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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: MomofCharlie on October 02, 2007, 19:21:17 pm

Title: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 02, 2007, 19:21:17 pm
Hi,
I'm in a bit of a jam. My almost-6 month old DS wakes up every night around 4 am, and it takes more than an hour to get him back to sleep. He normally has a soaking wet diaper, so I have to change him. He's not crying, just awake. I've tried shh-pat, holding him til drowsy, etc, but nothing seems to work. The real jam I'm in is that, in order to get him back to sleep more quickly, like in 5 minutes, I've been bringing him into the spare bed with me til we wake around 7 (I know, I know! Bad, bad, bad.)

He's on a 4-hour EASY, is exclusively BF (about to start solids next week), but one of his naps is generally short (45 min), with the other one being 1.5 hours, then a 45-minute catnap around 5. I'm wondering if I should be moving him to only 2 naps a day and making A times longer than 2 hours? If so, what would this look like? It also often takes a really long time for me to get him to sleep for his nap, so maybe more A time is what he needs between sleeps??

Routine specifically looks like this:

E 7
A til 9
S til 11 (or if he wakes earlier, which he often does, quiet A)
E 11
A til 1
S til 3 (again, quiet A for early waking, which is again, often)
E 3
A til 5
S til 5:45
A (usually bath) til 6:30
E 6:30
bedtime 7
DF 11
then that darned 4 am waking.

Any suggestions? (aside, of course, from no longer bringing him to bed; I'm going to stop that a.s.a.p., if I can find the fortitude!).

Thanks in advance!
Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 03, 2007, 00:17:20 am
If you did nothing what would happen?  If he isn't crying I would suggest leaving him until he does.  He might supprise you and put himself back to sleep. 

By about 7 months most babies drop that evening cat nap so it is possible that he might be ready.  Have you tried increasing his A time in the morning to see how he does?  If you decide to do this I would do it very slowly and compensate with an earlier bedtime to avoid overtiredness.

I would certainly stop taking him into the bed with you as that will quickly become something he likes and thus thinks he needs.
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 03, 2007, 02:17:20 am
Hi, Myia,
If I do nothing, he starts to really fuss, and it eventually develops into a full cry. I'll see if increasing A time slowly makes a difference. I think maybe I"ll do a day or two of just strictly following his cues, to see what happens.

Re: bringing him to bed with me, I think he already likes it, and I have to confess, I like it, too, as he's so snuggly. Again, bad, bad, bad habit, I know.

How slowly do you suggest increasing morning A time? By 10 minutes/day or less or more? Why just morning A time, and not afternoon? How much should I be aiming for?

Thanks,
Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: acan on October 03, 2007, 02:23:59 am
Have you tried pushing your baby's bedtime back a little?  My little one did not sleep for the full 11-12 hours until around 7 months.  I used to put her to bed around 8:30 and she would wake around 6AM-unfortunately she is an early riser!  She goes to bed now around 7 now.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 03, 2007, 02:28:11 am
I would suggest adding 5-10 minutes at first to the morning and if that goes well do the same in the afternoon.  Watching his cues is a great thing to do. Often we get caught up in the routine/sch and miss things. Claire has taught me many a lesson when I decided to just watch her.   ::)
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 03, 2007, 13:15:52 pm
Acan, Myia, Thanks for your replies. We had the worst night ever last night: he was up for 3.5 hours! My DH was asking whether we should put him to bed a bit later, or even give him an hour of A time before his dreamfeed (which wouldn't make it a true DF any more). I'm adding 15 minutes to his A time this morning. So far, so good. He's showing me he's tired, so he's doing a bit of wind-down in his crib right now.

I have to admit I was at my wit's end last night, by hour #2. He'd quiet down, and as soon as I leave the room, arms start flailing, then the crying would start. I did what Tracey says in her book, not hovering over, going in only when he needs me, not when he's just kind of complaining, but once you've done that for three hours, it gets to be ridiculous. Unfortunately, I gave up and brought him into the spare bed with me again  :'(

Hopefully we'll see a difference in the coming days. I just know that he'll settle into whatever change I make, as he's a textbook baby, but it sure is difficult to know what to change, when to change it, and how to make the change. It's great that we have so much info on these boards, but it can be daunting and confusing, too.

Please wish me luck and send me good vibes. I'm so tired that I feel as though I could just cry. HOpefully my DS will go down for his nap rather easily; if not, I might cry along with him, which would be a first.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 03, 2007, 17:07:24 pm
HUGS AND SLEEPY VIBES~

I am so sorry last night was so bad.  I know how that feels and it really sucks!  Let me know how the day goes, ok?
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 04, 2007, 00:37:43 am
Well, today was ok. Our LO sprouted his first tooth just this past Monday, then his second this afternoon, so we've had lots of crying and fussiness. He had three naps today: first one was an hour, second one was an hour, third one was 45 minutes. He went to bed at 8 instead of 7 (mostly due to teething pain), so we'll see how tonight goes. Will post in the morning again. Thanks!!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 04, 2007, 00:52:15 am
You know I have said it a million times, I hate teeth! 
Are you using the gel?  It doesn't work for crap really but it does take the edge off just slightly so that the pain meds can kick in and work.  Poor guy.  I have read that teething is as painful as labor with no drugs!  :o :o  I hope tonight goes smoothly.
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 04, 2007, 13:24:05 pm
Hi, Myia,
Yes, we're using the gel in combo with pain meds. Second tooth is all the way out now... but... he was awake at 1:10 this morning, and again, after an hour of trying to get him back to sleep, I gave up and brought him to bed. Then he was wide awake at 5:30, so I just let him roll around and play with his hands & paci til 7. It's really hard to have him crying on and off at night for very long, as my DH is working full time and doing his PhD, so I feel really badly for him when we have bad nights like this. Can you (or anyone else reading this) suggest ways to try and get my DS back to sleep? I generally do sh-pat til he stops fussing, but then he starts back up again, sometimes as soon as I walk away, other times after a few minutes. I sometimes just sit in the rocking chair in his room waiting, because I know it'll start up again. I'm trying to extend A time, but our naps are so irregular that A time can really vary when I factor in wind-downs that sometimes can take 45 minutes. Our routine seems so regular some days, but entirely messed up others. ANd not just since the teething. I feel as though I'm always having to struggle and tweak things. Is this normal? OTher than the NWs, should I just accept that this is the way things will be? They're not terrible, but far from regular.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 04, 2007, 21:37:29 pm
It is normal to be tweaking a lot during the first year. There are so many, rapid fire, chages that it often does seem hard to keep up.  To be honest, I think the naps, and regulating them should be the first thing you do. It is amazing how strongly related day sleep is to night sleep.  Are the naps irregular because he just will not settle or does he wake up often during them?
You can try pu/pd for night wakings that aren't due to hunger or pain.  Are you familiar with that?
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Amandamom on October 04, 2007, 21:43:32 pm
I just want to say that I am going through this exact same thing with my 5 month old.  Last night she was up from 2:15 to 5:00!!!  I am wondering about A times and bedtimes as well.  I started weaning her off the paci last Friday so at first I thought that was the issue, but now I think it might be something else.  I posted below but no one has responded yet.  :-\   But I just want you to know that I know what you're going through!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 05, 2007, 14:48:01 pm
Amandamom, sorry to hear that you have the same problem... kind of nice to know I'm not alone, though.

Myia, I am familiar with the general concept of pu/pd from glancing at info on these boards. Should I do more reading and try it? The very few times that I do pick him up at night, he basically falls asleep about 5 seconds later, only to wake when I place him back in his crib.

His naps generally require a great deal of settling: a story, a song, place him in his crib, then he can take as little as 5 minutes to settle, or as long as 45 minutes. He waves his arms around madly. I swaddle him from below the arms, as a full swaddle doesn't seem to work with him. I used to try holding his arms down, but have given up. I now leave the room, let him do his thing, then once he starts to cry (which nearly always happens), I go in and sh-pat puts him to sleep pretty quickly. Although sometimes we have to repeat everything past the song a couple of times, like right now  :-\ 

He also tends to knock his paci out. I keep saying I'm going to wean him of it, but then other issues come up and take precedence. He only uses paci for naps.

I must admit that sometimes I feel as though I'm putting him down for a nap wide awake, and that all of this struggling is just to tire himself out so he can then go to sleep. I'm wondering whether I"m on auto-pilot, watching the clock rather than his cues. But it's so hard to tell sometimes. Argh!!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 06, 2007, 13:45:40 pm
Well, night # 1 of our concerted effort to improve NWs. He woke at 2:20; I got him back to sleep at 3:40. One hour and 20 minutes. Hopefully we'll see an improvement tonight.

Myia,I'm having a hard time deciding when to respond to my LO's cries. At what point does it cross the line between rescuing and responding? When he cries then pauses to make self-soothing noises (kind of a moan and a sucking sound), I leave him. But once he really gets a real cry on, I go in. I picked him up twice, just sh-patted the other times. Does that sound right??

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 06, 2007, 17:53:32 pm
That does sound right to me, Allison.  You want to allow him time to fuss and self soothe if he needs to but go in if he starts crying a more serious sounding cry without pauses.  I know it is tough to figure it out but the more you listen to his the clearer it will become when he really needs you.  You are doing a great job.   :-*
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 06, 2007, 21:52:06 pm
Thanks so much. It really is difficult to hear him cry so, as he never was much of a crier before. It's those pauses that I've been using as a cue that he is taking a few seconds to self-sooth, and possibly to see whether I"ll come in. Interesting. Hopefully tonight will go well. I've tried to get rid of the 45-minute catnap around 5 pm, but it's not working out. I'll have to play with the earlier part of our day, as he ends up being awake for about 5 hours the way things are falling right now. I've tried to keep him awake for longer than 2.25 hours, but he does his sleep cues right around that time; any more A time and he has a meltdown. :P

Hopefully tonight we'll be up for less than last night. Progress would do a great deal for my spirits!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 07, 2007, 01:04:30 am
Here's hoping for a progress night!
 :-*
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 07, 2007, 13:38:43 pm
I tried something entirely different last night. Maybe you can tell me whether it's a good idea or not. I skipped the DF at 11, so was able to get to bed nice and early. When our DS woke up at 2, I changed and fed him. He then went right to sleep on his own in his crib, no fussing at all. Is it a bad idea to start a night feeding over 2 months after we eliminated it? I feel as though I'm cheating, but it allows me to get to bed earlier, and might very well eliminate the over-an-hour long NW every night. What do you think??
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 07, 2007, 15:39:02 pm
Is he on solids yet?  There are some babies that genuinely do need a night feed at 6 months, not many but some.  I doubt he needs that feed but it could be that the dream feed was disturbing his sleep.  I would stick with what worked last night for a few days and really watch what/how much he eats during the day and how much he takes at night.  If a week goes by and he is up for that feed, eats well and then goes back to sleep we can work on upping his daytime calories and gradually weaning that one night feed.  Does that sound like a good plan?  I am sure that anything which allows you to be sleeping more sounds like a good thing, right? 

Don't feel as if you are cheating.  You are trying hard and being deliberate about what you do and how you handle things.  You and Charlie need good sleep in order to be able to work together.  Let me know how the next couple of nights go.
 ;D
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 07, 2007, 17:53:12 pm
Your kind words & encouragement really help me a lot. Thank you! We began solids 4 days ago, and he LOVES it. About 80% goes into his mouth and down his throat. I can't believe it's not messier than this (for now, I'm sure).

I will go ahead with this plan for a few days and see how it works out. I feel so much better today. For some reason, it really feels like the right thing to do, not just for my sleep, but for Charlie, too. He's been going through the night without a feeding since he was about 12 weeks old.

Anyhow, I'll post again in the coming days to let you know how it goes!! Thanks!

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Mama2boys on October 07, 2007, 21:19:40 pm
Hi there,

Read the bit about irregular naps..is that bad? My son refuse to be regular about his names...and I avoid waking him up for a meal but give him the closest meal as per routine whenever he wake sup...is that wrong?

It has been a bit of a pain because of his irregular naps I cant seem to take him out at any fixed time..also he is a touchy sleeper, if he falls asleep in the pushchair , he will wake up the moment I stop the pushchair or reach home or something. He is probably the only kid who does not fall asleep in a pushchair or car.

Anyways I am digressing..are irregular naps bad? The only thing thats has been working for getting him to nap happily is , to let him play till he gets tiered..stop stimulating him but let him play on his won, while I read to him or something once he starts looking tiered, and then as soon a she gets fussy, give him the pacifier and in the crib and he normally falls asleep...

thanks!
Mukta
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 08, 2007, 00:14:54 am
Mukta,
Good daytime sleep generally equals good night time sleep.  If you are having nap trouble you should post in the nap forum.  The girls there will really be able to help with nap specific questions.  Are you also having night waking trouble?
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 09, 2007, 19:58:21 pm
I'm sure you don't need details every day, but it feels better to write about our successes, so I'll do just that. Last night was wonderful. I "tanked" him up as Tracey suggested in her book, skipped the dream feed at my bedtime, went to bed nice and early. Our DS woke up around 2, so I BF'ed him, and he went right back to sleep. A little fuss around 6, with no help required, then slept til 7:30. Wonderful!!! Hope the trend continues. I don't mind the night time feeding at all, as I am lucky enough to be someone who goes back to sleep quite easily.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 09, 2007, 22:10:34 pm
Sounds great!  I hope it continues.

Oh and I certainly don't mind the daily progress reports, especially when they are good!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Mama2boys on October 10, 2007, 10:22:57 am
Hi Myia,

Night wkaing is not really been a problem ove rthe last few weeks and LO has improved a whole lot, he just is an irratic kind of guy. But that being said last few days have been an absolute diaster, he is refusing to sleep,

But thats is a whole different story for another board.

thanks!
Mukta
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 10, 2007, 17:13:34 pm
I am glad that nw isn't a problem right now Mukta!  At least you have that, right?  :)
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Mama2boys on October 11, 2007, 08:10:14 am
Hi Myia,

well NW was sorted out till last night....every 2 hrs he was up, and unhappy..i give up...:(
rough days, have had my in-laws over, a reorg at work, and a cranky baby and an overworked spouse! perfect!!!!

ohh and its cold and rainy!!!

eeeeeeeekkkkkkssssss!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 11, 2007, 14:18:41 pm
I can totally commiserate, mukta. Cold, rainy, my DS awoke 4 times last night, twice to be fed, which is odd for him. But he's about to turn 6 months, is teething, just got his shots on Tuesday, and we started solids last week. Lots of changes for such a little guy all at once! Hope you can plow through the day alright!  :-\

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 11, 2007, 17:03:12 pm
Mukta,
I am sorry to hear that.  Hopefully it is just a little blib because all that is going on.
 :-*
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 11, 2007, 19:19:15 pm
Thanks, Myia. I hope so, too. I can handle lack of sleep, but my DH has a hard time, esp. with work & school on top of each other. He doesn't fall back to sleep as easily as I do  :-[

I'm secretly afraid that by adding the feeding at 4 am, I've really messed things up. Only time will tell, I guess. DS is in a really great mood today, super easy-going, LOVING sweet potatoes, which I introduced today. So he's not bothered by teeth, vaccinations or anything today. We'll see how tonight goes.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Mama2boys on October 11, 2007, 23:21:19 pm
well done, so looks like there always is some light at the end of our tunnel!!! Here's to a new tomorrow..

lets see how tonigt goes, but DS did nap for three hours finally so hopefully the night should be better...fingers crossed!
Title: No better
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 15, 2007, 14:09:42 pm
Well, I've gone through a few nights since I last posted... I went back to the source, and re-read portions of The Secrets of the BW, then ordered and read most of The BW Solves all Your Problems, and am even more confused about what I should be doing. BWSAYP says for me to keep my hand on my LO until he falls asleep; I'd been told previously on other boards to let him settle himself. Either way, he's not settling well, easily or quickly.

Last night, he awoke at 3:15, crying, as he'd gotten himself all twisted up in his grobag and his head was up against the crib rails. So I gently moved him, he stopped crying, and I kept my hand on him, waiting for him to settle or even fall asleep. By 5:15, I had had it, mentally and physically. I took him downstairs, put him down on the area rug for a 5-minute timeout for myself, then breastfed him. He then went right back to sleep after taking an entire feeding, or very close to it. Tracy warns of getting a child into the habit of a night feeding, so I'm wary, but it did seem to satisfy him. Or did I just use myself as a pacifier? It's so unclear. We've started solids, sometimes he eats them vigorously, other times he seems less interested. Same goes for BF'ing now. SOmetimes he seems very eager, other times he's distracted and bobbing off. Please tell me whether this is normal, and whether you think I can solve these NWs by just feeding him. If so, I'll accept the way it is and move on. Otherwise, I'm going crazy, trying to extend naps (which are often only 30 minutes these past few days), trying to get him back to sleep at night for over 2 hours. I feel like nothing I do is working, and I've lost confidence in my ability to tell whether my child is hungry or in pain or just in a bad habit.

I had a good cry this morning with DH, who keeps telling me I'm doing a great job, but I feel as though I'm failing my LO somehow, by not providing (or even being able to figure out) what he needs, and by feeling frustrated as I did last night. I know my baby well, and am very attentive to him and conscious of him, but I just can't seem to read him at night. Maybe his messages are muddled through his exhaustion or my own.

Any advice, or commiseration, or even kind words to keep me sane??

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 15, 2007, 17:59:13 pm
Oh Allison,
First of all you are NOT failing your child.  Every mom feels like this occasionally and I am sorry to say that it doesn't stop.  :(  I still feel that way sometimes.  The thing with being a parent is that you are constantly being challenged. It is a tough job and it is REALLY tough when the person you are trying to help doesn't speak your language.  Imagine how much time and patience you would have to have if you were trying to help someone who spoke Hebrew...a lot.  It is normal to cry, lose patience and doubt your ability as a mother.  The simple fact that you are here, asking for help, trying to figure him out and help him means that you are a caring, loving and wonderful mother.  Really.  Go easy on yourself because you are doing a VERY hard job and you are doing it well even though there are times when you feel you aren't.  I mean that.

Ok, so onto the problems eh?

Tracy does say in her book to allow them to self soothe as much as possible.  I used help Claire and try to do less and less so that she could do more.  Keeping your hand there for assurance isn't bad. I would just try to remove it occasionally.  Sometimes I would put my hand on Claire and then when I noticed her breathing slow down I would take it away, if she squirmed or started to cry I would put it down on her and take it away quickly.  The key is to only do what he needs you to do.  There are MANY babies who are still taking a feed at his age.  Tracy does say that most babies can go without a night feed at 4 months but I promise you that there are many BW babies who eat overnight long after 4 months.  If you believe he would take a full or almost full feed and then go back to sleep until the morning, then I would do that.  He might be more apt to drop that feed once solids are really established. 

It is normal for babies his age to eat eagerly at some meals and seem to want to play during others.  He is starting to really want to interact with the world and I bet eating sometimes seems a bit boring compared to everything else he could be trying to get into. 

Hang in there Allison. You are doing great. 
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Amandamom on October 15, 2007, 21:50:43 pm

I had a good cry this morning with DH, who keeps telling me I'm doing a great job, but I feel as though I'm failing my LO somehow, by not providing (or even being able to figure out) what he needs, and by feeling frustrated as I did last night. I know my baby well, and am very attentive to him and conscious of him, but I just can't seem to read him at night. Maybe his messages are muddled through his exhaustion or my own.

Any advice, or commiseration, or even kind words to keep me sane??

Allison

This is exactly how I feel!!!  I am putting all of my energy into getting my LO to sleep and she still isn't so I feel like I must be doing everything wrong.  My husband just called me and when he asked how my day was I just started crying.  You're not alone, I completely understand how you feel.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 15, 2007, 23:53:08 pm
Oh, Myia and Amandamom!
Thanks so much. I've thought a lot today about what to do, and reading your message Myia reinforces what I suspect. I think he is hungry. I'll dreamfeed him tonight, then feed him again when he wakes around 3 or 4. I'm also going to try to feed him solids a bit sooner in the mornings, before he becomes too tired, and I'm also going to implement a lunch feeding of solids. When he's well-rested, he eats solids VERY eagerly. So my poor little bean has been hungry  :-\

I'm feeling much better about stuff. Today was a bit better. Only a half hour nap this morning, then he fell asleep while BF'ing, so I let him snooze for about 45 minutes, and it was as though he was reset. Had a good 1.25 hour nap this afternoon, no catnap, but lots of good eating.

Amandamom, hope things look up for the two of us. Any chance your LO is also hungry? As I mention earlier in this thread, I was worried about setting up a bad habit, but with my LO's new level of activity, I guess he needs it. Everyone tells us how long and slim he is (in 50th percentile, so very average), so maybe he'll fatten up now  ;D

Good evening. Thank you. And hoping for good sleeps for our LOs.

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Amandamom on October 16, 2007, 00:29:50 am
I'm glad your day was better.  My LO is not hungry at night, she was barely eating.  She slept 11 hrs straight last night, but had horrible afternoon and catnap today so we'll see what tonight brings.
I hope you have a good night!!!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 16, 2007, 00:58:51 am
Allison,
I would consider NOT doing the df and just feeding one time if he wakes.  Now, don't get me wrong here.  If he wakes, takes a full feed and goes back to sleep for the rest of the night..he probably needs the feed.  When he starts not taking a full feed then it will be time to make sure he isn't using you as a prop, ok?  I say that to make sure I am not sending you down the wrong path.

Also, does he go down independantly for naps and bedtime?  Make sure you are working on that in the mean time.

Hang in there sweetie.  6 months was a VERY hard time for me.  I really struggled some days just to remain sane.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 16, 2007, 01:29:31 am
OK. Will skip the DF then. Which means I can go to bed NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

I'll keep a close watch on whether he takes the full feed. I experimented with this last week, and he most certainly did take the entire feed every time. He sleeps during the last 5 to 10 minutes of the feeding, but he's definitely sucking and swallowing steadily, for his usual length of time.

He goes down independently for naps (improving all the time, actually), and at bedtime, I feed him right before, and more often than not, he falls asleep during that feed. I try to rouse him a bit so that he knows that he's going to bed. If he doesn't fall asleep during his feed, he goes to sleep the same as for a nap: with our routine, which is a story, a song, swaddle in crib during last refrain of song (Wild World by Cat Stevens, my BAD rendition), I tell him he's going down for a nice nap or for a good bedtime sleep, then I slowly leave. His eyes are open when I leave. Sometimes he rolls around and starts to really cry. I go in, re-swaddle him, and he's out within 5 minutes. Our routine used to be longer, but I've refined it so that it's a steady movement toward the crib, and he hasn't skipped a beat.

Thanks so much! Have a great night.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 16, 2007, 02:11:11 am
Myia,
Quick question: why skip the DF? If I'm DF'ing him and he's still waking in the night for a full feed, shouldn't I give him both? Just curious. Thanks. Going to sleep now. Really. Must keep off ebay. No more halloween costumes for my LO. 3 is enough.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 16, 2007, 17:14:50 pm
Well, sometimes the df can actually disrupt sleep in some babies and generally it does more harm than good at about 7 months so since he is 6 months I thought maybe you could give it a try. Also, by not doing the df you will probably ensure that he takes a good feed overnight instead of a coupld oz at the df and a few overnight.  This should help us gauge better what he needs and possibly work towards getting him to go all night for you.  Plus, like you said, not doing it will allow you to go to bed early if you choose.
 :)
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 16, 2007, 20:57:47 pm
Aha! I get it. Well, last night worked out well. No DF, he woke at 4:30 am, took an entire feeding, then fiddled in his crib for about 25 minutes before drifting to sleep til 7:30 am. I stayed outside his room til he was asleep, except the one time he lost his paci through the crib rails. It's nice to know that when he wakes up crying, it's for a purpose: to eat. Makes me feel better.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 17, 2007, 00:14:35 am
Keep me posted.  In the mean time work on really getting a good routine under control and get solids established so that you might be able to drop that feed.  Start slowly with them and post in the solid food forum if you need help/advice.

Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 17, 2007, 17:18:38 pm
OK. Thanks. Last night was rough: woke at 2:15, so I fed him, but then he woke again at 4:30, 5:15, then 6:15. We gave up trying to put him back to sleep around 6:30, as there was no point in working so hard for half an hour more. So sleepy today.............................
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 19, 2007, 13:28:33 pm
Things are improving.... the last 2 nights, Charlie woke up at 4 for a feeding the first night, then slept through. Second night, he woke at midnight, hungry, as his last breastfeeding went miserably at 7. He then slept til 4:30, but resettled himself in about 10 minutes: I didn't even get out of bed!!

I'm going to try W2S today to try and extend his naps. He's gone to 45 minutes for both of them. I just snuck in and roused him at the 30-minute mark. Not sure I roused him enough. Will go have a look at the W2S boards right now.

Cheers!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Amandamom on October 19, 2007, 14:08:05 pm
It sounds like things are improving for you!  That's great!!! :)
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 19, 2007, 14:39:26 pm
Thanks! First attempt at W2S: 1.5 hour nap!!! First one in a month. Maybe just coincidence... Will see. Hopefully will help NWs.
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 22, 2007, 17:24:28 pm
Great!  Keep us posted.
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: newmama12 on October 22, 2007, 20:29:26 pm
Mom of Charlie, Don't want to hijack your thread but my lo has been doing some very similar things as your lo during the night. (I posted a thread on this a little earlier today). She wakes to eat around 3am or so. She's hungry. Takes a full bf session. But then she won't go back to sleep, usually for 2-3 hours!  :o It's getting sooo out of hand and I am soo incredibly tired and very irritable with poor dh. What are you doing to help him sttn and then go back to sleep? My dd wants to go to sleep but whenever i put her back down (after rocking/holding her for a good 20 minutes) she wakes right up. Or within 5 mintues of me laying her down. She will fuss and then it'll be a full screaming fit until I go back in there and re-rock/hold her. We play this game for hours till she's finally so exhausted she doesn't wake when I put her down. Today's been awful. She's only napped for a total of 30 minutes and it's almost 4pm!  >:( Plus, she was up for 2.5 hours in the middle of the night. She's been doing this every night for 6 weeks straight. I have NO idea what to do. I am so at a loss. Please! Anyone!
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 22, 2007, 21:39:52 pm
Dear newmama12,
I know exactly what you're going through: we were there a couple of weeks ago. What's happening now is that he wakes only once in the night, takes a whole BF, then is going right back to sleep. Not sure what I can attribute it to, but the changes I've made are:
1. I'm using W2S to extend his naps, which had become only 30 to 45 minutes. W2S is working about 80% of the time, as long as I catch him before he wakes on his own, and is extending naps to about 1.5 hours, sometimes a bit more.
2. After I BF him, which I have to do all the way downstairs in our family room due to logistical reasons, he's not always asleep. I used to do the battle that you're doing. I now sing his bedtime/naptime song to him (same one all the time) on our way up the stairs, I hold him in the rocking chair (but not rocking) for about 4 minutes, then put him down in his crib. Not sure if it's this new way of putting him down that's working, or the better naps, but he'll fidget a bit, sometimes for up to 20 minutes, but no crying. So I hide at the doorway listening, and he drifts off. Some nights within 2 minutes, other nights it takes longer. But there is no screaming or crying.

As I said above, I don't know which thing has made this change, or maybe it's a developmental thing, but our nights have been peaceful ever since. Oh, I almost forgot: I eliminated his dream feed. Miya told me earlier in this thread that for some LOs, it disrupts them rather than helps them. It seems pretty clear to me that this was indeed the case with mine.

HTH... keep in touch. You're not hijacking! THat's what this is all for!

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: newmama12 on October 23, 2007, 01:15:33 am
Thank you for the tips. Maybe I'll start trying W2S again. I tried it a couple times months ago but it never worked. She always woke up when I did it. She seems to be a very light sleeper, so I'm not so sure it'll work. She too has always taken 45 minute naps. I have to try and get in 3-4 during the day, otherwise, she's a royal crab. Occasionally, she'll do an hour nap, and on rare occasion 1.5 -2 hours. But normally, they're 45 minutes.

I really don't mind getting up to feed her during the night, but I really don't understand why she won't go back to sleep unless I hold her for hours. Plus, neither one of us really sleeps well when she sleeps on me, so I try and only do that as a last resort. She doesn't sleep more than an hour at a time when she sleeps on me. I mean..she's fully fed, dry diaper, etc. Last night she actually fell into a deep sleep after I fed her. I laid her down, she didn't even budge. I thought "wow!" things are changing. But then, 20 minutes later, there she goes...crying again. Then up for another 1.5 hours. She never use to do this so I'm quite at a loss as to what's going on. She's never been a great sleeper, but she was sttn until she got a cold 6 weeks ago. That messed up her sleeping rythms and ever since then we've had this issue. Her naps were still just 45 minutes and she was sttn. One other theory (per my pedi) is she's not getting enough calories during the day. She was 14lbs 4oz at her 6 month check up last week. Dr has me feeding her more often during the day and solids 2-3 times to help up her weight. Maybe that will help get her throught the night if she's not hungry. I don't know. All I know is that I'm at a breaking point and something has to be done to help all of us. :(
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 23, 2007, 12:55:19 pm
I can "hear" in your posting that you're at your wit's end. I think having your LO sleep on you is the equivalent of what I was doing, which was bringing my LO into the spare bedroom and sleeping with him the rest of the night. I stopped cold turkey, and we had one miserable night, then they got better. Other moms on this site have kept telling me to sort out my DS's naps, and that everything else would come together. To be honest, I couldn't see how that would happen, but I have a suspicion that it's his consistently longer naps that have improved our nights.

I'm rather new at all this, so you might want to get some help from more experienced Whisperers, but the only advice I can give is to concentrate on the naps, maybe try W2S again. Go back to basics, observe naps for a couple of days to make sure you're going in at the right time. If your LO is a light sleeper, maybe just hte sound of her door opening will suffice. That's what does it sometimes for mine. I barely have to touch him, and I don't do it to the extent that his eyes open. He just stirs the slightest bit, and that does the trick. So go more lightly, once you establish the right time to go in. And if you have the fortitude to do it (which I didn't at first), stop letting her sleep on you at all.

It also helped me to go back and re-read the sections of Tracy's books (Secrets of the BW and BW Solves all your problems) pertaining to W2S, naps, night sleep, etc. It allowed me to take a step back and go back to basics.

Let us know how today/tonight go.

Miya or Bryony, do you have any advice for newmama12? Is what I've written above appropriate? I've never given advice on these boards before, just gladly accepted it.

Thanks,
Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 23, 2007, 17:14:47 pm
Allison, you advice is great, I totally agree.

Newmama, first of all, hugs.  I do think you should really work on daytime sleep as it is so strongly linked to nighttime sleep.  I also think allowing her to sleep on you and using props and accidental parenting only makes life harder for the two of you.  She needs to learn to sleep on her own. It's hard to be consistant but the more consistant you are the less time it will take to get things on track.
Myia
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: newmama12 on October 23, 2007, 17:28:29 pm
Thanks everyone for the advice!

Last night was ok. She went to bed at 7:15ish. Woke at 11pm (which she rarely does). She cried and wouldn't go back to sleep for anything. So, we gave her a 4 ounce bottle which she gulped down like she was starving and then went to sleep within the hour. Woke again at 2am, couldn't rock her back to sleep and she was screaming. Gave her another 4 ounce bottle and she took the whole thing like she was hungry and went to sleep within the hour. Note: neither time did she wake back up and need me to rock her. Then up at 6:30am.

So, we have some theories here:
1. She really is hungry and wants to eat
2. The thing I did differently last night was not to bf her. I know...weird, but sometimes my bm bothers her tummy. I supplement, as well, and she's on Lactofree formula. Was that the issue?? Don't really know.
3. She's waking, not really hungry, but is eating to self-soothe

How do I re-teach her to soothe herself? She does rely on the pacifier, but we can't take that away now. One issue at a time or else she'll totally freak! She use to suck her thumb, but for some reason won't do it anymore. I think it's cause she's teething and when she puts her thumb in her mouth she just chews on it.
So, when she's having a fit in her bed if she can't find her pacifier(s) she gets even more upset. I know it's a prop, but at this time, I don't think we can part with it. She has always liked to suck on it since birth.

Today is going so-so. She went down for her morning nap on time, but woke herself at the 30 minute mark and she was up. I didn't even get a chance to try W2S...she woke herself up! Now she's been down for 30 minutes, so we'll see how it goes. Oh...she's moving...Let me see if she'll reset her clock herself! Be back soon!
 

Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 23, 2007, 17:45:33 pm
Sorry, Myia, I just realized that I was spelling your name incorrectly  :-X

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: momofclaire on October 24, 2007, 00:09:00 am
No worries!  You certainly aren't the only one.  ;)
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: MomofCharlie on October 25, 2007, 23:38:22 pm
I hope I'm not jinxing anything by writing this message... our NWs have vastly improved over the past 2 weeks. I've been working on extending naps with W2S: works sometimes, not others. I've eliminated the dreamfeed, and I feed my LO when he wakes, which is every night, sometime between 1 and 4:30 am. But I now put him straight back into his crib, and he goes to sleep peacefully til 7 or 7:30. No more bringing him into bed with me, and no more crying and crying before falling back to sleep (him, not me!). It's quite wonderful. Maybe he's just turned a corner developmentally, or maybe the combination of everything above has just come together nicely..

I do have one question, though: at what point does that night feeding become habit rather than necessity? As it is now, he takes an entire feeding, rather enthusiastically, so I know he's hungry. Plus, he hasn't eaten since about 7 pm, so it makes sense that he needs food. I don't mind the night feeding, but I don't want it to become a problem later...

Thanks!

Allison
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Colin Macs Mom on October 25, 2007, 23:58:44 pm
Take a peek here -

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87815.0
Title: Re: 6 month old awake (WIDE awake) at 4 am, every night!
Post by: Amandamom on October 26, 2007, 02:57:32 am
Allison--
I'm so glad to hear that things are getting better for you!!!  :D