that night sleep is good if day sleep is all over the place. For the chatting/fussing before bed...what do you do to help him go to sleep? Do you leave before he's asleep?
(3) Brooke's A time - I was playing with A times at 19weeks, but it was usually b/w 2hrs and 2hrs20 min. Most days with good naps appear to be 2hr10min A time. When I say 2hr10 min A time, I mean from the minute she woke until the minute we went to her room. At that stage of the game, winddown was about 10 min total (incl. diaper change and grobag), music, stand by crib, then into crib and shh/pat until calm. At first I had to shh/pat until asleep (for a few days) as I had just embarked on pu/pd at 5 mos old to get rid of paci/swaddle. So I was all over the place for a few weeks getting the routine settled. Then I decided I'd had enough of shh/pat and slowly removed the pat first, then the shh, then I just stood there, then I left the room straight away. She'd sometimes fuss/mantra. She's mostly asleep within a few minutes. If it were more than 10-15 min at that point I knew it was trouble (i.e. short nap). Upon waking I always leave her be for a bit and it's paid off. She wakes in the a.m. and after nap and plays and it gives her some extra down time and me a chance to get some things done. Also now gives her a safe place to practice her acrobatics :)
FWIW, all of the settling for Brooke was always in the crib from 5 mos on. Before that, my winddown was far too involved and it worked against me. And now, she'll practically jump into the crib and reach for it when she's tired. It's annoying in that she won't cuddle for more than 30 seconds (and it's forced LOL) but if she wants her crib, then so be it. She would get sleepy in my arms, but would never actually fall asleep there (well maybe would if I could stand the pushing off me and head butting, but it's so clear she wants down that I put her down).
I never worried about what time I wanted her to be asleep by...I just went by a particular A time after she woke while paying attention to signs. But, if I went with the "fake-out signs" that she would give earlier, then I'd always get a short nap. She was never great at giving me a sign anyway - by the big yawn it was too late...or she was just faking me out as she was bored/needed a scene change. At some point I figured that I was getting crappy naps regardless of A time, so I just kept A time constant and it seemed to settle as she got used to it. I used the bjorn/car to get a catnap/rest time at the end of the day to keep that last A time a reasonable amnt.
As for the fighting nap, yet getting short nap all I have to say is I have SOOO been there. Not sure what to say but I just kept experimenting. The fighting definitely signaled not tired enough for Brooke. It's like they are tired, but not tired enough to sleep longer than one cycle. Sounds like his "cycle" might be 36min. Brooke's was 38min and I was a wimp about increasing A time as I was afraid she'd be OT, but I really did us a disservice (sophia - is that a word?) as we would get a short nap. For most los you'll hear that anything short of 45 is b/se of OT. But, as Sophia and I were saying recently to each other, ours were just at the end of their sleep cylce (which is diff. for every lo) and it really actually meant that they were UT. Does that make sense? Have you watched a nap to see what happens when he's coming out of sleep? Is he crying upon waking at 36min? Or is he most of the time happy? How's his mood when you take him out of the crib? Once I realized that it really was UT, I would literally add A time by walking around with Brooke in my arms. Of course since she's spirited, I couldn't just hold her normal...she had to be face out with my forearm under her armpits and her butt on my hip and dangling there (kicking her legs of course)...definitely not good for one's side/back, but it works wonders here. Still do it now too...it's A time at 3ish hrs and 10 min before it's up I scoop her up and walk around and she becomes relaxed and then off to bed.
TBH it all went crazy when she was dropping the catnap at 6 mos too, so it's always changing. Naps were good, but inconsistent at 5 mos. Since dropping the catnap, she's pretty consistent and 99% of naps are good. I guess I'm saying that sometimes it might just be a timing thing and you need to go with the flow and wait it out a bit. Sometimes I wonder if anything would have changed for me if I increased A time earlier or if she just happen to become a better day sleep with development/age. I had such a hard time going with the flow for the longest time. Plus, I was afraid to let her fuss/mantra for even a few minutes. Once I learned that I was making the situation worse, I backed off and it got a lot better.
That's the longest post ever and I sure HTH!!
Welcome Shanna and Rose! Sounds like the rest of our los at that age. BW is wonderful and you'll find great support and advice here. Rose is still so young. I really wouldn't worry about the white noise. It's proven in sleep studies to help babies and adults get better sleep and if she startles (Brooke used to all the time - she was such a light sleeper) you should keep it. In time you'll be worried more about the swaddle/paci. Does she go down independently? Or are you using shh/pat? Just wondering. At that age, I would work on trying to extend naps or fitting more naps in the day to get a good amnt of day sleep as it really does affect your night. Let us know how you are doing.
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Sophia - well said "Try to enjoy the early months. They're really difficult, but, looking back, I wish I wasn't so focused on a perfect routine and found more joy in the beauty of the moment." I spent far too much time with Paige and Brooke worrying about it all and it passes to quickly. Trust me!! How are you doing? Pm me if you have a min to let me know :)
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i think lo must have heard me letting you all know how good it was at the minute! lo has been up at 5am, which is normal but the last 2 mornings he wont go back to sleep - cant believe it!! so little naps and now EW.
bah! its a long day with only 1 nap. dont think i can go back to managing 2....oh well! will try and keep my cool. i dont handle it very well esp when i have worked so hard to get it to where it was. i left lo to cry in his cot this morning coz i was so cross and tired....now feel bad ;o(
beck ;o)
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Pbmom,
Thanks so much. Your post has helped me tremendously, if not just to feel a little better. Today was probably the worst day we have had on easy so far. I got 1 30 min nap, and that was in the car. Even in the car he jolted awake at the 30 min mark.Well at his 5 o'clock feed he feel asleep at the boob, for 20 min, and I just let him lie there. I knew he wouldn't stay asleep for long. This is only the 3rd time in 4 1/2 months that I've allowed him to fall asleep. Then he woke up. 2 saving graces: 1. He was not screaming all day. Just extremely tired. 2. He did not have a complete meltdown at bedtime. In a couple of days I will answer all the wonderful questions you have asked me in order to help me. I'm just so exhausted right now. It has been a really hard few days. I'm thinking something is going on. Either developmentally, or teething. He is also constipated. So, hopefully we can get that all sorted out.
When you learn so much about their sleep - it's hard not to be so obsessed about it, because you learn how interconnected everything is. Also, they are just so much happier when they get good sleep. Not that Lyle spends a lot of time being unhappy. He doesn't. He's a really happy baby, but he just glows when he's well rested. (I think that part of the delightful side of the spirited child)
I think you are write about the UT at 36 min. I have sat their with Lyle, during many naps when we first started BW and this is when he stirred out of this deep sleep.
You read my mind about the rushing in. I had this exact thought today, after I worked for an hour to try to get him down for the first nap. I think one of my mistakes was rushing in there. I'm pretty sure I made it worse. I guess I just haven't learned his mantra cry. It just always seems to escalate. And they say a mantra cry doesn't escalate. He starts out rhythmic and then it goes up from there. So I think I'm going to try to wait 3-5 min to try to figure out if it is a mantra cry. I saw somebody suggest that to somebody else on here, and sure enough in that case it turned out to be more mantra, so we'll see with Lyle.
Again thanks so....soooo.sooo much for taking so much of your Y time to answer my questions. I know there's never enough of Y time. So I really appreciate you doing that. I know it will serve me a lot of good over the next few days (if I can find the time to get on). I will be reading it a few times to soak up the info.
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No prob...I did ramble a bit, sorry for that.
FWIW, I didn't think Brooke had a mantra as I always rushed in. I really thought her mantra was quite loud (I've heard this about other spirited ones). Since I was the queen of rushing in, she never had to cry, so when I didn't rush in, it seemed really loud but after she got used to what she was supposed to be doing, it was more of a moan. I also think that most of the time it was a protest as she wasn't tired enough.
Good Luck...get as much sleep as you can over the next few days. It will get better...I promise :):)
Beck - totally been there. Don't feel bad...you are a great mom and being here talking about feeling bad proves it. Sometimes it's better to just leave them be when you are upset/can't deal. Here's hoping you and your lo have a great night sleep!
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Well first nap was >40 again. It all seemed like it was going well when I put him down. Second nap isn't starting out so great. I think he's overtired for sure now. I guess I fed him too late. But I really am trying to get him to closer to a 4 hour easy and I can't do that if I keep moving the feedings up because of these darn naps. When your LO took really small naps were you able to put him down for 2 naps in one feeding cycle. I can't ever seem to do that.
Hananahbanana,
How did it get better. Did it get better on it's own, or after stretching your awake times a bit? Or just when you got to 6 months? Do you remember what your A times were like. He has always been on the lower side of A times, but he seems to be REALLY low right now.
I don't think I can handle another month of naps like I've had this week. It would be different if he took one crap nap and then made up for it. He's not doing that. And then of course we had NW last night because of the horrible day. But it still wasn't too bad.
Could you guys tell me some of your sleep cues. I remember when he was younger somebody mentioned the right arm flailing. And that really helped. Maybe I'm missing his new sleepy cues. Or maybe I'm not even giving him a chance to show them because I'm putting him into bed too soon.
Thanks again everybody for your help. I'm trying to stay cheery, but it's not working...
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hi sherlyn
i remember how hard it was when i had a 45 min napper and totally get the brain drain of trying to work it out - more feeds or stretch A time etc etc.
my lo just got better but i did do a bit of reshuffling like you and generally obsessing. my lo sleep cues were hard becuase he would just loose it - but know its a bit less manic and easier to calm him. i also did the stay in there at the 30 minute mark and try to catch him when he jolted awake - this worked sometimes and other times it didnt. i found it hard to stay put and shh/ pat calmly for more than 10 minutes but i think trying for up to 20 mins is ok?? A BW expert may help u on this!
i know it mite be hard to stretch feed times but it mite help with the naps too - the bigger the feed the more he mite sleep? have u tried this? or does your lo cry so much you cant hold out?
try and just stay sane, cheery mite be pushing it!
beck ;o)
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Hey Beck,
The problem with stretching my little one is if he gets too tired, he won't go down. :(
I tried to put him to bed early last night, due to really poor napping yesterday... and he had a complete meltdown. Didn't get him down until 8:45. He still woke at the normal time, but he feel asleep at the boob, I was pumping at the same time, so I didn't catch him in time, oops. I tried to wake him (while still pumping, heh, needless to say it didn't work. However, good news (we'll take it where every we can right?) He slept for about 30 min, then I tried to move him, figuring he would probably wake anyways, and he did. Anyways, good news - I just got him down for a second nap, in the same feeding cycle. That has never, never happened. That way even if he just takes a 45 min nap, we will be a lot better off trying to get him down for the next nap. That is my victory for the day. I've never been able to do that, I'm so glad I gave it a try. I hope you guys are having a good day. It's a fresh start for me, right? Thanks again.
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Sherry Lynn - have you posted on the easy forum to have them look at your routine? Or if you want to post again here...what's been happening the last couple days, we can try to help.
So glad for your victory of getting 2 haps in once cylce! Any sleep helps!!!
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i remember my lo being so OT that i had to almost grip him firmly in my arms to get him to take a bottle!! he would cry so hard that he couldnt control himself to feed - ;o( this was when it was at its worst....i know its just so hard, it sounds like u are trying so hard too!
i also remember the small victory! i used to be so grateful for getting 2 naps right that the third was too much to bear so i would just put him in the car straight away - i figured it would be the first nap to go so could risk a bit of accidental parenting!
sorry , i know i asked this last time but have u tried shh/ pat? like i said i found it REALLY hard to do as my own anxiety issue would go thru the roof, but DH helped me and i found it really helpful, didnt fix, but improved...and i used this at night time when i stopped night feeds...so lo was used to the routine - when mummy shhhhh's no bottle!!
i had to do shh/ pat today as lo woke after 45 mins - OT i think, it took a good 15 mins but he went back...
sorry if this is stuff u have already posted!
take care
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Sherry Lynn - how are you?
Beck - good stuff. I too remember the early days of so OT that crying at everything was all I got. I cured it with naps in the Bjorn and catnaps in the early evening in the car. I also figured that the 3rd nap was going away, so who cares if it's AP or not! Great job on using shh/pat to get him back to sleep! That's excellent.
I'm telling you if I could just get Brooke to sit/lay still for diaper changes and change of clothes. It drives me insane!!! I mean really, I'm like lightning fast, so you'd think she could just chill. NOT SO MUCH!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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Hi guys,
I'm not doing so well. The last few days have been so hectic, that I haven't even been able to come on here and post. I stopped by for a few minutes last night and then DS woke up because he was OT from the day :( by the time I put him back down I got ready for bed, snoozed for 30 min and then woke up to give him his dream feed. :( Then husband came home and woke me up (he works evenings). On top of schedule issues I'm not getting much sleep. I do have to be thankful that he hasn't been waking at 5:30 to chat up a storm, and then cry to be put back to sleep. So that's good.
My routine has been so bad, I don't even know what to post. Since on the nap forum they told me to focus on the first nap, and extending that I'll share with you guys how the first nap has gone the last couple of days, and then how today went. The newest trend is DS seems to be completely rejecting at least 1 nap a day. Just completely will not go down. This is on top of his usual unwillingness to go down for the catnap.
My FIL came this weekend to meet DS for the first time (FIL has been in Iraq) and of course lyle had a complete meltdown at bedtime. This was the third day in a row. So that was horrible. Mostly because MIL was of course saying things like, I don't know why you just don't fed him to sleep, I fed both my sons to sleep and they were just fine...blah blah blah...
Okay on the Nap forum they suggested that I stick with 1h30m for the awake time first thing in the morning. Here's what's been happening:
1st day of plan 40 min nap then.......
2h20m nap ( this was on my birthday) this was a morning present for me - rest of day was a disaster though :(
1h10m (I was there to help him, up to the 45 min mark)
35
33
0 min
>40
30 was able to extend after 20 min, slept 40 more (completely refused second nap?? this day.
32m
1h26m again had to be there to help him. This time he didn't stir until the 52 min mark
0 min This was today
I heard Lyle at 6:03 but I didn't hear anything after that. Then I heard him at 6:35. He usually coughs and then starts talking. Then cries after awhile.
He was very sleepy during feeding. I had to work hard to keep him up. I guess I should mention that he went to bed at 7:30 last night. So he missed an hour of sleep. But this is not really uncommon for him. This is why I'm always so reluctant to put him to bed early. He sleeps 11 hours at night more than he sleeps 12.
E 6:55 He ate a long time today (50 min). I offered the other boob to make sure this is not a hunger thing we are dealing with. First time of doing that today.
A 7:45 After he ate he didn't perk up too much. Usually he does. So I took him straight to his room to just quietly play and do wind down. He was talking to himself and making that gurgling sound that they do.
S In crib at 8:05 He was still talking, playing like He had a big yawn at 8:07 then another one at 8:09. He alternated between fussy talking and play talking. Then he started crying at about 8:20 or so. Gave up at about 8:45
E 9:30 I had to go to the dentist so I had DH give him a bottle a little early.
A None
S 10:00 DH said he sang loudly to Lyle to try to keep him up, still fell asleep at the bottle. Took a two hour nap but with DH help. DH said he stirred at the hour mark and the hour and half. He put the pasci in his mouth and laid his hand on him. This is a new technique that he started. Will probably cause trouble down the road, but I guess we are doing what we have to at this point??
A 12:00 Gardening with dad
E 1:00 - very sleepy had to fight to keep him up
A just wind down put in crib 1h40m
S 1:52 stirred at 58 min, thought I had him back asleep, stirred 2 more times, then thought, well maybe he had enough sleep and I let him wake up so we could go on a walk. Maybe this was a mistake. He was cranky the whole walk. Usually he is okay after an hour nap. Plus the earlier he wakes from his "3rd nap" the better chance I have of getting him down for the cat nap.
A 2:57
E 4:00 very sleepy again, decided to let him fall asleep at the boob because I have such a hard time getting him down for that catnap. However, he did not get quality sleep at all, kept stirring/waking/eating.
A
E 6:12 I was going to feed him a little bit later but he got so fussy at around 6 that I decided to go ahead and feed him. For once my mommy instincts paid off. Last time I put him down on the early side of a cat nap he hollered for 20 min. No real fuss tonight. He only ate about 15 min did wind down and he was asleep within 15 min of being in bed (sometimes this is a bad sign, but he hasn't woken up so far)
Bed 6:45
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ill leave the routine stuff to the gurus, but i can say stick with the blah blah blah attitude to MIL... ;)
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Sherlyn please post again on the Easy board and hopefully someone will be able to help you. I had a look through your routine but dont know what to advise you. Are you on 3 naps and a cat nap? We were on 2 and a cat nap at this stage. 11 hours is not uncommon for night sleep but it doesnt help you really plan a 13 hour day.
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We were on 2 and a cat nap for a short while, then the naps went haywire and he has to take more. We were also on a 3 1/2 hour feeding cycle, but that went out the window with the poor naps too :(
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Fiona - hey!! Good to see you again.
Sherry Lynn - I am too bleary eyed to give your routine a good go right now. Off to bed, but I will look tomorrow and see if there's anything I can help with. I would definitely also post on EASY - they are great :) Sorry to hear you are still having a rough go.
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Dear pbmom,
Don't worry too much about going over the schedule in great lengths. It is different every single day.
How much daytime sleep total is he getting? And how much at night again?
The lowest amount in the last 10 days has been 82 min. The longest was yesterday which was 3hours and 20 min (it took 4 naps to get that). I thought that might turn us around. He didn't wake after the hour he went to bed last night. He just did tonight :( But he woke at 6 this morning, ready to go. I totally messed up his first nap. And the day went down hill from there. I'm not going to bother everybody by posting today's mess. Hopefully tomorrow will be better. The day that he only slept 80 min was a weird day. He only slpt 32 min for the first nap. He was over tired from a meltdown the night before. Then the next nap was 50 min? He's been doing that and I don't understand. Even if the first nap is bad he is taking a 50 min nap on the second one. This seems to be true most of the time whether I decrease the A time or not. However, today I didn't decrease the A time because most of the time is fine (and I wanted to wait until 3h to feed) and he only took a 30 min nap for the second nap. :(
His night sleep seems to be between 10 1/2-11 1/2 hours. Sometimes we have night wakings and early wakings.
If you don't count settling time Lyle is only at 1h30m for the first nap and 1h40 for the rest. He is so low on his awake time. I'm sure that is the problem, but boy, increasing it by even ten minutes has caused 11 days of madness.
Do you think I should increase by 5 min tomorrow or so? I tried to increase the second nap to 1,45 on one day when he took a good first nap, and then ended up being a mistake.
Today I worked really hard to put him to bed earlier, but by the time he was up from not taking his cat nap it was 5:47 and I had him back in bed within the hour, he still woke up 48 min after going to bed :( He tried to hard to take the cat nap that I left him in his crib until he fussed. I stayed the whole time with him. Only helping when he fussed.
How does he go to sleep? Independently? Or are you there with him helping him along? When he wakes and he fusses, do you always go right away? What if you leave him for a bit? He's not doing the I need you cry, right?
Before the total disaster that has become our routine he was doing really well. I could place him in his crib and he would go to sleep within about 12min. Now right when he started going to sleep within 12min I started getting 45min naps, that I couldn't extend. I've always had 45min naps, since we started EASY. In hindsight I should have started increasing A time then. But I thought he might Well after the 30min mess we had because he was so overtired. But most of the time I could extend them. So I have equated 12min with bad, I don't know if that's true or now. He seems all over the place. 12 is about the lowest. He usually takes 20-30min to settle. And it seems that I might get a long nap, or a short nap, either way. Now it has come down to I might not even get a nap.
I have been helping him more. And he's been using the paci more. He use to not really use it. But we just started using it to extend his naps :(
I always try to make sure I stop patting when he seems settled.
I do go right in to him when he fusses. I do this because in the past if I don't then there is no chance of resettling him. Do you think I should stop doing that since the naps are not good anyways?
Today I camped out in his room for the third nap and I got a two hour nap. The only real nap of the whole day.
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Please go read my post in the EASY forum. Help I'm Drowning. I really really need help. Things have only gotten worse. I would suspect because we need to go to a 4 hour EASY, but I don't know how to do that.
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Has anybody had success with PU/PD to extend naps and what not. I read awhile ago that PU/PD does not work with spirited LO. I'm thinking about trying it, but I don't want to go through all the agony if it isn't going to work.
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Sorry no Sherryln no real experience,have done pd a few times at nap and bedtime when ds is up on all fours, but never really done it properly. Should really do it for my early wakenings but have a feeling it wouldnt work with him, partly because he has never had to be sleep trained since a baby and my interference would make things worse.
Why dont you post a general question as others who dont post here may reply.
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Thanks, I think I might do that. Your lucky about the sleep training :) I'm sure you have other things to worry about though :) Such as EW :)
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i did a little pu/ pd - but only when very very upset and i knew shh/pat wasnt going to work for the minute. most of my luck come with shh/ pat and staying there for up to 15 / 20 mins for early naps wake ups ie the 45 minute mark and for as long as it takes for NW.
i found pu/ pd also difficult as lo got too heavy. :)
im sorry things have gotten worse. hopefully this is a transistion phase to 4 hour easy.
take care
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Thanks Beck, I hope so too :(
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Hello,
I'm not new to BW but haven't posted on this forum yet. It's comforting to read through other postings to know I'm not alone. My little boy is 9 months and is very spirited. We started following BW when he was around 4 months and, after a weeks of doing PUPD he went from never sleeping during the day to sleeping 3 times. I was absolutely amazed. After a couple of months we had a great routine where he started sleeping through the night and getting a good 2.5/3hrs sleep a day. Now we're lucky if he gets an hour a day. He'll usually go down for his morning nap without too much of a problem 30 -60 mins but then, apart from conking out in his buggy mid afternoon, that's usually it until bedtime. Bedtime has been 6pm for the last while but when the clocks went forward we went with them so now it's 7pm. Main reason is we're hoping he'll start waking up at 6am. Before the clocks went back and as of Jan this year, he was waking up at 5am every morning and, when the clocks went forward he started waking an hour earlier, so, still 5am. He cries when he wakes up and cries when I try to put him down again at lunchtime. I often spend an hour trying to get him to sleep but usually give up soon after because he's in such a state. This makes the rest of the day really difficult as he's a cross between crying/hysterical/grouchy/shouty and nothing's any good; he doesn't want to be picked up, he doesn't want to be left, he doesn't want to sit, he doesn't want to stand, he doesn't know what he wants because he's so damn tired and finds it impossible to relax enough to get even slightly drowsy. In fact, over the months, I've realised that manic laughing is he sign for tiredness; no yawning or droopy eyelids here! Winding down is almost impossible, I've resorted to strapping him in to his high chair, turning out all the lights and shutting the blinds to make it as dark as possible but that doesn't really work because he'll easily find something to distract him in the half light. I can't pick him up to calm him down because he instantly starts pushing away to get to that door, that wall, that bit of curtain, anything. When I put him in his cot, he won't stay still for more than a few seconds. He throws himself around winding himself up even more. I've tried everything and have had a lot of advice from this site but I can't make anything work. I keep being told he's overtired and needs more sleep. Don't I know it! BW was brilliant for the first few months but why did it stop working. Does my son need to be sleep retrained? Why are we almost back at square one? I feel like a failure in never being able to reach this magic number of hours sleep and, in a way, wished I'd never started because it was so successful to begin with but then just stopped working. I don't understand. I'm not posting this to get any more advice I just want to add my experience of doing BW with a spirited baby.
Thanks for reading.
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Clare, big huge hugs to you, I know you have been through so much in the last few months so wont even try to offer more advice. He does sound extremely spirited and extremely ot, one probably not helping the other. How are wake ups since Sunday?
Oh and you are so not a failure, you are doing everything you can and more :)
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Hi Fiona,
His wake ups since Sunday, when the clocks went forward, are just the same. I don't know if it's coincidence or just plain wierd, but at that exact time he started waking an hour earlier in the mornings, so, 4am pre clock change time. So, still on the 5am starts. This morning he managed a 50 min nap then I tried to get him down again at 1.20, no luck, 2.40, no luck until he finally fell asleep on the bottle at 3.15. He only stayed asleep for 20 mins, though. The pediatrician said he doesn't 'look' tired and offered no help. I just feel so helpless. He's so knackered and I can't do anything to help him. I just hope he grows out of it soon.
Thanks for the hugs!
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is my son considered a baby or toddler he just turned 16 months old. the reason why i am asking cause he is a spirited child and need help with him but i went to the preschooler board for spirited children and no one has posted on that forum for about 2 months so i was wondering if he was a toddler and if so do you know where the forum is for spirited children of his age range cause i cant find it. please.
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Hmm he is probably in between :). Go ahead and post, we will try to help if we can.
Clare was hoping you would at least have gotten an hour extra in the am. Do you want to try your luck here with his schedule? You never know.
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OK, here goes. I've just started following a new schedule that was recommended but it's not making much difference yet.
Wake up 5am
BF/Bottle 6am
Breakfast 7am
Nap 9am
Wake 9.50ish
Bottle 11am
Lunch 12am
Nap 1pm ?????
Bottle 3pm
Dinner 5.30pm
Bath 6.30pm
Bed 7pm
I know he's going a long time between naps but firstly, despite the fact that he's waking up an hour earlier, I desperately want to keep to pre clock change timings in the hope that he'll wake later (or at the same time as he was before Sunday). So, he used to go down for his first nap at 8am which is now 9pm, likewise with bedtime. He used to be in bed by 6pm which is now 7pm. The other reason for not wanting to put him down earlier, well two reasons really; I've tried giving him 2.5hrs A time, 3hrs A time, 3.5hrs A time and now 4 and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to how long he sleeps or how long it takes to get to sleep. Also, if he goes down too early he'll be done napping by midday. So, for example, I have tried in the past putting him down for his first nap 2.5hrs after waking, so 7.30am. He's awake by 8.30 at the latest. Then I put him down for the next nap 3hrs after that at 11.30 and he only slept for half an hour. As it's impossible to get him to sleep in the afternoon, he was awake from midday until bedtime at 6. I really want to try and close that gap because by bedtime he's a big bag of mad jitters.
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Ok I hear what you are saying. How about if you do a 3 hour first activity so nap by 8.15ish til 9.30 and then do 1.30 nap? Bed time 7.15?
Ds does wake around 5 or 5.30, usually goes back to sleep for 30 mins.
6.00 A
9.00 Nap, used to be an hour and I would wake him, but now doing 45 mins by himself
1.30 Nap, can be 1.20 usually, today got 2 hours :o
7.15 Bed. Have found this works best as bedtime for us, on nights we have gone even 15 mins later we get a longer mid night chat or earlier wake up.
Is he having a bottle after 3pm with his dinner or after?
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He has his bottle around 3pm then dinner around 5.30pm. I'll try doing 3hr, 4hr and then 5hr A times tomorrow and see if that makes any difference.
I had no idea someone so small could be so willful!
Thanks, Fiona.
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5 will prob be too long. How about 3, 3.5 and 4? Try a bottle before bed too, he might be wakening hungry. Make bath 15 mins earlier if you can and see if he will take it.
Wish you loads of luck, isnt it terrible when you become obsessed with sleep or lack of it? I was like this with dd til 6 months then she was a champion. Got it so right with ds, well until 6 months and now am sleep obsessed again ???
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does anyone know any good books for spirited chlidren and dealing with them and them being so strong-willied
i am looking for books for me to get a better understanding of there temperments.
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Yes there is a book called Raising our Spirited Child as far as I remember, cant remember the authors name but first name should be Mary so maybe google. If I find it in the meantime I will post it as I am thinking of buying it myself. Another baby book ::)
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Hi Fiona,
I'm sorry to say I have completely, 100% given up with BW. I didn't realise how close to the edge I was but today is the last day I'm going to do this. We are both now beyond distressed, beyond tired and the constant battles to get him to sleep are making it so much worse. I can't go through another day of trying and failing. If he won't sleep I can make him and trying is just making him more wired, more hyper, more upset. In future, when he's tired I'll just take him out in the buggy like I always used to. Not great but better than the way things are now. If the nights get bad again as a result, so be it. I just can't hack this anymore.
Sorry to be sending out such a downer but thanks very much to you for all your help and support, and to anyone else who's reading this and has helped in the past.
Clare.
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Hi Clare,
Sorry to hear things are going so bad. Yes I think you should take a break from itfor a while and just get him to sleep anyway you can. There are plenty of Mums who dont BW ( and I dont 100%) and they are still fab Mummies. I hope you still stay around though cos this is a great place for more than just sleep issues. Please pm me anytime you want a chat or advice if I can give it. Loads of luck and let me know how you get on. By the way I thought so many times of giving up the whole routine thing too but I am just a routine person and dont know where I would start without one. Pls do stay in touch.
xx
Fiona
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Thanks Fiona. I'll let you know how I go. Unfortunately, I don't have a plan B so without BW I'm completely lost. He's fallen asleep on the bottle at the last 2 3pm feeds so I guess I'll go back to doing a combination of feeding and buggy to sleep.
Thanks for your support.
Clare.
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hi clare
i just had a quick skim of your story - sorry to hear its been so disheartening. there are other books you can read with a more relaxed parenting style and whilst i have found BW really helpful, i have also found reading so more relaxed approaches comforting in that there is no real right....not sure if this is BW politically correct talking about other methods but i think it was a huge benefit to my confidence that there are soooooo many books because there are sooooooooooooooooooo many combinations of babies and mums.
Re books - i have found Dr Louise Porter, Children are People Too a great tool for raising kids (altho i only have an 11 month old so don thave a lot of research material!) - esp spirited ones where she shows that for these types of children too much discipline can just make things worse....she's an Australian author. and the other book i found helpful was Buddhism for Mothers....i suffered lots of anxiety and possibly postnatal the first 6 months....and found this book really helpful in guiding me towards remembering what was really important....
just a few ideas...
clare, lotsa hugs....the right way will emerge im sure.
beck ;o)
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Thanks so much, Beck.
I'll see if I can track those books down. I particularly like the sound of Buddism for Mothers as I think I'm going or have already gone insane. Anyway, I or we need something so really appreciate your suggestions.
Clare.
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HI everyone with spirited babies. I started BW today with my 10 week old daughter who I am 99% convinced is spirited. She is a complete nightmare to get to nap or go to bed and my husband and I are at our wits end. So we thought we would give this ago. But so far today has been a disaster and no different to normal except I have spent all day saying "Shh". Please tell me there is hope!
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Hey Serena,
10 weeks is also when I started BW. There is hope. It took us two weeks to really see a lot of progress. Things do get better. But there will still be lots of challenges, but they say that's motherhood :) Good luck :)
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Need some help! These may seem like silly questions but i'm a bit confused. Been trying to start the day at 7a.m but this morning my LO had other ideas and was still tired. I got her up at 7.30 but she really didn't want much of her bottle and still seemed tired so I took her back up to bed. She then slept for about 50 minutes.
Am I supposed to wake her at 7 to start the day? Even if she is still sound asleep? Plus when she wakes up and really no longer seems tired 45 minutes before her next feed do I continue to shh-pat her or let her get up? I'm really not sure. Everything at the moment seems to over stimulate her as she is so nosy!
Am really getting quite depressed. Haven't been out of the house for three days and seem to be spending all my time next to my daughters cot.
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hi serena
i remember the days of sitting by my lo cot shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ing. i remember i used to get so stressed and get a tickle in my throat and then start coughing and would get terrified of waking lo anyway. crazy??!!!!
if you can, keep a little perspective that you are just learning?!?! i guess use BW as much as you can and be kind to yourself when its just too hard. once i kinda got the "rules" of BW i then made up a few things of my own. also my lo worst time was 3 - 7 months. all went a bit mad especially with the 45 min cat naps.
i mentioned b4 that i used to try for 2 naps of no props (ie feeding or rocking to sleep) and then the third i would put lo in pram - i just couldnt do the third nap. once i knew lo could do it on his own then i relaxed a little.
but yes, i agree it does drive you bonkers. and please dont feel like a failure because you find BW challenging at times.....we are all new at this and Tracey did it for years.
the other EASY routine threads mite be more helpful in tailoring your day for you.
do u work on a 12 hour day?? if your lo slepts till 8am ??? would u then put him/ her to be at 8pm??
take care and if you can try and get out of the house even for a walk around the block....;o)
my spirited lo is 11 months and has mastered walking already and only has 1 big nap during the day - its like living with a puppy at the moment HE DOES NOT STOP MOVING i can actualy hear him panting as he is just so busy doing watever it is that is keeping him so busy. and then i hear myself panting as i try and keep up w him....very very tiring.
beck ;o)
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What a relief to find out my son is not the only one..... I dont think anyone would believe me if I told them how intense my lo is!!!
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hi all parents of the spirited
the last week has been particularly intense. all the walking and puppy like activity has made my lo soooooooooooo tired that i am constantly risking OT. have had some crazy early starts - 430, 5 and 530 - i nearly died. i was just so over it. i work so hard to get his routine right, and then BINGO! its out the window. and its only been 11 months - really there has neverbeen a routine thats lasted longer than a few weeks.
i had to bring dinner forward to 430 in the afternoon - as i had 2 nights were he didnt eat any dinner as he was just so tired and then of course was screaming for milk at 3 in the morning.
lots of early bedtimes as i am hesitant to go back to 2 naps as they are so short they dont really get him rested. my saving grace is his one biglunchtime nap. very grateful. and the last day or so we have seen an improement - i think maybe on top of OT now.
phew - bedtime for me. take care all of you.
beck ;o)
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I'm starting to loose the plot! Have had a busy week and am dealing with a teething LO. She's only 3 months. The only thing that seems to calm her down at the moment is a lot of cuddles and no amount of shhh patting seems to get her to nap. Getting seriously depressed. Had a complete break down this evening and had to leave my husband to bath and put her to bed. Just sat on the sofa crying :-(
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Serena, hugs to you, and to you Treebutt. This thread has gotten kind of quiet.
Going through rough time here too as we have all had the vomiting bug except ds so far and dd is in hospital tonight with a drip, dh is there with her.
The EW are killing me now at this stage they have gone on so long with my spirited little man, today was 4.15 am and now he just gets a bottle and goes back to sleep. Very bad habit I know but I cant do a 5.30 or before start for the day. Will just have to break the habit later. But it really kills me to give him that bottle cos I know what I am doing.
Anyone else been in this situation and gotten out of it?
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Fiona,
I'm in this situation right now. Except I just started feeding my LO, as he seemed to truly be hungry. My problem is, he's not going right back to sleep!! He woke at 5. Fed him, still took an hour plus to go back down. Naps have been horrible all day.
Sorry to hear about your family and illness. That is rough. I hope you all feel better soon.
Serena,
That was me two days ago :( I'm glad DH was there to help you. I hope it gets better for you soon. Once the teething is done just make sure to get back on track. Do what you need to do for her to sleep. Just make sure to pick up the pieces soon after. A few days of AP shouldn't throw all your hard work out the window. Somebody on here said to me the other day, treat OT like an illness. Do what it takes to get your LO over the 'illness".
Beck: really there has neverbeen a routine thats lasted longer than a few weeks.
This is what it is turning out to be for me too. I'm trying not to loose hope though :( I'm glad the early bedtime seems to be working for you guys. He will get over this hump soon.
Best of luck for a good day/night for everyone.
-Sherry
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Hi Spirited Baby Lovers,
I too am a mom of a SSB (Sweet Spirited Baby). His name is Benjamin and he turned 5 months old on 4/14/08. I started out as a Baby Wise mom, but after he was diagnosed with reflux, I couldn't even consider letting him CIO. Besides that, the 2 times I tried to have him CIO he made himself sick and even more OT. Then, around 3 months old I started trying to follow Dr Sears because I was distraught over the pain he was in from the reflux, but the Sears methods just made things worse for us. I'm really happy I finally found Tracy's writings and only wish I had sooner. I just bought her book on Toddlers in hopes to get a head start. This website support group is really wonderful. I'm quickly learning from all of you that spirited babies will continue to challenge us for a long time, so I shouldn't expect him to suddenly turn into an Angel baby just because we're following a routine. And, I have learned that with a spirited baby I need to be patient and flexible. Just being able to identify his personality and moods better has really helped me cope a lot better.
Right now our main challenge is the 30-45 minute naps. Last week I tried using PU/PD, but that didn't work, so yesterday I tried pat/shhhh.. and it really helped :) My LO slept for 1.5 hrs during his midday nap, and went down easily and slept 2.5 hrs during his late afternoon nap!!! Today so far I've only managed to get him to sleep 1:15 and :45, but I did sort of mess up his day by taking him to lunch w/a friend and keeping him up for 3 hours straight. On top of that, he started our day at 0530. Hopefully this afternoon will go okay.
For napping I know that Tracy suggests the babies lay on their side, which certainly would make it much easier to do the pat part of pat/shhhh.., but what do you do if your LO refuses to lay on his side? How do you soothe them? Mine is a back sleeper and won't stay on his side. If I try to hold him there, he just squirms and fights until he's on his back. Also, his legs are constantly moving...I hope that's normal...I'll have to ask our Pediatrician.
I noticed that most of you have a 12 hour day. I have yet to experience that. My LO would love to go to bed by 7:00-7:30, but then he's wide awake at 3am, 4am and 5am, and refuses to go back to sleep after that. So, I've slid his bedtime to just after 8:00. He still wakes up around 4am to eat, and then I try to get him to go back to bed and stay asleep until at least 0600 at which time I feed him again just to start the day off right. He gets a dreamfeed (BF) and swaddle at 10:00, so I'm not sure what else I can do. I would be in Heaven if he slept 7-7 with just a dreamfeed around 9:30 or 10:00. Does anyone else have this same problem? Any suggestions?
I need to run and do the pat/shhhh.... thing again now. Have a great day! :) Audrey
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No time ladies, but wanted to send big hugs to you all. Esp. Fiona with all that illness and DD hospitalized! Poor you...feel free to pm me anytime...I have 2 spirited ones and have been through pretty much every scenario. It does get better and they are loads of fun!!!!!!!
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thanks all for sharing.
fiona - EW are awful. (they are the cruelest thing i have discovered about sleep deprivation) but i have feed my lo anywhere between 430am and 5 for ages now - i do shh/ pat if i need to thru the night and it works till then and then its just easier to feed and get a quiet sleeping house till to at least 630 - 7. except last week when he didnt go back! the last few nights have been good. i think once lo eats more (coz he wants to do it on his own - so spoon refusal is common. i have to hand feed him rice!! tricky!!) he mite sleep thru but i figure 10 hours is good enough for me and proves he CAN SLEEP its just gonna take longer than i would like to sleep thru as such. and will just have to tweek when developmental stages hit.
serena: i still cry, more out of exhaustion and know other mums who cry each day just coz its so hard. thats normal but your depression sounds like its getting worse??!? are u interested at all in getting some counselling??? it mite be elements of PND. i didnt really get on top of my PND till 6 months...hope u dont mind me asking. i think i should have seen some one at 3 months. wat do u think?? :)
sherry: i think i must have panicked the other day - the EW thru me and i thought my routine was out the window, but the last few days have gone back to normalish wakeups, (still bottle at 5ish tho) one lunchtime nap, and early bedtime, early dinner etc. i really saw the dangers of OT tho and have to stay a little vigilant about it i think....but at the same time i just dont think going back to 2 small naps will really help either. lo or me!
bensmamma - welcome! 3 months to 8 months were my most challenging and am so glad i hopped onthe BW wagon. good luck with this afternoon!
anyway on with the day!
beck
HOPE I MATCHED UP ALL YOUR NAMES WITH THE RIGHT ISSUE!! ;D
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Just reading back...meant to say that anyone can pm me anytime...not just Fiona (though I love ya!)...
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Hi guys,
Feeling much better today. LO got off to sleep better tonight without any calpol or stuff for her gums so looks like she is getting over her little blip. Am gonna get back on the shh-pat wagon again tomorrow. Just get so stressed because I dont have time to do any housework. I know I should take a relaxed approach to cleaning now I have LO but it would be nice to be able to mop a floor once and a while! Of to bed now. Wish me luck for tomorrow :-)
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HELP ME!
I really dont know how to get my LO to take naps. I shh pat for hours everyday and she never gets further than a doze. That then leads to complete meltdown in the evenings because she is so over tired. I have now resorted back to taking her out for drives and long walks just to get her to sleep. I am really close to giving up because I can see absolutly no improvement. In fact I can hear her screaming now because she is over tired. DH is trying to settle her. I take her up to bed as soon as she seems to be getting tired. That can be as little as 10 minutes of quiet 'A' time. Yet she still never goes to sleep properly and the minute I stop shh patting she wakes up and smiles! What am I doing wrong????
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Serena,
BIG, BIG Hug.
I wish I had an answer.
I can say that I am totally feeling your pain. I thought things were going great with us doing shh...pat during naps for two days, and then everything fell apart yesterday evening and has completely spun out of control today. Our LO goes down to sleep, but only sleeps 35-45 minutes, and then cries until he's hysterical and won't stop. It seems the more I shh...pat, the louder he gets, and picking him up doesn't help either. This afternoon I finally got so upset that I was afraid of what I might do, so we set him down in his "exersaucer". He immediately smiled and started babbling. Of course, when I fed him 15 minutes later he passed out from exhaustion and he's still sleeping an hour later which just happens to be his normal bedtime. I'm guessing we're now facing an extremely EW tomorrow because of it. I know he desperately needs his sleep though, so I'm not sure if I should just let him sleep it off or wake him up.
I truly hope your LO's naps get better soon. I completely understand how this can drive you crazy.
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Serena,
Sorry I am really not good at helping get babies to sleep. Are you still swaddling? Maybe pat ssh is too overstimulating? Have you posted on the nap and sleep boards? You will get so many more views there and hopefully someone will be able to give you some advice. Meantime do anything you can to avoid OT
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Hi everyone,
not posted on here for a while but thought I'd check in and see what's what.
Bens mamma - welcome! Big hugs for having to deal with reflux on top of everything else. Our LO is 7months old now and still suffers from it but it only really shows by her poor sleep and sick because she laughs and smiles when she's awake and not tired. We've reached the point where she needs more gaviscon but if I give it to her she gets blocked so she's starting to feel the pain again. We've been finally referred to a paediatrician (to reassure me - Dr is happy with things!!) but I'm also trying to see if I can get a private appointment on our work healthcare scheme, which might be quicker. If you need advice on reflux (eg meds, support) the reflux, colic and crying board is ace.
Serena - big hugs to you too. I got so down recently that I put babybear back in her cot and went back to bed to let my DH deal with it because I couldn't take any more. I saw my GP and she's going to get me some counsellling plus she prescribed me some happy pills which I had mixed feelings about taking but I've tried everything I can think of and I know I need a little bit of help. It's taken me 7months though..... Part of the problem is that I've been trying for ages to get more help for L's reflux but no-one has been taking me seriously or is concerned about how tired she is and I feel like it's all in my head and I'm going mad.
Everyone struggling with routines - it's so true: just when you think you've cracked it it all changes! Big hugs to you too and hope your LOs stop their EWs. Our routine is sooooo pants at the moment but I think it's the reflux messing things up. I'm going out to the park this afternoon because I need some air and quite frankly another round of trying to get L to sleep is tiring me out just thinking about it!!! She's kipping at the moment but I have such a dilemma when trying to settle her because she won't settle with me in the room OR out of it! I've resorted to doing the popping in and out thing so I leave but if her grizzling escalates I go in. It's not ideal but it's working at the moment.
Pip pip!
Linds x
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Hi everyone,
We were on vacation for a little while. Happy to be home. Schedule isn't any wonkier than when we left, so that's good.
Mileshunt,
Welcome back.
Bens mamma,
Welcome.
Serena,
Have you posted on the easy forum? I've been able to get lots of help there. I'll try to help you too over there if you want. First thing everybody will ask is what is your schedule. I know that sounds obserd because when they nap like that - your like - what schedule? Trust me I understand that. But write everything down for a day or two. And I just put what awake times I was shooting for etc. You probably have already been over there. I'll look over there for you also. And on the naps board.
Beck and Fiona,
How are things going? Haven't heard from you guys in a little while?
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Bens mamma - welcome! Big hugs for having to deal with reflux on top of everything else. Our LO is 7months old now and still suffers from it but it only really shows by her poor sleep and sick because she laughs and smiles when she's awake and not tired. We've reached the point where she needs more gaviscon but if I give it to her she gets blocked so she's starting to feel the pain again. We've been finally referred to a paediatrician (to reassure me - Dr is happy with things!!) but I'm also trying to see if I can get a private appointment on our work healthcare scheme, which might be quicker. If you need advice on reflux (eg meds, support) the reflux, colic and crying board is ace.
Thanks Mileshunt. Don't you just love it when the doctor tells you everything is fine and you're telling him/her it's not fine?! You're the one in the trenches everyday...not them. I'll be sure to check out the reflux, etc. board....P.S. Our Pediatrician has Ben on Axid and it seems to really help without any noticeable side-affects. I hope your LO settles soon.
Bens mamma,
Welcome.
Thanks Sherrylnn.
Serena - I hope things are improving a bit for you. As mentioned, I tried the pat/shh..., but it only helped for a couple of days. I saw that he was screaming, covering his ears, and arching his back a lot. So, now I don't say a word (unless I think he can deal with it), and I just lay a hand on either his chest or his legs...usually legs since they're constantly up in the air. Occasionally I have to do PU/PD, but if he's arching his back, I just gently lay him back down and watch to see if I should do another PU/PD, or just rest a hand on him. I also try not to make eye contact. Also, I don't usually swaddle for naps, but if he seems to be on the way to hysterics, I quickly and quietly swaddle him, hold for a brief minute, then lay him back down. This seems to have helped a bit as well.
I've been keeping Ben home over the past week to work with him on sleep training and have received tons of support and advice on the sleep boards as we go through it all. I even hid all of the beloved pacifiers. He does seem to be improving slowly but surely on his short naps and EW's, so I'm plugging right ahead. Today he was able to avoid an EW with just me laying a hand on his legs for about 15-20 minutes. And, he did pretty well with extending 2 of his naps today the same way...even though his first nap of the day was a nightmare with an hour of hysterics before getting him out of bed to go eat. Last night he figured out how to turn over from back to stomach after we laid him down around 7:00 (had to remove the wedge pillow after I saw him flipped over on top of it and struggling). I thought for sure we'd have a restless night after all of that excitement, but he actually slept better than ever!
The main benefit I'm getting from BW [aside from this website ;)] is that I am much more compassionate, calm, understanding and patient with my spirited LO as he learns how to sooth himself. I'm no longer taking it personally when he cries.
Have a spirited day/night everyone! :D
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hi all, thanks sherry for asking after me...its been a funny week or two. still i think transitioning properly for 2-1 naps. lots of OT from constant walking - really , he is just up the hallway, down the hallway, up, down, up , down, he NEVER CRAWLS, and squirms to get out of my arms to walk and the pusher too. he wants to push the pram up and down the driveway about 100 times b4 moving on to the next thing. luckiily he will sit on my lap and read or watch a bit of telly just to come down. i can hear him panting....
still EW which i think is just from all the changes - a bit of OT perhaps?
so i am very tired and once i get tired i start to really doubt myself and anxiety gets the better of me - few tears and just feel like he is nearly one (next weekend) and i still feel like i have to monitor him constantly in case of complete meltdown. just exhausted. and i think can i possibly do number 2?? wat if number 2 is even more spirited - i dont think i could manage....and i feel bad wishing/ hoping number 2 is angel....thats not very nice!! anyone else feel that way? or have had number 2 and ended up with 2 spirited lo's??
i know my lo is textbook a lot of the time with everything else, and has responded well to BW once we caught on - but he has this spirited, possible touchly - moody like his mother perhaps?? lol. ;D side that just drives me bonkers. which is why im on this thread!! ;D
my dh is moving back home for good soon so i hope that breaks up the monotomy - he will be home each night which makes me chill out a bit.....
anyhoo - hope all of you are having a better day, if not a good day!
beck ;o)
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...and i think can i possibly do number 2?? wat if number 2 is even more spirited - i dont think i could manage....and i feel bad wishing/ hoping number 2 is angel....thats not very nice!! anyone else feel that way? or have had number 2 and ended up with 2 spirited lo's??
Yup! DH and I talk about this a lot! What if? Could we handle it? I believe that God gives us only what He knows we can manage, so I have faith that everything will be fine. We also have to remind ourselves that we got what we wished for...a very bright and outgoing child. Of course, we too often think that an "Angel" for the next one would be nice...you never know...
Glad to hear that you'll get some relief from your DH soon. Hang in there.
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i agree - god or the universe, has given me my lo for me to learn more about myself, which i have, and perhaps, became a better person (getting there)...and at other times, i think this is just sooooooooooooooooo mean and wat have i done to deserve this!! especailly at 4am!! i am so sick of learning my lessons!! ;D ;D ;D
just one day of selfish decadent i know everything bliss...maybe for mothers day??
thanks
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Beck,
You're killing my dreams :)
Everybody says - oh, naps get better at 6 months. Already loosing hope on that. Then they say - oh, once they start walking they sleep really well :)
I'm beginning to think that my LO will never nap well. We get a good nap here or there, but over all. Never really napped well. Beginning to think I will never find his correct A time to get good naps. Oh, well. I hear you about the 4 am nonsense. I hope it ends soon for you.
I hear you guys about the fear of the second child :) Hey, after this we'll be pros, right....? HA, HA. We'll have forgotten all these "lessons" we are learning. I swear I forget from week to week. I'm like didn't this happen last week, heh.
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hi sherry
lo naps well now and i have no trouble putting him to bed at night (occasionally have to resettle, like at the moment, when OT) but will nap 2-3 hours when he has one nap. so yes, for me naps got better and longer once closer to 8 months and then again once walking, so very tired, give you back some hope??! ;)
- but its been the nights that have been unpredictable - EW especially. i think it has certainly all gone a bit crazy since walking so i am HOPING that once he settles a bit, the nights will too.
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...and i think can i possibly do number 2?? wat if number 2 is even more spirited - i dont think i could manage....anyone else feel that way? or have had number 2 and ended up with 2 spirited lo's??
I worry about this constantly.... I'm so worn out by my spirited lo that I dont know how anyone could have more than one child!!!
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Hi,
I've been away from BW for a while trying to find another way out of our mess. Yes, I'm terrified of having a second, too. I don't know if I will. My LO is now 10 months and naps have dwindled to almost nothing now. It's now 13.34 and I'm still trying to get him down for his first nap. I try for an hour, give up, try a while later, give up and that's pretty much how my days are now. He's been waking at 5am since Jan and, although I now just feed him back to sleep, it hasn't helped with day naps. I've started to leave him to cry because I don't know what else to do. Yesterday he had the grand total of 50 mins sleep from 6 am to 7 pm and today it doesn't look like we'll be quite as lucky. He's up on his feet and is incredibly active, I thought he would be physically worn out and sleep better but things are getting worse and worse and GOD KNOWS what 's going on here.
He's been screaming too long now. Must go and do something.
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Hi,
I've been away from BW for a while trying to find another way out of our mess. Yes, I'm terrified of having a second, too. I don't know if I will. My LO is now 10 months and naps have dwindled to almost nothing now. It's now 13.34 and I'm still trying to get him down for his first nap. I try for an hour, give up, try a while later, give up and that's pretty much how my days are now. He's been waking at 5am since Jan and, although I now just feed him back to sleep, it hasn't helped with day naps. I've started to leave him to cry because I don't know what else to do. Yesterday he had the grand total of 50 mins sleep from 6 am to 7 pm and today it doesn't look like we'll be quite as lucky. He's up on his feet and is incredibly active, I thought he would be physically worn out and sleep better but things are getting worse and worse and GOD KNOWS what 's going on here.
He's been screaming too long now. Must go and do something.
Sending you a really BIG HUG!!!
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Clare,
Thanks for coming back to check in. I've been thinking a lot about you. As there are several times I feel like giving up. I used to try for an hour also, I've now gone to just trying for 20min or so. It is better for my sanity. Today I'm also trying the walk in - walk out. Last night was awful, awful, awful. So I'm thinking that maybe we just slacked too much on the indpendence thing when we were on vacation. I'm hoping this will help. I'm not sure where your from. I'm from the U.S. But if you live somewhere else is there a nurse or somebody who can help you. Seems like in other countries they have more resources for this sort of trouble. I would give my right arm right now for somebody to come help me.
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Thanks for your hugs and kind words. How much sleep do your los manage in a day? Am I worrying too much about this? He only got 20 mins today and I'm currently in the process of trying to get him to sleep for the night. I'm also doing the walk in walk out thing. I've never left him crying for longer than 10mins before but it felt like an hour. He doesn't calm himself down or tire himself out when he's crying but it doesn't seem to help if I'm in with him either! I'm in Switzerland but am English. I've managed to find a (sort of) English speaking person at a mother and baby centre so will go along on Friday. I don't really bother speaking to the pediatrician about such matters anymore because they all just say that some babies don't need much sleep and anyway mine doesn't LOOK tired. Well, thanks!
I changed things over the weekend and cut out the morning nap. As he was only napping 20/30 mins in the morning and at lunchtime I thought I'd try cutting one out to make the other longer. It worked! On Friday he slept 2 hrs, Sat 1hr, Sun 30 mins and today nothing (apart from conking out for 20 mins on the bottle). I really thought I'd cracked it but......back to the drawing board!
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Hi Clare,
Have been thinking about you too. sorry things are not improving. I didnt know you were in Switzerland, how are you enjoying that? Sounds cool.
Anyway, just a thought, re cutting out the am nap seeing as it worked the first day, what I would do and a lot of people do this with the 2 to 1 transition is to do 1 nap one day and the second day go for 2, even if they are short, they should keep chronic overtiredness from setting in. Please pm anytime you want a chat, it's hard being a Mom but even harder when you are away from home as I know only too well. Do you have anyone to help you out at all?
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If he is giving you trouble going to bed at night, and waking at 5, then I would think he's not getting enough sleep? I know 10 months can be a tough age. Did you look at the thread for that age?
I would say he was OT on one nap. It can go like that when they are OT. Great the first day and then down hill from there. I know you've tried all different amounts of A time too. So, I don't know what else you can do. Have you checked out the sample schedules for your age and tried a few that you think might work for your LO?
I too am away from home. So thank goodness for this board. I know I would have given up a long time ago without it.
Great idea on the naps Leahsmom.
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OK, so alternate between 1 and 2 naps? How long should I do that for before just doing 1 nap a day everyday?
Switzerland's OK but I don't know anyone and although I'm trying to learn German, I'm not really making much progress at the moment. I'm good at languages so thought it would come easily but it seems my brain has shut down for a while! Are you away from home, too? I remember you moved recently.
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Hi Sherry Lynn,
It just seemed too traumatic for both of us to attempt a day nap more than once a day. I know he's overtired and I've tried so many different approaches. On 2 naps a day, by the end of the day I'd spent literally hours bent over his cot until my back was numb with often no nap but usually with no more than a 20 mins nap. I'm sure he has started picking up on my anxiety so I thought, in order to save my own sanity and his, 1 nap might make the days less stressful. Although he wakes at 5, I've managed to get him back to sleep for an hour or so for about a week now so he's been doing OK at nights. He'll often wake up around 2 or 3am but I can usually get him back to sleep after 10/15 mins. During the day, he doesn't stop. I don't think I've ever counted more than 10 seconds of him being still. I struggle to keep awake for as long as he does!
Yes, although I've now broken most of the BW rules, I do still really appreciate all the support from this website.
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Yeah,
We moved to GA. Don't worry too much about breaking the rules. You HAVE to do what makes you sane. I know the hours over the crib thing, with a 20 min nap. Lyle woke after 35 min, of my "success" I tried resettling about 3 times, and then said, you know what, maybe you've had enough. Yesterday he didn't sleep much, maybe 2 hours, but he spend hours in his bed. And we had a major NW. I think it's because he spent so much time in his bed, really.
I would try giving the naps, make sure you are trying to give him indpendence and make a rule. I will spend X amount of time on this, and that's that. Being away from home is hard enough on the emotions, let alone spending hours and hours and hours in their room. If I wouldn't have stopped doing that, I know i'd be on meds by now. Don't get me wrong, somedays I still do, like yesterday. But I refuss to do it day after day now.
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Clare I would do it for as long as it works to be honest, if it does work. Most kids dont go to one nap until about 15 months though some do go as early as 10 or 11. DD went to 1 at about 13 or 14 months with no probs but when she went from 2 to 1 it was much more difficult so we kind of did every 2 or 3 day until I had to cut it out cos she was starting school.
Yes I am away from home, been away a long time now, currently in Bahrain moved from Dubai :-)
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Thanks, both of you, for the advice. I'll try alternating between 1 and 2 naps a day and see how we get on. I always promised that I won't spend more than 30 mins trying to get him to sleep but I always give in and spend longer because I think he's nearly there. I'll just have to be stricter and when 30 mins is up, that's it. I can't attempt doing 2 naps a day otherwise.
Some very good friends of mine have just moved to Bahrain, a lovely family from Perth, Australia. They're coming to visit soon so am counting the days to have proper pals around again.
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No way Clare, what a small world, wouldnt it be cool if I was chatting to the Mom on the expat site here and didnt know it :-)
Good luck with the naps, dont be a stranger
xx
Fiona
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and i think can i possibly do number 2?? wat if number 2 is even more spirited - i dont think i could manage....and i feel bad wishing/ hoping number 2 is angel....thats not very nice!! anyone else feel that way? or have had number 2 and ended up with 2 spirited lo's??
i know my lo is textbook a lot of the time with everything else, and has responded well to BW once we caught on - but he has this spirited, possible touchly - moody like his mother perhaps?? lol. ;D side that just drives me bonkers. which is why im on this thread!! ;D
I'm wondering if I can do 2 aswell!! IKJWYM. My LO is a mix of textbook (maybe a dash of angel) and spirited, it's just unfortunate that the spirited side shows in that she has a hard job winding down. She's not loud but she's always moving, even lying on her changing mat and her sleepy cues are non-existant! I think I'm being taught some lessons too! I'm just too stubborn, I would spend hours in the early months trying to get her to sleep and stop crying and now I'm wishing I had chilled out a bit more. As she's got older it winds her up more if I'm in the room trying to calm her but she also needs the help calming down so it's a bit of a rubbish situation! We usually go to groups in the morning and she won't get any sleep but quite often when I've given her some lunch at home she'll do a good stint in the afternoon. Except today...I was knackered and just wanted to put my feet up for 1/2hr with a cup of tea but DD wasn't having it! She must have been shattered because she was up from 6am and finally had went down at 14:40 after I worked out that she needed her next bottle ::)
Does anyone else feel like they're floundering in the dark trying to read their LO?
Clare - big hugs. I hope you get breakthrough soon.
Sherry Lynn - we used have days too where DD would spend loads of time in her bed but not actually sleeping, hug to you too.
Linds x
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Does anyone else feel like they're floundering in the dark trying to read their LO?
I feel like this everyday, at least once. :D
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Floundering in the dark is exactly it! Sleepy cues? Who knows? All I know is that yawns and rubby eyes mean 'don't even think of trying to get me to sleep' so, after 10 months I still have no idea when I should be putting him down. He only managed 30mins again today and that was only because he fell asleep on the bottle. UGGHHHHH!
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Clare,
Have you tried putting him down before the sleepy clues? That's what I have to do with Lyle. It is still hit and miss, but I usually have better luck if I get him in bed before the rubbing eyes etc? Now of course he proved me wrong today. But that's how it goes, right? He napped today really well. I pushed him what I thought was too far, and it took 30 min to get him down, but then he slept well. I know that is not what I would want to do everyday. But at least it worked today.
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Yes, I tried that yesterday because I know the morning is really difficult for him on one nap a day. I tried putting him down mid morning - he usually starts getting tired around 9.30/10 so I tried putting him down at 9am but he was having none of it. He eventually fell asleep on the bottle at 10.30am for 20 mins and that was it for the rest of the day.
I read somewhere that if you put your lo down at the same time everyday, even if they don't sleep, their body clock eventually realises this is the time to sleep - I guess if you're not dealing with OT this kind of makes sense. I brought lunch forward to 11am this morning and ended up whipping him out of the high chair at around 20 past because he was rubbing broccoli in his eyes and really struggling. It took 30 mins of crying and climbing out of the cot but I eventually got him to sleep. He's been down for 40 mins now!!!!!!!! This is a long sleep for us these days!
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fingers crossed for you Clare
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I know Lyle is a lot younger, but sometimes 5 minutes makes the difference between a 35 min nap and an hour and a half nap. So if he gets up at the same time tomorrow maybe try 9:15, 9:20 or even 9:25. It seems kind of crazy, but maybe it will work? He probably honestly wasn't tired at 9. I hope he took a nice long nap for you. I hope you have a good day.
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hi clare
sorry i havent really been following your story to closely but it looks like you lo might be similar to mine - at 10 months my lo started transition from 2-1 and it happended really quickly. my lo is 1 on saturday!!
i have had some OT due to very EW - 4, 430 - feel like i would die!! know 530 is a sleep in - can u believe it? so sometime i have to do 2 naps just to get around the clock. sometimes i do nap 1 in the car....nap 2 is usually no prob as he is so used to going down at 12ish. maybe??!! :P
but maybe you should look at the 2-1 transition nap board - i found this really helpful esp. once OT started to kick in....
hang in there - also , i read somewhere else, getting your lo to sleep at the same time each day by starting to do it in the pram or car? whereever your lo nods off to sleep easiest and then slowly try to get them into there cot - going on from your idea of getting there body clock set....so maybe once every 2-3 days try for cot, and the rest try pram/ car?? i know its BW accidental parenting but by 10 months you must be getting pretty over it!!
just some ideas
beck ;o)
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Thanks for all your great advice. I have to attempt a morning nap tomorrow as we've got an appointment at 11am (that's his lunchtime now) so I'll see how I go making it a wee bit later. Beck, I might take your advice and try the morning nap in the pram next week. I'd rather his lunchtime were later but he's beside himself by 11am. We have to rush through lunch and I'm sure that's not good for him. If he could just cat nap at around 9.30 then at least lunch could be a bit later and less rushed. I've been looking at Gina Ford's book. She suggests they have a catnap of no longer than 30/45 mins in the morning so that they sleep longer in the middle of the day. The problem is that if he does sleep in the mornings then it's almost impossible to get him down again for any length of time so, as he only ever sleeps 20 mins in the buggy that might work.
On a positive note, I did manage to get him down after lunch yesterday and he slept for 1hr 10mins. So far, he's been asleep for 45 mins so maybe we're getting somewhere.......
Thanks again everyone.
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i have used some of the concepts from Gina Ford too - but i only use most of the stuff that BW support as well. i use the pram too for the same reason as lo will wake after a short time. altho with Very EW i sometimes try the cot - but i use a bottle to settle!! (cheating!!)
i have such a good run now with the lunchtime nap and i dont want any napping much after 215pm - like Gina Ford suggests to make sure lo is in bed by 630/ 7pm, that a short cat nap in the pram (i think BW call this a throw away nap?? so they are a little more relaxed as to how you get them too sleep.) is the only way to squeeze in a nap to get him thru the day.
see how you go - let me know. if it makes you feel any better ihave read about 10 books of varying styles and use bits from here and there but i think BW manages to capture the essence of how i want to parent.
;o)
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Hi Guys,
I run a mixture of BW and GF and it works well for us apart from the middle of the night feeding ( habit now I think plus ds doesnt eat well so very likely is hungry). I did GF with dd and it worked fab for us but she was an angel baby.
My advice is dont get hung up on GF or BW cos at the end of the day if you look at the schedule routine it is basically the same. By 10 months both recommed a 45 min am nap if you are having pm nap probs and a longer pm nap with a certain amount of wake time before bed.
Honestly speaking half of my regrets I didnt GF ds from day one but her routines for small babies and their sleep times were just too short for my ds. Also BW was the way I went with my dd once she became a toddler as it does go with my style of parenting in a lot of ways. You can mix and match what suits you and your lo.
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Hey Guys,
I was wondering... we are still having so much trouble. You guys have read lots of other stuff. I haven't. I've only read this and Baby Wise :( Which of course I do not do, it's about the worse thing you probably could do with a spirited LO.
Would you guys please please please take a look at my post in the Easy forum if you have a little time. I know it's really really long, but maybe just browse it. Or ask me some questions about what's going on.
In a nut shell, DS is still doing low A times. I'm trying to extend, but it's not going well. We have NW and EW now, and that makes it really hard to extend the A times. He has always been low. On are best nap days he has made it to where he is asleep at about 1h30m. Many people have suggested that that is what is causing the NW, plus being OT. Like he is tonight. We just had our first NW, less than 1 hour after bed :( I really hope it's not going to be a bad night. But looks that way.
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Hi Sherry Lynn,
I'll have a read asap and see if there's any way I can help/make suggestions. I'm so in the dark myself but maybe we can find some hidden solutions.
Clare.
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I was just wondering what some of the best things you've learned from other books. Like maybe how I can get lyle to stop being ot, and if I really need to extend that morning A time. Because when I don't worry about extending it, it is my best nap of the day. When we have NW or EW though, it is really hard to know when to put him down for the first nap. Which I know you know all about :)
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Well I'm having a go at the Gina Ford routine. The routine for a baby between 9-12 months is:
Feed times: Breakfast 7am, lunch 11.45am, bottle/breast 2.30pm, dinner 5pm and bottle/breast 6.30pm. Nap times are 9.15/9.30am - this is just a cat nap for 30/45 mins. They need to be woken up if they sleep beyond this. The nap which has the most importance is the lunchtime nap which is between 12.30 -2.30pm. The maximum daily sleep is 3 hours but she doesn't say what the minimum is. I've just started having a go at this. It's really hard to get him down for the lunchtime nap if he naps in the morning but if he doesn't nap in the morning he's in a terrible state by 11ish and lunch has to be rushed down him super early.
I went to a mother and baby clinic yesterday and the adviser there said that he has to get used to sleeping at certain times of the day and what's crucial is to not give up. So, if after an hour you're still struggling, you just keep going until he's asleep. If he goes in to the cot and comes out before he's slept he's learning that you'll give in. Well, that's easier said than done, isn't it?! I've just spent an hour getting him down for his lunchtime nap and I don't think I could have gone on for much longer. We've also been referred to a sleep psychologist so we'll see how it goes.
I'm going to read your post now.
Clare.
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Hi everyone, I thought I'd join this group in hopes to learn more about raising spiritied babies because I definitely have one!!! I currently feel like I am a total hostage to dd's napping schedule too. We have only been doing sleep training for the past few weeks (she is now 13 weeks and just on 3 months), but it took me 8 days originally before she finally caught on, thankfully. However, the only problem is I don't feel like I can leave the house because when we do, sometimes she will sleep (which obviously isn't a problem when she does), but then sometimes she decides not to sleep, which causes her to become OT and OS straight away, then flat out refuses to sleep for the remainder of the day. Then we spend the next few days playing catch-up before she gets back to being able to self-settle again and taking all of her naps. Her A time is generally on the low side of the recommended at this age as she is usually only awake for an hour before she is very vocal about needing a sleep again. She is generally only taking 1 hour naps too, so I think I need to extend her A time, but will only try by 5 mins. I am so scared of trying to extend her A time though because she gets quite adamant when she wants to go down and I am worried I am going to miss her sleep window, then get a shorter nap instead of a longer one. It is so confusing and all just trial and error. The other thing I find hard is keeping her from getting overstimulated. As her A time is so short, it is hard to even get down to the grocery store, just at the end of my street, during that time. I tried the other day and we were 20 mins over when she wanted to go to bed (but still within the 1.5hrs), so she was harder to settle, then just took a 30 min nap.
But, my question is to anyone with an older spiritied baby, does it get any easier around nap times and trying to leave the house? I have a toddler ds who needs to get out of the house and I purposely took 9 months off work for my maternity leave so I could also spend quality time with ds as well, doing fun stuff. I would love to be able to take him to the zoo and do all sorts of things, but at this point I could never even imagine an all day trip out of the house... Please give me some sort of hope that things get better. PS - I am also about to attempt a 4-day trip interstate in about a month and am pretty sure I should give up all hope now of her being able to stay in her routine!! Thanks for listening, if anything, I'm just happy to talk to people that understand a spiritied baby ;D
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hi all
have been reflecting on your request sherry....its a tough question!
Gina Ford
I have problems with some of her language and tone - its pretty bossy and patronising and because she is so confident its hard not to feel like a failure when you cant get your lo to do what you want. she has the same routine for ALL babies. i also questioned if that was the mothering style i would reflect back on and be happy i chose. BUT i do think she has some good ideas. as clare as shown thats the routine i keep in mind....but i am also a little flexible ie. at the moment lo has a lunch between 1030 and 1130 snacking style - as by 1130 he is to tired to sit in a highchair. so i let him snack. Ford also suggests CIO from a certain age...which i dont like much either....BUT i think the concept is the same as BW - lo HAVE to learn to sleep without props etc. i have done some crying - more the walk in walk out style when i stopped night bottles and a while back with naps when i had to stop rocking him so sleep. i believe in consistancy if you do decide to do any crying...shh/pat or WI/WO...
i think Gina Ford and BW idea of not getting into AP is great as its terrible to make your lo get out of a habit you cant do anymore but you taught them inthe first place.
clare - by end of 3 months GF has 2 hour A time doesnt she?? so sherry, you lo should well and truly be onto 2 hours by 6 months!! according to her!
and by end of 6 months GF A time in the arvo is 2.15pm till 7pm isnt it??? sorry i have lent my book to a friend.
fiona - i find it interesting that you did GF with first but then not with number 2....and noticed A times where too long.
i have read LOTS , prolly too much but at the end of it all - i figure its all much the same: independent sleep - no props, no feeds etc. how u get there is much the same - varying levels of crying, with you there or not.
naps - A times vary, GF has very long A time. but i do keep it in mind - i am very mindful of keeping my lo lunchtime nap the same. even if i have EW my lo has a small nap in the morning and is down for nap 2 by 12. today he woke at 630am so no morning nap - just 1130 nap, so only 1 nap today. other books talk lots about tired cues and similar routines around sleep....
also im not really a fan of the language "babies learn that you will give in" - the language insinuates that babies are manipulative which i think is pretty harsh. babies do what they can to get your attention, i agree, but its from genuine need, not because they are manipulative. Children are People Too by Louise Porter is a fantastic book about treating children with respect and remembering they are people too!!
clare - the sleep stuff i have read only does crying for naps for up to 20 mins and if they are hysterical get them out of their cot?? thats a pretty long day in lo room if you have to stay there??? thoughts?? for bedtime its different.
and then there is the other end of the spectrum and thats the just do wat you like, more of the attachment style parenting - and i think you wouldnt be BW at all if you could sustain this or wanted to! ie. co-sleeping and feeding to sleep, feeding on demand etc.
sorry sherry, prolly more confusing than helpful. :)
phew! thats all i have to say at the minute! welcome campbellchick!!
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I have to admit I haven't really had the chance to read the Gina Ford book properly but I know she has quite a harsh reputation. I've skimmed through some bits that I thought might be relevant but it's really just the routine that I'm trying. So, if I manage to get him down for a morning nap, I only let him sleep for 30 mins. He has been known to sleep for up to an hour in the mornings but then he might only sleep for 20 mins or not at all throughout the rest of the day. What I'm really aiming for is one good nap in the middle of the day so he can get through the afternoon. I'm trying really hard to take a more relaxed approach to all of this - I've tried and failed on this so many times! I guess I'm doing a bit of BW a bit of GF and a bit of AP: I always try to feed him back to sleep when he wakes at 4/5am and it usually works. That's a tough one to accept as we worked so hard to stop feeding to sleep last year. I'm at the 'whatever it takes' stage.
Sherry Lynn, I'm so sorry. I've read your posts and I just don't know what to suggest. I'm so in the dark myself but I do think with our spritied babies we sort of have to accept, to a point, that every day will probably be different so we have to be super flexible. We sometimes go all day with no sleep or just 20/30 mins and I get so upset about it because I feel I've tried everything. This new routine is, well, new, so I don't know if it'll work. I'll certainly keep you posted and if I make any breakthroughs I'll let you know asap.
I feel as though 'sleep' or lack of it has been the issue dominating our lives since the beginning of the year. All we seem to talk about is how much he's slept today, what we can do to try and make it better. It's exhausting and very, very hard. I don't tend to leave the house until the afternoon after I'm done trying the am and lunchtime nap. Then, I just need to get out of the house and if he falls asleep in the buggy, so be it.
Take care, all.
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i am pretty much with you clare - i GF and BW and now that i have a broad understanding of wat the so called 'rules' are i make the rest up myself. i feed my lo to sleep at 4/5am, i have done for months now. Naps i would try for nap 1 and 2 and then 3 would be in the car usually as i was always so tired....and now i do nap 1 in the pram or car. so i am no purist!
i struggle all the time with failure and i think its the anxiousness of not knowing wats around the corner that really sends me close to the edge....i still get counselling regularly.
it really upsets me that you are all so desperate to find a solution and tired and over it - struggling with the opinions of others and opinions of yourselves as mums. i think you are all doing an amazing job. my lo turned 1 yesterday - and yes, in refelction it goes so fast. all those days i spent crying and obsessing because a nap wasnt on time, a feed he didnt want but was due for - i wish i had been kinder to myself....i really think lo's pick up on our stress (and then i would stress about this too!!) cant win can u?!?! :P
i may have read nearly all the styles i can think of and i genuinely think BW is pretty much on the mark at capturing most of the good (?) stuff....and funnily enough the book i go back to most is Robyn Barkers Baby Love - its more of a book of facts than a style of routine or parenting....
and Buddhism for Mothers has been my saviour. whilst i have no interest in becoming a buddhist it is the only book that really captures how truly gut renching being a mother is....it also reminds me of the bigger picture and my role as mother. some quiet time to reflect and get some perspective.
shelly - i too read your EASY posts and have been trying to help where i can.... lotsa hugs. it was quite over whelming to read...
clare - keep up the getting out of the house. also in the long run my lo now sleeps great in the pram. i give him his snuggle and he knows he can nap....and i think it was from all the practice and long walks when i was going insane managing 3 naps! ;D
and when people offer help, take it, and when people say take care of yourself, do.
beck :) :)
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Treebutt( sorry dont know your name) I did it with dd but started at about 4 months, she was an angel baby but she just slotted into easily, maybe that's why. I still kind of do GF with ds as in a short nap in the am and a long one at lunch time. When he was smaller he couldnt do her long wake times, now I find that her wake times are too short for him and he needs at least 3 hours in the am and nearer 4 for other naps.
Yes the book is badly written and she can come across as condescending, but as I said before her routine and the BW routine are pretty similar, BW just seems a bit more Baby and Mommy friendly. I never diverted from the routine with dd and made sure I was home in time for naps etc, used to drive myself mad, but she did sleep through all the time, rarely did EW and her nap transitions were easy, she still is a great sleeper.
Ds wakes during the night for a bottle and does EW but is a great napper and I have been much more flexible this time round, will stay out longer in the am if I need to and just put him down for his nap later without worrying too much about it. The one thing I dont deviate from is our 7.30 bedtime for both of them. Oh and ds is very very spirited, was textbook spirited so the fact that I can change his nap times makes me think there is still a bit of textbook in there despite the NW and EW. Just need to get those sorted which is turning out to be pretty impossible.
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sherry lynn - sorry, i have been calling you shelly. not sure where that came from!
beck
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Beck,
Thanks so much for a little perspective. And for reading my posts. I wrote this out last night but then my computer messed up. Here is what I've come up with as what went wrong. And still no idea how to fix it.
I get sort of jealous at all kind of random things - as we all want what we can't have. You guys worry about feeding to sleep at that time - Lyle won't even fall asleep at the bottle at any time in the night when I offer one :) Sometimes he will go right back down - sometimes we'll be up for two hours (pat/shhhhhhhhhh)
Thanks guys for taking the time to write to me.
Ok,
Instead of you guys having to read that sooo long post. I'll give you the gist of what I think happened, and what I think our problems are now. Maybe with your knowledge of other theories you can help me.
We tried extending our first A time by ten minutes. It turned into a nightmare. I gave it 2 weeks because Lyle tends to resist change and that was suggested to me. Well I think you should only give it that long if you see some progress. We just spiraled into a serious case of OT. So right after that I think Lyle went through his six-month growth spurt. I think we are on the other side of all that madness now. But we still are having some trouble.
If I stick to 1h20min and then put him down in the morning I can get a good nap. Today I think I could have gotten another good nap if I stuck to 1h40 for the second one, but he fooled me and looked like he wasn't tired, and then went into OT while I was taking him to his room. So the rest of the day went down the tubes. But, even on the best of days, with two decent naps in the morning we get into trouble in the afternoon.
He is often up from his catnap around 4:15-4:30. I can't get him down for another catnap on most days. Even if I put him to bed early he can't make it to 6:30 without getting OT. He does best with 1h20m before bed. Even then if it was a rocky afternoon he will still go to bed OT, like tonight.
Sorry if it was too repetative since some of you read the post. Today was a no catnap day Lyle was up for 4 hours before bed, and that was with being in bed at 6......
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Welcome Kerrie,
I don't know if it gets easier with A times and going out later. But looks like you have a good routine going. Job well done.
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sherry
the only thing that i can think of - what is your feeding schedule? Gina Ford is pretty adament that feeding is THE key to good sleep. i am pretty sure its 4 hour from really young - like 6 - 8 weeks or something like that. i know crazy!!
can you get close to 4 hourly feeds? i know it might be a hard 2-3 days but wat if you focused on that instead of the naps??
also, do you have a maternal health/ or child and health program where someone can come and stay with you for a day? they mite see something that you dont?? i know some nannies run this privately too?? take the pressure off you having to come up with everything all the time.
will keep thinking and let us know how you go
beck ;o)
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Hi Sherry Lynn, I just read your last post and so know how you feel. I think I need to extend my LO's A time, but am terrified as she spirals into OT so quickly, then the rest of the day is all downhill. Even the last 2 days for some reason (which happens often) she has totally REFUSED to take her last nap of the day ::) (and I call it the last nap instead of catnap because she only sleeps 1hr at a time anyway) so she has ended up being awake for 2.5hr - 3hrs. It seems ridiculous as she is sooo overtired by bedtime she has been screaming the place down for half an hour before hand. I can't get her down any earlier because dh isn't home to take care of ds yet while I feed her and get her down!!! I really feel for you, it is amazing how much of a difference 10 minutes makes in these babies lives.
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You know one of the weirdest things about Lyle is when he was Holly's age he almost never took the cat nap. Now that he has hit 6 months I have a lot more success (Just when it's time to start thinking about dropping it :)
I think he only needs less sleep during the day, but I can't figure out how to equal it out during the day with his Lower A times. Ah well. Thanks for your guys support though.
DH has been home the last two days, so things feel better :)
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That would make sense about needing less sleep through the day, but I agree, how does that work when they are on the low side of A time... I actually think Holly has more NW's when she takes all of her naps through the day then when she has gone without at least 1 nap through the day ???. I'm glad you are feeling better though, it is always good to have dh home to get some help ;D
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hi everyone!
I just want to remind you that this is a site dedicated to Tracy's work. so please try to focus the discussion toward the BW techniques and not towards other techniques that aren't of Tracy's teachings.
we are glad your all here and supporting eachother!!!!
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Hi Sherry,
It's such a difficult time. My LO started refusing his afternoon nap at around 6 months but it left such a stretch of the day with no sleep before bedtime. Because he woke so early in the morning he was done napping by around 1pm which left 6hrs before bed!
Sorry, he's just woken up AGAIN. Have to go.
Can you shift all the naps forward a bit so the afternoon nap happens a bit later, just to balance the day out a bit?
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No,
The problem is that all his naps are short these days. Like 35 min. Well yesterday he made it up, but it took 3 naps. He was already up for like 3 hours during one of those stretches.
It's 12:45 and he's already down for a 3rd nap :( And OT at that.
I'm going to stop complaining now though.
Hope you guys are having a good day.
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Dont' worry Sherry, I know how you feel. Yesterday we also had a bad day - her first nap being 45 mins, then as DS had a terrible fever I was so worried about him, I forgot her nap was only 45 mins (so totally my fault) and she didn't go back down for her next nap for 1hr 15 mins, then forget it, the other 2 naps of the day were 30 mins each and I had to fight pretty hard for those ones. She had a pretty good night, but I am still paying for the OT this morning again!!! Just wanted you to know that I completely sympathise and am facing similar issues. I will also stop complaining too and just put all my energy into hoping the day will get much better :P
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PS - I also wanted to ask - does anyone know if Tracy or anyone else has any good books on raising spiritied children that they could recommend? Thanks
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Kerrie there is a highly recommended book called Raising our Spirite Child, but I can't remember the authors name, first name is Mary. Maybe if you post in the lounge or discipline and socialization skills some will give you the name, will be buying it myself this Summer
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Thanks Fiona, I'll look it up and will definitely be buying it!!! ;D
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~HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY~ :-*
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HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TOO! THANKS.
Great news!
We just moved DD, 25 months, to a toddler bed and with no issues
We weren't planning on doing it until she was three but something inside me said to go for it.
Thankfully our crib turns into a toddler bed so three sides are still the same as the crib.
The side that is open we have a long side rail as she is a wiggly little thing and it has an opening at the end for her to get in and out.
We told her that she needed to stay in bed until mommy and/or daddy come or until her light turns on (we put a timer on her lamp)
and only twice has she gotten out but just stood there...didn't walk around or anything.
Now that she is in a toddler bed any advice on what to put her in when we go on vacation?
We tried putting her in her play pen but she's almost too tall
She will not sleep with us or on a big bed....never has
will only even lay on our bed if TV is on
She wiggles a lot....a whole lot and needs something to keep her 'in'
Any thoughts?
Melissa
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Hi Melissa, can you get a travel bed rail? Here is a link to one (it is in Australia, but may be able to get the same brand or similar folding ones other places)
http://www.oztion.com.au/vshops/item.aspx?itemid=4038023
do you think that would help to keep her in if the bed is up against a wall?
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That would work if there was a bed for here where we travel.
Thanks. Great idea :)
What about when we got to a place that doesn't have a bed for her to use?
Hmmm......
I just haven't seen anything here in the States.
Melissa
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Melissa how about a ready bed? They are raised at the sides so would have something to keep her in. Just saw this one on line and it's pretty cute and there are loads more too.
http://www.bigredwarehouse.co.uk/prodinfo.asp?number=IN10001
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I have seen that before.
I can't seem to find them on line at the Babies R Us/Toys R Us here.
That would be perfect for her.
I'll keep looking around to see if I can get one here.
Thanks. :-*
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I know they look so comfy I almost want one for myself. I had to sleep on an airbed for 3 weeks and it was great, best sleep I ever had. I saw them on the toys r us uk site but that is not much good to you, how about ebay?
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That would work if there was a bed for here where we travel.
Thanks. Great idea :)
What about when we got to a place that doesn't have a bed for her to use?
Hmmm......
I just haven't seen anything here in the States.
Melissa
Hi Melissa, I get a catalog of baby/toddler products (in the states). Here's a link to their travel air bed...not as cute as the Big Red Warehouse ready bed, but you can have it personalized: http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=6720&parentCategoryId=85184&categoryId=85218
HTH, Audrey
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Ohhhhh...I really like that one.
Thanks.
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Hi, everyone. I'm Ashley, mom to little girl Chandler, who is nearly six weeks. I've admitted to myself this weekend that I have a spirited baby. We used to blame her sleeping problems on reflux and gas, but now we have come to see that even when she isn't suffering from those things, she is an unbelievably physical and wriggly little thing--oh . . . who WON'T SLEEP! After reading over some of these posts, it's clear to me that I am on the beginning of the road that you are all on. I've been holding out hope that it will "get better" when her digestion is more mature, but I think I'm going to have to accept that this is just her temperament.
Like many of you, I've been frustrated with EASY and feeling like a failure because Chandler won't conform to it. We do EAEAS during the day and manage to do EAS for a few cycles at night only. She does sleep better at night, but no really long stretches anymore since two weeks old.
Here's my biggest dilemma that I'm hoping for feedback on: THE SLING. After weeks of trying everything under the BW sun, I've come to see that she will not fall asleep for a nap unless she is put into a sling. Not only that, but she will not stay asleep if I transfer her to her crib. She will take a full nap ONLY if I'm wearing her the entire time. Needless to say, this is not a sustainable situation. I am exhausted, sore, and can't get important things (like pumping and bottle washing) done when I'm wearing her.
We swaddle her at night (with limited success), but I don't want her in a straight jacket 24/7. The sling restricts movement, but doesn't bind her like a swaddle. I believe the restriction of movement is the secret. Even if she's been asleep for 30 minutes and I lay down on the bed with her for 10, then slowly ease myself out of the sling, the minute she feels that freedom of movement, she starts wriggling, then stretching, then windmilling, then clawing at her face, etc. . .
The same thing happens at night with her swaddle, by the way. She can fight her way out of anything. Velcro is no match for our "Bobcat in a Sack" (as my husband calls her).
I'm really concerned that when she transitions to daycare, she will be unable to sleep during the day, causing all kinds of chaos at home at night. Already, she can't be put to sleep by any babysitters or grandparents. We know that if we have someone watch her for a few hours, we will pay later by having an overstimulation screamfest. I stay home 24/7 just to manage her sleep. I know I can't keep this up, as I have to return to work.
I hope someone out there can share their experiences with me, good or bad.
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Hi Ashley,
Things got really hard for me also at 6 weeks. What I had to do was go back to the swaddle. For all naps. I too worried about him being in it too many hours of the day, but trust me, my spirited little guy was not hindered in development by the slightest. He is ahead of all developmental milestones as far as movement goes. I had to do pat/sh with him for two very very very hard weeks to get it to work to put him to sleep, but it was the best thing I ever did.
As you can tell our sleep is still not perfect, we've hit a lot of bumps a long the way, but it was still really worth it.
If you want to try to do this you have to find what works for your LO. Some spirited LO can't can't pat and shh, some can only do one or the other, or maybe rubbing, or just your hand on her chest, something like that.
Lyle still won't sleep at other people's houses, but my mom is visiting this week and she has been able to help with naps and what not.
HTH
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We swaddled every nap until 6 months
and for the first 3 months at night
It did seem like a lot but it was the only way she's sleep during the day
www.themiracleblanket.com
It's the only thing that worked on dd who never stopped moving at night and could get out of everything
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Hi Ashley,
Welcome! We still swaddle every nap and at night (6 mos) and it really helps. We also had to do PU/PD and Pat/Shhh for about 8-9 days (it's very hard but worth it) in order to extend his short naps. Now he does quite well unless uncomfortable or overstimulated. Like yours, my LO also has reflux and a lot of gas, so you always have to be considerate of that possibility. His reflux is managed by an inclined bed and prescription meds, which I highly recommend if you haven't done so already. Their discomfort has to be managed before you can work on their sleep issues.
Best wishes.
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I have been thinking of getting the miracle blanket the past few days as DD is already breaking the swaddle at night and then she wakes right up. the website is
www.miracleblanket.com
I am goignt o talk with DH about it. when we start more serious sleep training I think he will like it more.
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Hi Ashley!
Congratulations on your baby! Big hug to you - it's hard enough when they're tiny let alone when they break every 'rule' in the 'book'!!!! Our LO has reflux and when it's controlled it does make a big difference to how quickly she'll settle. I've found that out since the new year when the gaviscon stopped doing any good whatsoever unless we gave her so much she was blocked up. She's on ranitidine now and we're still assessing if it's working or not. I think it is.... (touch wood)!We also swaddled until she was 3months old. The miracle swaddle thing was ace. I also made several swaddling sheets out of a double flat sheet and made sure they would wrap round loads of times!!
You are not a failure because Chandler's not conforming to EASY right away - you're a great mum because you care about her rest and quality of sleep!! Spirited LO's have so much zest and get up and go they just find it hard to wind down and relax. I try to remind myself of that when I'm ready to scream in fustration!!!! I think a few people on here have found it can take until they're about 7/8months before naps fall in. Plus all kids are different. We find that our LO needs it to be very dark to nap to minimise distractions so I'm also worried she won't sleep as well at nursery. Having said that I'm sure the nursery will have seen it all before and maybe will have some tricks up their sleeve to help...
HTH
Linds x
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Thanks for the swaddle blanket link! I ordered one right away when I saw the special arm flaps. My biggest problem with most swaddles is that she works her arms upward and pulls the fabric over her nose and mouth when she's sleeping. (In fact, I just went to check to see if she had done just that and found she had managed to roll over from her back to her stomach for the first time--in the swaddle! I was just washing her sleep positioners. Gah!)
Another question--how have you all managed to get your LO to sleep longer stretches at night. We're doing the cluster feed, but she still just stays on that 3-hour schedule at night. Any other ideas?
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Is she waking up at the exact same time at night?
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No, we rarely get her to sleep at the same time because she is always OT/OS and needs SERIOUS wind down. She tends to wake at night, three hours after she went down, then three hours after that feed, etc. until she really wakes up, which is usually between 6 and 7:30 a.m. The first night feed is always a dream feed, and she goes right back to sleep. However, the 2nd late night feed usually requires about 30 minutes of sh/pat. If she goes to bed too early, we're in for THREE night feeds! Until a couple of weeks ago, she would sleep 4-5 hours the first stretch, then three the second, which only required two night feeds, then she would still be asleep when we got up. Now, there always seems to be a feed and activity time right when DH and I are trying to get dressed and eat breakfast. It's a real pain as we're each trying to hand her off to each other. I really want to gain a little more control over when she goes to bed and the number of night feeds. Impossible?
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Hello ladies!!
Mind if I join you all??
I have a very spirited 5mth old. I thought I was going bananas and that I was a crappy mum until I realised that C is just very spirited and stubborn, like his parents!! ;D ;D
We do have a routine of sorts and I have been trying my best to get him to conform to naps etc but just getting all stressed about it. C is also on a purely solids diet now too so this four hourly feeding isn't suitable for him. BUT, having said that, he is now adjusting his own naps with the changes to his diet (less formula and more cows milk) and a wee bit of persuasion from mummy.
I just need to pay more attention to when he's getting OS or tired as he will cry and get all worked up and hot and get more worked up cos he's hot and so it goes on!!
At the mo, our 'routine' is more of EAEASAEASEASEAS:
Awake at about 5am
5-7am mummy trying to get him back to sleep (usually with a bit of AP :-[ consisting of bringing C into our bed for a cuddle)
7am - 8oz bottle formula
7.30 - 9am - A time
9am - Baby porridge made up with 3oz cows milk and made fairly thick
9.30 - 11am - A time
11am - 12.30pm - Nap! This is a 'new' nap which only used to be 30-45mins.
12.30 - 1pm - A time
1pm - Lunch (solids, or rather, purees!! ;D )
1.30pm - A time
2pm - Nap (30-45mins)
2.30pm ish - snack - fruit and water
3pm - A time
4.30pm - nap
5pm - tea (purees again)
5.30 - 6pmish - A time
6pmish - bathtime routine starts - Bath, milk (8oz) and then cuddles and stroke-shush in bed from about 6.45pm
We do stroke-shush as C found me patting his back highly hilarious so now I stroke his nose in time with me shushing him and it seems to be working. He still has a dummy tho...... ::)
Ah well, I suppose I'd better haul myself off to bed in anticipation of another day's hard work!!
Mandy xx
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QUESTION FOR ALL: Does your LO every cry in his/her sleep? I sat beside Chandler during her entire 90 min. nap today because she was very OS/OT and HAD to sleep or else. Twice during REM sleep she just suddenly burst out with some very pitiful crying for no apparent reason. I put my hand on her and sh'd, and she stopped right away and went back to dreamland. Was she dreaming? I've heard her do this before, but by the time I got to her crib she had woken herself up. This was the first time I was right there when it happened. What do you all think? Do your babes cry in their sleep?
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Yep, mine does that all the time.
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Hi all,
welcome to all nwies with spirited Lo's. I wish I had more time to write to you all individually but hardly get time to ge ton the internet these days.
I just want to recommend a great book which has been helping me deal with Ben and what is to come and learn a lot about myself and my coping strategies and my intensity too. Ben is only 11 months but I am glad I am reading it all the same. It is one of those books (much like BW) that I will definatly read it again adn again the next few years.Even if just for moral support and to see I am not alone in it all.
Anyone with toddlers a little older will really benefit. If you are having a hard time and need some guidance...get this book. 'Raising your spirited child. A guide for parents whose child is more intense, perceptive, sensitive, persistant and energetic. Even those with spirited babies can get a lot from this book.
Hope it helps some mums out there.
All the best
Michelle
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I've just bought that book and it helped me understand myself more lol!! I like it because it's got a lot in common with BW. I think parents of touchy babies would find it helpful too because of the section on sensitivity...
Yes - our LO made funny cries in her sleep. Chandler isn't on a growth spurt is she? That's the only thing I can think of. We had a phase at about 15weeks when L would keep waking up after starting to sleep through and we never did get to the bottom of it!! Sorry I can't be more help.
Linds x
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PleaseHelp!!
Hello I have a 6wk old (4wks prem) baby boy who is spirited with a streak of touchy and textbook!!! :o
Right I need help. Lo sleeps well through the night wakes 3hourly but that is ok and usually goes straight ack down. However during day when he is awake he seems to just cry. Very rarely do I get any A mostly just E and S.
I watch for cues and he yawns almost immediatly after eating but still can take up to an hour to settle down. I have just started to get smiles so I know there is a happy soul in there somewhere. Am I expecting to much of my lo at 6wks? I feel he is upstairs all the time!!
Advise would be great.
Billie xx
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At 6 weeks, 2 weeks adjusted your lo will most likely wake up, eat, have a diaper change and go back to sleep shortly there after....45 minutes-1 hour after waking.
New borns sleep 18-20 hours a day. That's very normal and since he is a premie he needs the extra sleep.
Why do you think he is crying....in pain, OT, hungry?
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QUESTION FOR ALL: Does your LO every cry in his/her sleep? I sat beside Chandler during her entire 90 min. nap today because she was very OS/OT and HAD to sleep or else. Twice during REM sleep she just suddenly burst out with some very pitiful crying for no apparent reason. I put my hand on her and sh'd, and she stopped right away and went back to dreamland. Was she dreaming? I've heard her do this before, but by the time I got to her crib she had woken herself up. This was the first time I was right there when it happened. What do you all think? Do your babes cry in their sleep?
Yes, quite often lately.
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Hi all,
welcome to all nwies with spirited Lo's. I wish I had more time to write to you all individually but hardly get time to ge ton the internet these days.
I just want to recommend a great book which has been helping me deal with Ben and what is to come and learn a lot about myself and my coping strategies and my intensity too. Ben is only 11 months but I am glad I am reading it all the same. It is one of those books (much like BW) that I will definatly read it again adn again the next few years.Even if just for moral support and to see I am not alone in it all.
Anyone with toddlers a little older will really benefit. If you are having a hard time and need some guidance...get this book. 'Raising your spirited child. A guide for parents whose child is more intense, perceptive, sensitive, persistant and energetic. Even those with spirited babies can get a lot from this book.
Hope it helps some mums out there.
All the best
Michelle
Thanks for the tip...DH saw this at the 1/2 priced book store the other day so we will definitely be picking it up!
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Crying in sleep.....well now Ben often wakes and SCREAMS so loud. I leave him and sometimes he settles but often I have to go in, hold him and talk to him fro 20 mins or so and then he may or may not go back to sleep but the screaming goes on and on. He is 11 months and I just don't understand why. When he does go back to sleep he wakes up smiley and laughing as if nothibng ever happened. It is freaky really. It scares me. Other times he naps so well with no peep and sleeps through the night and then this happens. The inconsistency drives me to tears. Maybe something is wrong with him pscychologically!?
I guess we mums of spirited Lo's will never understand the 'my baby slept through at 4 months ' concept. For us it is a process.
Michelle
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Crying in sleep.....well now Ben often wakes and SCREAMS so loud. I leave him and sometimes he settles but often I have to go in, hold him and talk to him fro 20 mins or so and then he may or may not go back to sleep but the screaming goes on and on. He is 11 months and I just don't understand why. When he does go back to sleep he wakes up smiley and laughing as if nothibng ever happened. It is freaky really. It scares me. Other times he naps so well with no peep and sleeps through the night and then this happens. The inconsistency drives me to tears. Maybe something is wrong with him pscychologically!?
I guess we mums of spirited Lo's will never understand the 'my baby slept through at 4 months ' concept. For us it is a process.
Michelle
AMEN Sister! I could have written the exact same post as you for my 6 month old. I don't think it's psychosomatic though.....at least I really hope not......
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Hey Michelle, my ds did that at 6 months too for about a month. He would wake up just screaming and would not calm down for a while, maybe after 20 mins of cuddling. I had read a little about night terrors and just put it down to that. I couldn't explain it any other way and it really didn't last all that long (a few weeks to a month). It was a bit scary at first because I thought he might be in major pain, but after it happening for a few nights, I realised it must there been something else going on. Could there be the possibility that is what your ds is going through at the moment?
Billie, as Grace's Mom suggested, your LO probably just needs the sleep. However, as he is crying a lot and taking quite a while to settle, he might be really overtired too. When I first started sleep training with my dd at 7 weeks, she was way overtired and wouldn't cry all day, but at the end of the day she would have a major meltdown for over an hour or more. It took me about 8 days to get her to catch on to self settling and catching up on sleep, but during that time, it felt like I was ALWAYS in her room trying to either get her to sleep or extend her very short naps. Maybe if he is OT and he catches up on his sleep (and he may need more than the average baby), he will become easier to settle and start having happier A times - fingers crossed :D...
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I think it must be dreams or sep anxiety. Hope it pases!
Thanks girls!
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Hi girls!! I am the mom of a 2.5 year old DD (textbook/angel) and 8 month DS (spirited/touchy/textbook - he seems to be getting more spirited with age ;)). For the first 6 weeks of DS's life I would descibe him as a touchy/textbook baby. Then it was like overnight the touchiness seemed to be replaced with spiritness. Now at 8 months, I definetly have to say the last months have not been EASY. It's really been a shock to both DH and I (after having DD who was an extremely easy baby) and we've been quite stressed at times (a lot of the time-LOL). Since DS was 6 weeks old sleeping has been an issue. For the longest time he would cry and cry and cry before he'd finally settle and we could shh him to sleep. After months of being REALLY consistent (I mean rarely leaving the house anytime near nap time, for fear of the fallout)naptime became easier. Around 6 months his naps got longer (thank goodness) and for the most part since then his naps are 1.5 hours each. Sometimes we get astray for a few stressful days but then we're able to get back on track. DS has never slept through a full night. We usually get at least 6 hours and then he'll wake once or twice to eat. I'm not convinced he needs to eat twice, but he REFUSES to go back to sleep without nursing. He doesn't nurse to sleep, he just needs the routine of it :-\.
DS is a VERY impatient eatter. When he sees that I'm getting the nursing pillow out, he SCREAMS until I have him set and he starts eatting. Also, meal times in our house are VERY loud. He even screams between bites from the time I take the spoon out of his mouth to the bowl to get another bite.
Activity wise DS is very active. He doesn't take to being put somewhere that he is immobile. Exersaucers are good for maybe 5 minutes and then he will just YELL and YELL like he's mad. He used to love the jumperoo, but now is bored with that too. Now he likes to be on the floor with lots of toys so that he can practice getting around. He doesn't crawl yet, but I tell you he's resourceful. If he sees a toy he wants he'll find a way to get it-LOL. If DD has a toy he'll often try to take it from her :P. If he's starting this already, I'm scard to see what he'll be like as a toddler. The thing that really gets to me is his constant yelling. He seems to get bored so easy, like he constantly needs something new challenge to conquer. I often feel guilty because I spend so much time trying to calm DS or fighting with him to get down for naps, that my DD doesn't get the attention she needs. Also, she watches WAY more TV then before DS was born, just because it's hard to be doing everything for both at the same time :(. Anyways, that's my story. If any of you have any suggestions or advice I'd love to hear it (I'm sorry I'm not able to read through the 28 pages on this topic-not enough time). Thanks!
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Hi Lilasmom. Sorry, no advice from me...just really BIG HUGS!!!
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Hi Lilasmom, no advice from me either as my spirited dd is almost 4 months old, but I have a feeling that I am in for a very similar experience to you as most of what you've said sounds very familiar and my toddler ds was also an Angel baby. A few people in this thread have pointed me to a book called 'raising your spirited baby', which I have on order and will be reading that for any tips. Big hugs to you though and I hope you get some great advice (and I also might be able to use some of it!!!) ;)
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Also, meal times in our house are VERY loud. He even screams between bites from the time I take the spoon out of his mouth to the bowl to get another bite.
I just thought of something that may help your mealtimes...I use several spoons for feeding my DS so that he isn't ever without a spoon in his hand or mouth, except when he throws it on the floor ;) Also, you might try sign language since screaming seems to be the way he is communicating with you right now. Perhaps if he realizes he can communicate by signing, he'll calm down a bit...it may not help, but it might be worth a try. HTH.
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Hi all. My name is Cat and I have a seven week old spirited son named Krieg. We are just figuring out that much of his crying is b/c he's easily OT and OS, so we're working on putting him down earlier. Apparently by the time he yawns, he is past tired. Any help on what other tired cues are to look for? Also, when he refuses to fall asleep, how long should I attempt to put him down before giving up and feeding him again? He is on about a 3 hour eating schedule when he actually naps.
The one other question I have is how in the world do I manage things like grocery shopping, etc, when his window of A time is so short and he easily gets overtired and impossible to put down. He has also refused to sleep in the car, stroller, etc lately.
I'd love some feedback. And thanks for all yalls posts. They've been really helpful for me to understand my son and know that I'm not alone in this!
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Hi I'm new here and I am hoping someone can give me some advice.
I have a 7 week old spirited baby. She seems to have so much energy. She can sometimes stay awake ALL day (yes, I do mean all day with no nap). She wakes between 6:30 and 7:00 am and goes down to bed at 7:30. So over 12 hours with no nap!!!! Of course by the time bed roles around she is so overtired it's a sturggle to get her to relax.
Additionally, if I'm holding her she seems calm and relaxed but the minute I put her in her bassinett she start to kick her legs and swing her arms all over. She makes grunting noises (like she is angry). She also tries to bury her head in the mattress. It is so hard to get her to relax. I pick her up relax her again and put her back down only for it to start all over again.
During the night I wake her before I go to bed (about 10:30) and give her a bottle. She will wake up once during the night to eat and goes right back to bed (of course with the same arms and legs and grunting). She also will make these grnting noises all night long sometimes.
I'm not sure what it's from or how I can get her to relax. Have any of you ever heard of this? Any suggestions on how to help?
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Peysmom have you tried swaddling her? I used a miracle blanket with ds, after he got out of a normal swaddle once too often and I found him at the bottom of his cot completely under his sheet. I only used it until about 3 months then I slowly weaned him off it and into a grobag. If she likes to bury her head in the matress how about introducing a very soft lovie. Your night time sounds really good.
Cat hi, I am sorry I am not very good with routines at such a young age, maybe have a post on the easy board.
Hi Lilasmom, your ds sounds just like mine, he was scooting around the place at 4 or 4.5 months on his belly after his sister. He cant be still for 1 minute unless kneeling at the toy box pulling out everything :-). DD was an angel baby toddler too so dh and I still dont know what hit us, he is still on a middle of the night feed which still has me knocked for 6. But he is soo much fun. Re the food, a few spoons might work or how about finger food, at 9 months I had to give ds a bread stick to eat along with food or I got nothing in.
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Hello, my 19 week old is called Ella and she is a spirited baby, she loves stimulation (and cries when she isn't getting it) but then gets over tired and cries anyway .. !
she is my first baby and we are finding it hard.
Having reached the 4 month stage the conversation has turned to sleeping through the night but we are a long way off that!!
I was breastfeeding but stopped 2 weeks back and she is now fully formula fed. A typical day is as follows
Wake 630am
Feed 7am
Play happily half an hour, then grouchy (needs holding)
Sleeps 9am ish for half an hour
Feed 930am (cries for this as though I have starved her!)
From 10 until 12 she is a mixure of happy and grumpy, usually needing lots of cuddles or a walk in the pram
12 ish feed.
At this point my friends baby's (they say!) go to sleep for an hour or two. Not Ella!! I did try to just put her to bed but she screams for half an hour, I genuinely don't think she is tired so we just get on with our day together.
At 2 ish she will often fall to sleep (after some persuasion, a walk or being rocked to sleep in my arms) for half an hour
3ish feed.
Afternoons tend to be better, but she wants to be held, sat on my knee or me to play with her on her mat (that initial half an hour in the morning is the only time she will play by herself, whilst i grab cereal and a cup of tea)
At 5 ish she falls to sleep for 20 mins or so
bath at 6, feed 630pm, put to bed (usually without any fuss and awake) at 7pm
Nights are interesting!! The dream feed has never worked for us, it back fires as she suffers a lot with wind, put her on to colief in the last few days as we suspect a lactose intolerance, or at least a digestive upset of some kind (doctor cant find anything wrong with her)
She used to go to 2am, 5am and wake at 7 (needing feeds each time)
Last night she woke at 11pm to feed then 2am and then cried until 5am!! Did lots of pick up/put down, shushing etc and eventually had to let her cry it out (which made me feel terrible) She fell to sleep until 7am
I love her to peices and she is a very sociable, bright (if babies can be considered intelligent for their age!) and beautiful little girl, very spirited but we are both suffering with her lack of day time sleeps
Anyone else just put a spirited baby to bed during the day?
Sorry this is a bit of a ramble, tired after last nights farce!
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Hi Pamelat,
Just wanted to quickly say; I could hae written that post myself when Ben was that age. It is all so normal what you are describing. Horrible I know but it will get better I promise. There is not a lot you can do but just stick it out and try to keep doing the great job that you are doing. Try not to let her CIO, if worst comes to sort try to at least stay with her. I know it is so hard....I have forgotten the feeling.
Sleeping throuhg the night is such a massive expectation and one that mothers of angel abaies just can't and will never understand. Stick to your guns, try again and again to enforce the routine and I reckon she will (albeit later than other babies) in the next months sleep through at least sometimes.
Good luck. I could write pages and pages and reading your post bought it all back but I have to go and do stuff. Let us know how it goes!
Michelle
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Fiona, thanks for responding. I've tried swaddling and she manages to get out of it. Maybe I'll try that miracle blanket that you mentioned. I think I saw a link in an earlier post. I'll have to go back and check. Today was not horrible and went as follows:
up at 8:00
Play time until 10:00 when she had a bottle
Play time for 30 minutes
20 minute nap in her crib (she doesn't like the crib and is still in the bassinett in our room).
Woke up VERY cranky and overtired. Screamed her head off for 40 minutes.
Nap in her bouncy chair for 1.5 hours.
2:00 bottle.
Play time until 3:00
Walk in the stroller until 4:30 (nap for 15 minutes)
woke up again very cranky because she was still tired.
Cried for 40 minutes - napper in my arms for 30 minutes.
Bath at 6:00
Bottle at 6:30 - starting fussing again. I brought her right up to the bedroom turned off the lights and did shh/Pat in my arms for 20 minutes and another 15 minutes while she was in the bassinett. She is now off in dream land and should stay asleep until 10:30 when I wake her for a bottle.
I find it so difficult to do anything with her as she is so easily Over stimulated and her schedule is so tight. I have to give her her bottle at 6:30 at home and in her PJ's or all hell breaks loose. So basically my day needs to be done by that time.
Is there any way to have a normal life without OS these little ones??? I'm hoping as she gets a little older she will get a little better but from reading all of the other posts I'm not holding out much hope.
Kete
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Hi Cat, I just wanted to mention that one of the tired signs that is often overlooked is actually jerky movements. When your baby first wakes up you will notice that their movements of legs and arms are quite smooth. Once they start getting jerky, this is probably your first sign of tiredness. I have forgotten a lot of the tired signs, but one other is eye rubbing. This is one my dd does a lot and she also buries her face into my shoulder and rubs it. When they get a bit older, ear pulling is one as well. I know exactly how you feel about trying to get out of the house for errands when their A time is so short. My dd is only just now being able to stay awake for up to 1.5hrs some of the time, but until recently, she was always just 1hr. I couldn't even do a grocery shop during this time and the grocery store is just at the end of my street. Sometimes she would fall asleep in the cart while I shopped, but then I would only get a short sleep out of her - which seemed like a waste of a nap. Or I would have to wait until a Saturday that my dh wasn't actually working. The other thing I would do, since the store was so close, was take the kids for a walk in the pram and just do a little bit of shopping each day (what ever would fit in the bottom of the pram plus maybe carry a bag or two home). All of a sudden one day she seemed to be able to have longer A time. I always look for her tired signs instead of the clock and she started being able to for up to 1.5hrs, which makes it so much easier now to leave the house.
Fiona, I just wanted to ask you, do you use the Grobags for naps as well as nighttime sleep? I have always used the Grobag at night and wrapped during the day. My LO is now almost 4 months old, so I am only still wrapping just as a sleep cue more than her actually needing it (she always got her arms out, so it defeated its purpose anyway), and have been thinking about using the Grobags during her daytime naps too. Does this work well?
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Cat, I also forgot to mention that when I was sleep training my dd I would usually try for about 40-45 mins if she was refusing to nap, then get her up. I would feed her if it was within about an hour of feed time anyway, then only leave her up a short time (maybe 10-15 mins) and then try all over again. At the time, it felt like I was forever in her room trying to get her to sleep or trying to extend her very short naps. But eventually it paid off and she caught on to self settling (it took 8 days all up). The only time we now get off track is when she is OT/OS, which was happening about once a week whether we went out or stayed in, for some reason. Now that she can have slightly longer A time, it doesn't seem to happen as often, but does still happen (one of the joys of a spirited baby I suppose).
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Grobags work fantastically well, would have gotten ds in his sooner if I could, and they are a marvellous sleep cue. But ds needed the swaddle until about 3 months prob near 4. I started leaving one arm out of swaddle for am and cat nap but left him swaddled for his long day time nap, then went to one arm out even for long nap. Then second arm. But I completely swaddled at night time. Then I went to grobags for day time sleep and then eventually for night time. I would say it took max 2 weeks, I didnt want him to get too used to any of the alternatives so as soon as he was comfy I went to the next stage. He was in his gro bag full time by 5 months.
Sorry cant help re getting out of the house, ds had really long wake times from very early on except for before his am nap.
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Hi everyone thank you for your responses. When I go back and read my entry I feel like I focused a lot on the negative, so I thought I'd add some positives about my sweet baby boy. He LOVES to cuddle!! I love when he just lays his little head on my shoulder cuddles into me. It's so sweet, and instantly melts my frustration away. He's also got the biggest, cutest smile that melts my heart. It's so amazing to see him get so excited about something. His arms and legs kick and you can see the anticipation and happiness on his little face. I wish we could all feel that intense excitment everyday!! He loves his big sister. His face lights up when he sees her. She can make him stop crying in an instant. They're so sweet together!!
Campbellchick- Thank you for the book suggestion, I am going to pick it up tonight. I'll let you know what I think of it.
BensMamma - The spoon idea really does help tune down the noise!!! Thank you so much. I also picked up one of those mesh feeders and DS LOVES it!!! It keeps him occupied while DH and I eat.
Kriegs mom - I feel your frustration, it used to seem impossible to get anything done with DS was your LO's age. Often I would send DH out in the evening to do the grocery shopping, or if I really couldn't avoid going out, I'd put the infant carseat in the grocery cart and cover it with a blanket (obviously not tightly so air could flow in the sides) so that it blocked out visual stimulation. I found this made a world of difference and sometimes he'd even fall asleep.
Peysmom- I second the idea of using the Miracle Blanket!!! It was a life saver for me. I swaddled both my kids until they were 6 months old. DS almost always cried when we wrapped him, but it made a huge difference in his ability to relax and fall asleep (and staying asleep).
Sorry those I haven't responded to, DS is waking from his nap.
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Hi all,
welcome to all the new people!! Sorry I've not got time to address you individually but just wanted to say - hang in there!! We have always struggled to get good naps from DD but since about the 12week mark bedtime has been ok. That's only because we stick to a routine that we can do ANYWHERE! If it's any consolation even now at 8months I still miss DD's tired cues sometimes. I spent the first few months so confused and wondering what i was doing wrong, now wish I'd lightened up a bit. We love grobags here too! Miracle swaddle was a lifesaver in the early days too - until we had to start putting her to sleep on her tummy (that's a very long boring story!!). It will be interesting to see if we have another one if they'll be spirited too!
Linds x
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Peysmom -
C used to do a lot of grunting and leg raising etc when he was younger. Was wind. ;) ;) Have you tried something like Infacol or Gripe Water?? Worked a treat for C as he was a very windy baby until about 3mths (13wks). It used to have DH and I wetting ourselves laughing in the middle of the night when his legs would come up and he'd fart, really loudly, then go back to sleep!! ;D ;D ;D
Sorry for lack of personals but I'm knackered!! C thinks that 5am is a good time to wake up at the mo.
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Kitten, it's so funny you mention the wind. She passes gas A LOT!!!! I mean all the time. DH and I crack up too. I will have to ask the Dr. about that at our next visit. The good news is over the past few days I have been getting a little more sleep from her. It is so very strange because she did well at first and then it was just horrible and now it seems to be getting better again.
I hope this schedule is working.
:)
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The Incredible Shrinking Nap!
The last four days have been just awful. Chandler (now two months) used to take a 1.75 hour nap in the am, then a 1-hour, then 30 min in the afternoon. However, for the last few days, she has been unable to stay asleep for her morning nap, waking and crying every 20 min. or so. Of course, starting off the day this way causes the entire day to go downhill from there. She gets OT, then can't sleep for her other naps. She's also had trouble eating--she fusses through the whole feed. She then goes down like a ton of bricks around 6:30 p.m. for the night (earlier than her usual bedtime), then wakes twice in the night for feeds because she didn't get enough during the day. DH and I are just on our last nerve. We went to the doctor yesterday because I was concerned about her feeding. They just weighed her and saw that she was up from her last visit, so they weren't worried. They gave her some prescription gas drops, but they haven't made any difference. I just wish I knew what to do about her constant waking during her naps!
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Ashley,
What A time are you doing for the first nap?
Also if she is in an OT cycle you might need to decrease A time for just a few days to catch up?
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Intentional A time is never more than 30 minutes--EVER. However, she often decides to have a couple of hours of A time whether I like it or not. I often feel that the only part of EASY I have any control over whatsoever is the E. I can give her my very best nap winddown ritual every time, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I really am starting to think that I'm just doing all this EASY stuff for myself--to tell myself I'm making an effort--but that she's really the one in charge and she will play and nap when SHE wants, not when I or any "method" tell her to. Sigh . . .
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Ashley, I had a smilar problem. My LO would get so OT by 7:30 that I had to put her to bed but then she would wake up twice during the night instead of once and it was really difficult for me. What I decided to do was feed her, put her to bed at 7:30 but then I wake her a few hours later right before I go to bed for the night. Then she eats and goes right back down and only gets up once between the time I go to be and 6:00 am which is the time she usually gets up. Try feeding her before you go to sleep and maybe she will only wake once during the night.
Good luck.
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Hello all, I have a spirited (+reflux) little girl - she will be 4 month old in a week's time. Still trying to go through all the posts in this thread but I'm so glad there is this thread! Pls forgive me if I ask some really fundamental questions..
1. For the past 2 nights, she has been major clawing and kicking at me when I rock her to sleep before bedtime. I gave up and put her in her bed and to my surprise she babbled and yelled for 30min and then fell asleep! Tonight however, she's having a harder time and is mantra crying. Question - when she babbles/yells/mantra cry - do i make my presence known? or do i just stay low and leave her alone? If I show my face, soemtimes she starts to smile and play..
2. When she mantra cries - do I still shh/pat? Or shd i leave her be?
3. She started crying a little more hysterically tonight (think her reflux was paining her) so I picked her up and rocked her till very nearly asleep. Should I have done the shh/pat instead - tho from past experience doesnt really work unless she's ALMOST asleep..
4. She only ever sleeps/naps in her room and her cot (dark, cool etc). How will I ever cope when bringing her out? She has never fallen asleep outside.. just keeps crying more and more no matter how much I rock. Pls help..
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Hi Ashley,
Do you think she might have silent reflux? My LO has it, and it became really noticable around 2-3 months. Same symptoms as you are describing. He still gained weight, but it was always a struggle for him to eat and his naps were awful. After we convinced the doctor that something was wrong, he prescribed an acid reducing medicine, had us elevate the head of the crib 30-45 degrees, and keep DS inclined for 30 minutes after eating. Things got much better after that.
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Ashley,
I forgot how old your LO is?
30 minutes counting feeding time?
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Here's my latest sleep issue with my 9 week old, Krieg. I'd love some feedback if anyone has ideas. I have been doing the sh/pat for a few weeks, and he finally got the hang of it for 3 straight days, then we had a bad day and he lost it all. I've started over and it's been about 10 days of trying to reteach him to put himself to sleep. He now will contentedly go into his crib without crying, but will not fall asleep. He'll just lay there wrestling around, making noises, not crying though, for as long as I'll let him stay in there. I know he's not overtired when I put him down, but I'm afraid to let him just play in there too long, as he'll get overtired after a while. So when I finally decide it's been long enough, I pick him up and rock for a minute, and he'll usually give a cry/scream or two, then will be out. Any thoughts on how to get him to fall asleep without rocking? He is getting too heavy to make it a pattern!
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This is just a thought, so I don't know. I know that it also took me weeks to get the pat/sh thing down - and in hindsight I should have extended my LO time right after we got the hang of it. They usually extend by about 10-15 min a month. It's been a month for you guys so maybe he isn't quite ready to go down when you put him down. Maybe try extending by 5/10/15 min? Even if he is yawning. My LO always gave that tired sign - and I never extended. We didn't make it to 2 hours A time until I went cold turkey at 6 months :(
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Audrey--thanks for your input. Chandler has been on Prevacid for about two months now. The pain is better, but she still refluxes in her mouth at times, which bothers her.
Sherry--She's almost 10 weeks now. The 30 minutes does not include feeding, but does include diapering and changing clothes, etc.
MLC--I have a LO that claws and wrestles with me, too. Today, I think she pushed my thumb out of joint during a feed! I leave my LO to kick and babble in the crib for awhile. If she isn't asleep in 20 minutes, however, I'll pick her back up. I agree with you that the sh/pat in the crib doesn't work unless she's on the verge of sleep anyway. When mine cries out at night, I will often leave her be for a few minutes to see if she puts herself back to sleep, which she does as often as not. I really judge by the tone of her crying. As for sleeping out, I have problems, too. She will fall asleep in her car seat on an outing, but she sleeps lightly and wakes frequently. She is always overtired when we get home and I have to deal with calming her down and putting her down for an unscheduled nap. However, I keep taking her out because she's just going to have to get used to it. I can't stay on house arrest forever!
OH, btw--had a fascinating revelation yesterday. Chandler was having a meltdown after being in the car for four hours. She was screaming and couldn't be consoled. I asked my sister-in-law to hold her while I vacuumed up a spill in the nursery. And wonder of wonders--she stopped screaming the moment she heard the vacuum and went right to sleep, like someone hit her over the head with a hammer! Wow!
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You have to count the feeding in the A time. How long does it take her to feed?
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Hello mommies:) My spirited little chap's name is Dane and he's nearly 6 months.
We are just now transitioning from 3 to 4 hour schedule and ANY advice is greatly appreciated! He's doing great eating solids and we're still breastfeeding. He is, as I'm sure you all have experienced yourselves, a hellion to put down for naps. Night time isn't quite so bad, but there are the occasional scratches, smacks and pinches from my little love. I also can't ever get him to nap while we're out unless it's in the car and that's only after much screaming.
Any pearls of wisdom you may have would be wonderful! Best of luck to all of you mommies of spirited babies! They might not be easy babies, but they sure have personality!
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Welcome Melenakim!
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Hi, Malenakim. Welcome. You're right about the personality, that's for sure! We can all sympathize about the naps here. I know I've got the scars to prove it. Wish I could help you on the transition, but my LO is only 10 weeks. I'm sure someone else can help out, though. Good Luck!
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I'm also interested in any advice on the 3-4 hour transition. My LO is about 4.5 months old now and we haven't made that transition yet. She barely makes the 3 hours for a feed - is usually wanting one by 2.5 hours, no matter how long she has eaten the feed before (she is EBF so I have no idea how much she is actually eating). Also, she is still only sleeping about 1hr - 1.5 hours for her naps - taking about 4 a day. She has only just made it to an awake time of 1.5 hours (she has always been 1hr max until recently). Any advice on the transition would be appreciated...
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Thanks ladies for the warm welcome! It really is comforting to know that there are others out there! Still transitioning, which was going really well and then a few days ago Dane began screaming whenever we walk into his room for a nap. He's fine at night, but he HATES naps. I even climbed in the crib with him for a nap to show him I wasn't abandoning him, but he is on a nap strike! Today he finally took his first nap at 3pm! He will not fall asleep unless you put him to sleep or at least have him so drowsy he can't function. If left to play all day I believe he would. He is, however, making it to the extended feedings pretty well and waking the same time each day, a definite improvement!
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Hiya malenakim & Campbellchick, hope the transitioning is going ok. I found this a weird time too. My DD is 9months this sunday and she moved to the 4hr eating pattern quite easily but couldn't do the A time so naps went all over the place, plus the reflux was getting worse so she wasn't sleeping at night great and there was on-off-on-off teething so it was hard to tell what the problem was IYKWIM. By 6/7 months things were settling down a bit if that's any help. You could try slowly building up the A time. I tried following the BWSAYP book but I found it hard to be so rigid with the times especially because we had digestive issues spoiling naps as well as temperament so if she managed to get to sleep I left her until she woke up!!
Now she's on a short nap in the morning, 1.5-2hr nap in the afternoon and can finally just about make it until bedtime without a catnap although she's so zonked we don't have time for a story!! I think that because she's moving constantly and is now pulling herself up she's tiring herself out more. However she's getting her top teeth and it seems to be hitting her hard because naps are a bit troublesome again unless she's had some bonjela and calpol. The lateral incisors have come in so she's starting to look like a little vampire!!
Sorry this is waffly but I think you just need to ride this phase out and be consistent. You'll get there, even by winging it like I did. Just tell yourself that in the grand scheme of things it's a tiny part of their life and take a deep breath when things are going badly. Don't beat yourself up if the routine goes to pot. My advice is to look after yourself, i didn't and paid the price. Take time out for YOU - get DP/DH/mum/friend to look after bubs and have some me time so you'll have the energy to cope. Hope this helps, let us know how it goes!
Linds x
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Hi MLC, my LO is a queen at Mantra cries... I usually leave her be because I actually distract her more by having my presence there with her. I can tell now if she is not going to go to sleep and if that is the case, I always walk in (maybe if she has been mantra crying and protesting for about 10-15 mins) and put my hand on her chest (or roll her back over if she is on her tummy) and tell her that it is nap time and time to go to sleep. She usually smiles and giggles at me, so now I do this with a big smile on my face, but a firm voice. Usually this works, she may protest or mantra for another minute or two, but most of the time she goes to sleep. Also, if you LO is taking about 30 mins of babbling before going to sleep, this could indicate that she is undertired when you put her down?
If your LO is mantra crying, personally I wouldn't be doing the ssh/pat - especially if you think it won't work. It can also become a prop if you continue past the point that they need it - the main time to intervene is if she is crying the 'mummmy I need you' emotional cry.
When you ask if you should have done ssh/pat when your LO was crying hysterically, can I ask, how is she with usually self settling? Can she do it most of the time and only needs help when she has reflux or have you only just started with sleep training? Usually the answer would be yes, you should ssh/pat, but my personal thoughts are, we are the ones who knows what works best for our LO's. If they can self settle most of the time and only occasionally need help because of e.g. reflux, then sometimes you need to do what works best. however, if you find that you are rocking her to sleep most of the time - that is definitely AP and what she will need to get to sleep most of the time.
Does your LO fall asleep in her pram at all? Because my LO is so spirited, she finds it really difficult to fall asleep when we are out and about - which makes it tough to go out for a whole day. Even when she does fall asleep, it is generally for only 45 mins at the most. The only way I can get her to sleep is to BF her under a blanket/wrap with all stimulation blocked out - and this is only when she is really tired. Even then, it is touch and go if she will wake up when I put her back in her pram. I usually then cover the pram with the blanket so it still blocks everything out. Have you tried putting your LO to sleep at anyone elses house e.g. in a port-a-cot or on a bed?
Anyway, I hope some of that helps, Kerrie
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Hey everyone!
due to the 30 page rule I will be locking thread. please continue here!
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=125995.0