Author Topic: Support for Raising Spirited Babies  (Read 95028 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline maman_d_emily

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 122
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2007, 21:31:20 pm »
Amanda, my dd was doing the same thing (crying as I was going into the room or all through the ritual).  After some time, I've started to give relax time before bed, either for naps or bedtime, with the pacifier I would rock her while she looks at me.  I do that outside the room and then go in the room, put her in the crib and give her the blankie.  It took us a while but she now settle without crying but can play a bit in her crib, specially at bedtime.  It went good after she took the pacifier again.  I not sure about the white noise playing, I don't know if it's too much for a spirited baby or maybe it can help.   It took us 2 months for her to accept to go to bed, but I'm not sure if it was because of lack of proper ritual, too OT, because she needed to suck to sleep but wouldn't take the pacifier (she was use to fall asleep on the breast before I've learn of EASY) or was it only her young age and spirit part.  I personnaly think that the pacifier was the saver!

For your questions: one: you can move her in her bedroom/crib now and the sooner the better.  You don't want the baby to get accustomed to sleeping in your room.  My dd was sleeping in her own bedroom/crib at night since coming at home from the hospital and did always good at night.  But the problem was that I was only putting her in her bed after she was sleeping,  that did cause us problem. :-[   Questions 2: Don't worry about sleeping on her side, SIDS is only more frequent if they sleep on their stomach.  You can put wedge but it is more likely that she will roll on her back if she move because her arms and legs will be in the way and will prevent her to roll unto her stomach at her age.  My daughter always sleeps on her side since day one and love it.

Julie, hang in there.  Don't forget that they tend to relapse to the bad habit after some time and you have to try again.  I've seen your post on EASY, did you try to give him less food at night?  Did it help?  Are you letting him sleep on the bottle/breast?  To help him not associate eat to sleep, don't let him sleep on bottle/breast and make sure to have some time in between the feed and putting him to bed.  Does anybody else have suggestions?

Annie
<img src="http://b2.lilypie.com/YTvVm3.png" alt="Lilypie 2nd Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline mom of malakai

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 44
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2007, 00:49:44 am »
Hi Annie. Thanks for the support. Tried less food at night. Worked for one day, I was up alot to do it, and don't have the energy to continue. Mom in law is staying over next Thurs to see if she can help me stay up with him to get him through the night on less sleep. We'll see what happens then. He falls asleep on the bottle (something that I found out - while I was sick and others were caring for him they put him to sleep with the bottle, so that's where he got the idea!) I have been trying to pull it out when he starts to fall asleep and he usually wakes up and fusses so I put it back in and we do this until he is either asleep or finished his bottle. Is this a good idea? Should I do this at night too. If so, will I run the risk of him waking more (if that's even possible)? I have tried giving it to him earlier, but he wont take any then and will wait until it's time to sleep. He will sometimes take a little downstairs before we start his sleep routine. Any ideas on how to get him to take a full feed here?

Julie

Offline jenandben

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 49
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2007, 03:57:54 am »
Hi Annie-
Yes, the doctor prescribed Zantac for Ben's reflux.  We take it twice a day.  It seems to be working alright, but we still have grumpy late afternoons/evenings.  I wonder if taking care of his overtiredness will help with this too.

I've been keeping track of our schedule for almost a week.  At first I was automatically trying to push my own 3 hour EASY routine, and day 1 went very well!  Days 2 and 3 were miserable, though.  So, then I just wrote down what we did on a day when Ben took the lead.  It looked like this: (Ben had gone to bed around 9:30 the night before)

E  3 AM
S  3:45  (2h 45 m but part of night time sleep)
E  6:30
A  7:30
S  8:00  (30m)
E  8:30
A  8:45
E  10:00
S  10:45  (1h 5m but was up 3 times and needed to be moved from bed to swing)
E  12 PM
S  1:30  (2h 20m but only if I didn't put him down)
E  3:50
A  4:20
S  6:50  (20m)
E  7:10
A  7:35
S  9:30  (down for the night again)

Talk about crazy!  Then, today, I let Ben lead again, but I watched even more closely for his signs thinking I'd probably missed some the day before.  We ended up following a pretty good EASY routine, but check out my sleep times.  I had to break the prop rules to get him to sleep during the day: (Ben went to bed at 9:00 the night before)

E  2:15 AM
S  2:45
E  5:45
S  6:00
E  8:00
A  8:15 (30 m wind down)
S  9:00  (Oops, we fell asleep on the couch together.  That's why it lasted so long.)
E  12:00 PM
A  12:30  (45 m wind down)
S  1:30  (in his bouncy chair...no bouncing or vibrate, though)
E  3:15
A  3:45  (45m wind down with tummy medicine)
S  4:30 (in carrier)
E  5:15
A  5:45 (lights out activity in his chair, then 15 m wind down)
S  7:00 (in carrier)
E  7:45
A  8:30  (30m wind down)
S  9:30 (in bed for the night)

For the first schedule I tried to follow all of BW guidelines about sh/p and letting baby put himself to sleep.  It really didn't work very well- there was no pattern to our routine that day, because he cried through wind down and into the following eating times.  I'm not sure he can put himself to sleep yet.  I don't think his reflux helps either. 

For the second schedule I let him fall asleep in my arms every time.  So, which is more important?  Which should I establish first?  The routine or the sh/p independence technique.  For sanity's sake, I'd like to get the routine down (I still do the same wind down routine), then work on getting rid of his props, because I know he already has some.  What are your thoughts?
Thanks for your help! Jen



Offline benandmichelle

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 306
  • Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2007, 06:34:33 am »
Hi Jen,

I would DEFINATLY say personally that the sh/pat is much more important. The sooner we all stop trying to get a routine under control, the better. My LO is almost 4 monhts and try and try as I did to get a routine, I can only now see glimers of hope. He is going down easier now but still some naps are short and erratic. I don't know if it was all the comforting and sh/patting and swaddling that I did from week 6 but I would like to think my efforts there are paying off a little. You ultimately can't make him do what you want when you want as he is still so young but having said that sleep training is something that he will start getting eventually and then the routine will come.
Although we are far from on a perfect EASY I can really say that the advice that mothers with older LO'S give here is really true: it DOES get better and it is really best to just go with it. Everyone says sleep starts getting better between 4 and 6 months (providing you make an effort too which you are) and honestly I believe it.
Maybe go over to the reflux board and chat to them too. They are are experts on it. I have posted there as well and it seems that trying to get EASY going is like smashing ones head against a wall until reflux is under control. I would wait a bit for the MEDS to start working, try to keep him upright after feeds for at least 30 mins and try elevating cot and pram so he isn't lying flat. Remember: he is crying from frustration of not veing able to get to sleep and discomfort from the acid.

You sound like me....a perfectionist and I went into this motherhood thing with all intentions to 'get it right' but I know now it just doesn't work like that.
I think your Ben is only 7 weeks right? Still soo young. Don't even worry about props yet. Maybe try at all costs not to let him fall asleep in your arms too much but I would say try swaddling and a dummy. Annie - I sooo agree with you about the dummy. Has saved us until now although I will wean in the next little while.

 Jen, just do what you have to do to get him to sleep and keep sh/patting too or try just a firm hand on his back and chest. See what works for Ben. You still need time to get to know what works for him and if that means a few 'mistakes' along the way then so be it. You sound like an aware and intelligent mother so don't worry...there is plenty of time in a month or 2 or even 3 to change things and remove props etc...

Hope I have said at least something to maybe help and haven't repeated anything anyone else has said (didn't read the whole thread! ;)

You are doing a fantastic job! We all are....

Michelle

The simplest and most obvious cause which can there be assigned for any phenomena, is probably the true one. (David Hume, 1737)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline jenandben

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 49
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2007, 10:18:52 am »
Hi Michelle,  so you think I should work hardest on his sh/p wind down?  If I follow the rules: swaddle, paci (which is already a prop for him), sh/p until droopy eyed, then bed; he'll scream the entire time!  We miss feedings because he's still awake and fighting.  It's the putting him down that wakes him right up.  I've even tried continuing the sh/p like Tracy talked about, but his eyes still pop open and stay open with screaming if I put him down awake- always have.

I already use the other reflux suggestions you made.  It's pretty much under control already.  He's finally sleeping during the day again, albeit sporadically.

I think I didn't mean "establish a routine" as one of my choices.  I meant watch Ben closely and follow his lead, but take it easy on the sleep guidelines.  So our day my look like ESESAEASESAES (a mess), but it goes smoothly.  If you still think I should stick to the guidelines, how do I handle the crying for an hour to and hour and a half during wind down and into the next feeding?  Will it only be like that for a day or two?

Offline benandmichelle

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 306
  • Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2007, 10:58:52 am »
Hi Jn,

I so know where you are coming from. Been there too. Definatly put effort into all of those things you mentioned. I am only a couple of months ahead of you experience wise but I have to sayit is just a matter if sticking it out till it finally starts sticking...which it sometime will. I know it is pure hell the crying for hours and hours but try to be strong and stick to your guns. I don't know what type of person you are but I am pretty sensitive and tend to ge tvery emotional. I used to cry often and thought I was losing the plot.  It is only in the last 4 weeks or so that I have found the strength to be calm and know that I am in control and doing the right thing........at about the same time I also noticed that I was FINALLY understanding Ben's cues better and somehow after months of confusion....I knew what he wanted and when he was tired etc.... And around that time too....naps started drastically improving with less crying and him falling asleep by himself (sometimes....and when not PU/PD works well) Shhh pat is too overstimulating for us now and he is physically too strong and fights and rolls around. But for you: persist with sh/pat for now.
Anyway, hope you are NOT as emotional as me and can handle it better. I know it is pure hell when your LO just WILL NOT SLEEP DESPITE ALL YOUR EFFORTS but just try to be strong and do what Tracy sugests if you can which is to spend the ENTIRE nap time in the crib trying to settle and when feeding time comes then get him up. Having said that (which is the 'correct' thing to do), at 7 weeks I couldn't deal with itand would get him up with the attitude that I would just try again in 20 mins or so and if he didn't want to sleep just go with it. It depends how much your patience/fuse is really.
I would love to say a day or 2 but from my personal experience it has taken the best part of 4 montzhs and been a VERY long process. All I can say is it WILL happen but when is anyones guess but it really won't be long now. You are more than half way through the  stage for sure.  :)

You will find too that you will suddenly in the next month or so just somehow know what he wants/needs.

Just keep doing waht you are doing....I am living proof that there is hope...I promise you!

HUGS

Michelle
The simplest and most obvious cause which can there be assigned for any phenomena, is probably the true one. (David Hume, 1737)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline maman_d_emily

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 122
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2007, 10:59:48 am »
Hi,

I'm up early today.  I think my dd is going through her 6 months growth spurt and for 2 night she woke up around 1-2 am for a feed but yesterday she didn't wake up for her usual feed around 5-6am but today she did.  Since she ate at 1:50am, I was pretty sure she was not hungry but more habitual waking.  I tried to have her go back to sleep but after some time, I gave up and I tried to give her a feed at 5:45 but she wasn't eating, just using the breast as a pacifier so I quickly stop her and back with pacifier and blankie and in the crib, it took some time but she's asleep.  The problem now is I can't sleep no more (I'm not a good sleeper so being up at 5:30 for 30-40min, I can't sleep after).   :'(  Oh well, might as well do something fun  :P   Not to worry, this is only a temporary problem (I hope).  She was doing so well,  going through all night in some days  :'(  Ah well, we'll be back to normal in a couple of days, I hope.

Julie, I'm sorry to say but I think that giving him the bottle in bed and letting him fall asleep on the bottle has made your problem worse.  Now he wakes up because he doesn't have the bottle in his mouth and won't sleep unless he has it, this is also true for the night.  I know you had problem before at night but for some days, you seem to be getting better but then he started to eat less in the morning because of the night feed and then you fed him later and somebody gave him the bottle to the crib.  Babies like to suck so obviously he likes that but he is too young to put the bottle back in is mouth if he wakes up. You'll have to stop that if you want him to sleep better, maybe tried the pacifier instead.  You might have to put the pacifier back again if he wakes up but at least he won't expect a feed and will take less time to put the pacifier then to give him a feed.  When I told you to tried to make sure that he doesn't feed before bed, I really want to say to make sure he doesn't fall asleep on it.  So for now, if he only want the bottle before going to bed, give him the bottle at that time but make sure he doesn't fall asleep on it.  Do whatever you have to do so he doesn't sleep with the bottle, sit him, rob his back, take the bottle out of his mouth if he sleep.  As soon as he wakes up, give him back his bottle, but do the same process everytime he fall asleep with the bottle.  Then after the feed is finished, do your sleep ritual (but he might be asleep by then)  and give him the pacifier and maybe a blankie to sleep.  He can't get a bottle but he will be able to get the blankie. Trust me, I had to do this for my dd at 3 months, because she was use to sleeping on the breast but she wouldn't take the pacifier before her 5 months and everything improve at that time. For the night, I didn't do all that because you don't want to wake him up by all this rubbing, sitting, taking off the bottle.  Just feed him at night, and then back to bed with pacifier and blankie.  Then after you can work to have feed, then activity and sleep.  Sometimes, my EASY looks more like AEAS and this is good as long as the baby doesn't associate eat to sleep.  I know this is hard on you because it's hard on every mom but must be extra hard on you with MS, you also need your rest.  The rest is important to you as not to make you worse, so use up all the help from your family and friend but put your rules on them so that they don't make it worse for you when they leave.  Let me know how it goes.  Lots of hugs for you.

Jen, I agree with Michelle about letting your baby learn to sleep by himself but still the routine is really important.  I used to have Emily feed everytime she wakes up and really stick to the order of EAS and this was not working, like you seem to do.  You need to think more like putting in place the eating aspect, so let's say every 3 hours and stick to every 3 hours during the day.  Then you include A and S, just make sure that you have some A times in between E and S, even if it's just 5 min.  At least that way, Ben won't associate eating to sleeping.   Your routine will probably look more like EASAEAS, mine always do and it's fine like that.  The first routine you wrote down, Ben was eating too often, so no good feed.  The second one was better.  Was he only sleeping in that position or was any music, swinging or were you walking with him with the stroller for him to fall asleep or was it only the position that make him fall asleep?  If it's more the position, then maybe the reflux is still bothering him and you might want do as Michelle as suggested for the reflux and maybe talk to the reflux board, and maybe he need to be seated to sleep for some time.  My thoughts is nothing wrong with him sleeping in a seating position, just put what you use to sit him in his room if you can't get the crib to adjust to a good seating position.  If it's not related to the reflux, then do as Michelle said, have him sleep in his crib with pacifier, sh/pat.  Don't forget they need to suck and pacifier is great for that need.  Don't worry about getting use to the pacifier, my dd only started to use it back at 5 months and she sometimes don't want it for sleep now, she prefer her blankie.  Also, tried not to let him fall asleep on you.  I would work both (routine and independent sleep) at the same time.  I think you have more a problem for your routine as you think more of it as a strick EAS like I use to, so think of it more like any variation of  EAS, EASAEAS. I think he is able to go 3 hours in between feed.  Also, I think it would be better to make sure he doesn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time during the day.  Let me know how it goes. 

Both of you are doing a great job! 

Annie
<img src="http://b2.lilypie.com/YTvVm3.png" alt="Lilypie 2nd Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline benandmichelle

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 306
  • Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2007, 11:11:31 am »
Thanks Annie....you too! And what a little cutie Emily is! I totally second what you said about the eating. If all else fails Jen, just make sure he is eating at the right times according to the right EASY (2-2 1/2 hours) I know it is tempting to think 'well what now....no sleep...ok let's feed again' but try try try not too unless he really has genuine hunger.

Hmmmm.all easily said :(

Good luck....gotta go and tend to him

Michelle
The simplest and most obvious cause which can there be assigned for any phenomena, is probably the true one. (David Hume, 1737)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline maman_d_emily

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 1
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 122
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2007, 17:36:24 pm »
oops, I've just realise, Michelle and Jen, that you had time to post before I had to push the button post but it still make sense.  Thank you Michelle for your comment about Emily, your Ben is pretty cute too.  Anyway isn't 7 weeks be able to do at least 2.5-3 hours between feed.  Should check that Jen since your are BF, it is important to make sure he is really hungry enough as to make sure he does it the really good stuff at the end (hind milk I think it is name).  I might not be able to come and see how everybody is going before 36 hours from now since I have party, people coming at home.

See you
Annie
<img src="http://b2.lilypie.com/YTvVm3.png" alt="Lilypie 2nd Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline jenandben

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 49
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2007, 18:29:24 pm »
Thanks for the great advice, guys!  Ben  slept 11 hours last night!!  So, we had a later start this AM.  Woo hoo!  I'll keep you posted about how things go for the next few days.  Today's routine looks like EASAS so far.  We'll see how it goes for the rest of the day.
Thanks! Jen

Offline hannahbanana

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 5
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 330
  • Hannah 10 1/2 months
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2007, 18:47:24 pm »
You might consider whether or not you are putting him down in his crib too soon.  My DD started the screaming around 6-7 weeks.  I didn't realize that the first yawn did not mean bedtime!  I had to wait for little tired whimpers.  Also, consider starting reading to Ben, in order to have a longer wind down routine.  The screaming/fighting sleep, for us, was because she wasn't ready--not because she didn't like to sleep (she was always good at night).
<img src="http://b1.lilypie.com/2HPHm7.png" alt="Lilypie 1st Birthday Ticker" border="0"  />

Offline jenandben

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 49
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2007, 20:04:12 pm »
We'll try that.  It's hard once the screaming starts to remember that Ben isn't trying to fight sleep.  He's just not ready for sleep.  You say your lo started screaming around 6-7 weeks.  When did she stop?  OR Has she stopped? :)

Offline RACHPEM

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 5
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 1016
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2007, 17:29:17 pm »
Hi I am new to this board and as a 1st time mother of a 9month old spirited baby am glad to read I am not alone!  REading some of your posts is like so uncanny, Maya also fights naps to the extreme if not at home and in the dark! and we also have had the problem of 13 and 13.5hrs sleep at night because of refusal to nap in the day, early bedtimes (my family think it is hilarious, that she is in bed by 5pm some days!) and of course then early starts to the day.  I am so drained and to top it off my niece has just had a baby girl (8wks) and she sleeps all the time and has been sleeping through since 6 wks!! I love my lo with all my heart but she breaks it sometimes.  After months of trying to get her into a routine I am still no nearer, did any of you find being spirited they needed less A time than recommended? as for the last 3 days ( big achievement believe me!) I have found when she has had 12hrs she is ready to go back down after 2hrs 45mins and I have had more success with the 2nd nap if I keep the A time less also.  Her tired signs are impossible to read.  After months also of being guaranteed her falling asleep at bedtime with sheer exhaustion and staying asleep we are now battling with bedtimes and frequent NW.
I just find my days are so long with Maya as she is never happy (due to OT) she grumps all day and I frequently wonder if I could have done anything different while pregnant or since although even the nt she was born she cried all night long.  She is so miserable and cant be left alone to play for 5 mins it really is exhausting keeping her occupied, I feel like it is my fault she is not happy which depresses me so.    Anyway I best go.
Rachael xxx
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 17:44:59 pm by RACHPEM »

Offline jenandben

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 2
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 49
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2007, 05:37:17 am »
Hi Rachael,  I'm glad you found the group too.  You are definitely not alone!  My ds is at the 7 week mark and is supposed to start smiling any day now.  He seems so grumpy, though, (probably from OT) that I often wonder if his first smile at me will be delayed.  I wonder if he ever feels happy enough to smile which is just heartbreaking.

 I've found much help here, mostly encouragement to get my babe to bed more often.  We've been working on it for a few days, and he seems like a much more content baby.  Something that's helping us...during wind down, Ben seemed to be unable to close his eyes to even blink.  He just looked wired, because he couldn't break his concentration from his surroundings.  Ive been draping a light blanket over my shoulder when sitting with him before naps like a nursing shawl.  So, his vision is blocked.  (I know Tracy wrote about using your hand to shield their eyes, but Ben would either become excited by looking at the lines my fingers make or would frantically try to look "around" my hand.)  He calms much more quickly and accepts sleep more willingly!  Even when I take it off before laying him down, his attention has been refocused from the world to sleep.  He melts right to sleep.  Mind you, I still have to time everything right to meet his wind down rhythm.

Anyway, welcome!

-Jen

Offline violetmum

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 11
  • Location:
Re: Support for Raising Spirited Babies
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2007, 17:22:53 pm »
Hi everyone,

For all the moms of the little ones ... have you tried a swaddler that stays closed with velcro? I know Violet still managed to wrangle her little hands out of it, but it did help. It kept her arms close to her body and made it much easier to move her when she was sleepy or asleep. We weren't trying the BW techniques then, but we tried everything else. (Even the props don't work with Spritied LOs!) Rachel, my LO was awake and unhappy for the first 23 of her 24 hours of life. (Don't believe that nurse when she tells you the baby will drop off for a good long sleep!)

An update ... our best days have been those when Violet gets up at 6:30am, and I follow a 4-hour EASY pretty strictly throughout the day. It has helped a lot to stop schlepping her all over town to reduce her overstimulation. She's now taking three naps (yahoo!), but she'll usually cut the morning or afternoon nap short. What should I do? It sometimes helps to go back in and shush-pat her back to sleep. Other times, she still seems tired, but she won't drop off again. Do I leave her in the crib? Get her up and keep the activity really low key? She'll do the "hey you, come get me cry" pretty continuously if I just leave her there. Could this just be her pattern?