Am getting desperate! Please help me!

[Mashi]

Good luck Lucy, sorry I wasn't able to help out at all. We are back with out EWs as well and I am having the same issue as you - no matter how late and how short that AM nap is, he still wakes at 530, AND I can't consistently get any decent PM nap in as he's either UT or OT and I can't ever tell which.

So, am watching this thread to see how you get on and then will see about going for the same thing myself!

[LucySol]

i turn on my computer and ther are so many messages of support! You guys are gr8-you really keep me going!
Mashi-this is my last hope,i have tried everything else!

Alexa;here is what has happened today;  she was very restless thru the night and i heard her wake and moan several times.She eventually woke at 4.50am so today i fed her cos im sure she was hungry.She had  a big feed and i then managed to get her back to sleep till 5.50am.
so i did the first nap at 9.00-9.20 in the car.
She woke up very happy and chatty and was doing gr8 till lunchtime and she got very whingy in her chair and started rubbing her eyes.so i took her to start her WD.She was asleep for 12.05.She slept till 1.05 and woke really crying-i knew she was still tired so i patted her back to sleep and she went back to sleep till 1.30 when she woke singing and chatting.
im wondering if i read her wrong at 12.00 and if i had just taken her out of her chair and changed the scenery she could have handled a bit longer.Normally when Daisy is ready for bed when i start WD she quickly cuddles up and closes her eyes.She didnt do this today and once i started WD she was looking around chatting away,and it took a good 5-10 mins for her to go to sleep.im wondering if i had held her out longer she would have done longer? Maybe 12.30? What do you think? i think i was so on edge and watching her so closely so she didnt get OT i put her down at the first sign.

so 1.30 wake up i have a long time to get to bedtime.i dont want to push her too much and im not sure she will last much longer than 6pm.i then have to hope that she doesnt have an even earlier wakeup due to the early bedtime?

im off out tonight with some friends for a meal to have a break.im really hoping that D isnt OT by bedtime or else DH will have a bad evening on his hands!Last time i went out i got a phonecall from a very distressed dh for me to come home cos D was screaming and he couldnt settle her!

[~Alexa~]

I don't think you read her wrong at 12 pm.  If she woke up crying after 1 hr, then she must have been tired.  So, I think you did the right thing by putting her down at 12 pm.

I think she should be fine with a 6 pm bedtime. This early bedtime is only temporary, and let's keep our fingers crossed for tomorrow morning, but, I would try to go for a walk and do something very very relaxing so Daisy lasts till 6 pm.  When I have a short nap and a long way to go till bedtime, I usually go for a walk in the pram.  This really helps Patrick relax and doesn't get OT nor OS.  If he is crawling and cruising during all his A time, he gets really tired.  The same goes to Daisy.  Try to have a looong walk with her in the pram.  Ask your DH to go for a walk with Benjamin and Daisy so she can relax and doesn't get OS nor OT. 
If she does get an EW tomorro, at least we will be sure she is not OT so we can start pushing the day back, iykwim?

I've been reading my notes about Tracy's books, and I just re-read that Tracy recommends PUPD for the EW.  I know you don't like to use PUPD with Daisy, but if she is waking up crying in the early morning, then try wiwo/pupd for getting her back to sleep. 

Lucy, if you think Daisy is hungry at 4.50 am when she is waking up, then DO feed her and try to tank her up during the day.  Where are you feeding her? In her room or do you take her to your bed?We need to make sure there is nothing else going on that is making Daisy wake up so early.  Do you have black out curtains? Neighbors going to work that early and waking her up? Do you think she may be cold at that time? It gets colder in the early morning, so may be go to Daisy at around 3 am, and cover her with a blanket just to rule out this possibility.

Do you think she is teething? May be that's why she had such a restless night? Cold/Heat?
How is Daisy falling asleep for naps and at bedtime? Could you describe your wind down routine and let us know how she goes to sleep?

I'm glad you're going out! I hope Daisy behaves herself tonight!!   
Hugs
Alexa

[LucySol]

ok...so many questions!!
Daisy is Breastfed in her room in the dark if i feed her really early.i dont usually feed her when she wakes i feed her once i have battled to get her back to sleep and she wakes up again-at that point it is 5.30-6.00am and i feed her in my bed but i dont let her fall asleep on it.so this morning i fed her in her room at 4,50 and got her back to bed.she was very dopey when i put her back to bed but she went back in awake!
i am surprised D is hungry she eats very well in the day;
BF on wakeup
7.30-breakfast-weetabix mixed with apple and then half a banana.
12.00 lunch and yoghurt and sometimes more fruit
2.30-6oz formula
4.30-tea and pudding
Breastfeed before bed.
Maybe i should try a snack mid am? she wont touch a bottle here so i dropped it 2 months ago.Maybe milk in a sippy with a snack? what do you think?

i hate PUPD it winds her up so much.i always do WIWO when she wakes early.i try a little pat first but if she is jumping around the cot i leave her to it and do WIWO when she is screaming.

i can try the walk but its not very promising-its throwing it down here!!

Daisys WD is quite short.up to her room,nappy change,shut blinds/curtains turn on white noise,swaddled(i know she is old to swaddle but without this she wakes a lot earlier from naps-not swaddled at night)and then i sing her a song or 2 in my arms.into bed when she starts to stare and get drowsy.Falls asleep independantly normally straightaway sometimes rolls around a bit moaning first.

do have blackout blinds or curtains tho there is a little gap at the top that lets in a strip of light.
is that everything?

Do you not think putting her down later would have helped and that she woke at 1.00 after an hr was because she wasnt tired enough.She was really crying when she woke so obviosly still tired.after 30 min more she was fine and woke happy???

[charmie]

Food for thought...

Could it be the swaddle which is waking her up?  I am picturing her breaking her out of the swaddle mid nap and not being able to go back to sleep.  Could that be?  They are very strong for a swaddle at this age.


xxx
charm

[~Alexa~]

Yep! I would try to introduce another BF during the day.  She IS waking up hungry in the early morning, so try to give her more milk during the day.  In a sippy, a bottle, a BF, whatever works, but have her take more milk! Just to make sure she is not hungry in the early morning.

Keep doing wiwo when she wakes up crying in the morning, but if she is happy, then let her be and you get back to bed.

I would stop feeding her in the bed, even if it is 6.30 am! But that's me, you know! I wouldn't want her to make the association between waking up and being fed in the bed.  That's soooo attractive that could encourage the EWs. What do you think, Charm?

Charm, what are you saying? To stop swaddling during naps? Or to start swaddling during the nights? Why did you stop swaddling in the nights?

I forgot to say, if a walk is not possible b/c of weather, then do something very low key.  Carry her on a baby sling and walk around the house, sit with her and look through the window....something that isn't very stimulating and is not physical, to make sure she doesn't get OT!

[LucySol]

i odnt swaddle at night because she gets too hot.stopped swaddling completely at 5 months but had some really bad naps from then on till 7.5 months that i started swaddling again just for naps.They made her nap longer instantly.never needed to swaddle at night cos she sleeps fine most of the time. Shall i stop girls??? oh dear!! Bad naps again scare me!

ok will def try and get more milk into her.

what about tomorrow? do the same as today? what do you think bout that 12pm nap? will go with whatever you think but im confused by the timing on that one.really not sure if i could have held her out a bit and got a longer nap and not a broken nap?

[~Alexa~]

I wouldn't stop swaddling.  Elmarie (GS mod) swaddled her DD until 18 mo!  That helped her sleep good naps and good nights.  I was even thinking of swaddling during the night too! If it is helping Daisy sleep, then don't stop doing it! There is no reason for ditching the swaddle if it is helping. 
Do you think Daisy may be cold in the early morning? As the morning gets closer, sleep becomes lighter, so if she is cold at that time, that could be waking her up.  Also, if she is so used to the swaddle, not being swaddled in the night may cause the EW.  I think? What do you think Charm?

I would keep that nap at 12 pm for a couple of days and see what happens.  If she keeps waking after 1 hr, then we can think of moving it later and adding more naptime at 9 am.  But we'll see how Daisy does in the next  couple of days.  If tomorrow, Daisy doesn't seem tired at 12 pm, then keep her up a bit more, but to me, it sounds like she was tired at 12.  She rubbed her eyes, and went right to sleep, so I think she was tired!

[charmie]

Nothing wrong with swaddling if it helps.  I was just thinking it might be actually NOT helping if she is breaking out of the swaddle and waking up (that might be only in my imagination  ).  Don't really know about swaddling making a difference in her EW's.  We had to ditch the swaddle at around 4 months as she was too strong for it and no matter how tight I swaddled her she kept breaking out.  So we shifted to a sleeping bag.

I agree with Alexa to keep doing naps same as today  for a couple of days more and see what happens.  I am suspecting she might have actually needed (15mins) less a time and not more but not sure yet.


xxx
charm

[~Alexa~]

I was also thinking that may be a tiny bit less A could have helped for that nap!

Lucy, just keep an eye on the swaddle! If she is waking up out of the swaddle, then Charm may be right and that could be waking her up!

[LucySol]

ok,thanx both of you.will let you know how tomorrow goes 

[LucySol]

WHOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  she woke at 6am so slept 12 hrs!!! i know 6am is still early but its gr8 for me cos we have been having 4/5am!! And to be honest im quite happy with 6am!

i think she was possibly a little OT when she went to bed.She was thrashing around in the cot which is a bit unlike her and cried a bit before falling asleep.She then had 4 wake ups before midnight.(6.30,7.30,9.30,11.30)she was very easy to settle,my dh just went in to her and lay her down again and she went straight back to sleep each time.i think it was perhaps a bit too much 4.5A tho she can manage that in the day tho im not complaining,i can cope with that if she wakes later!

Going to go for 9.00-9.20 again,tho she is full of beans this morning so i could have a battle on my hands!

thanks again Alexa and Charm,look forward to see what you think later xxxxx

[*Liz*]

Wow Daisey  now if only you knew why!!

I would guess that catnap is going to be a bit tough at only 3hrs A.

Good luck today. Definately seems like you have a baby who has far less than average sleep needs though.

[~Alexa~]

Woooooooooooohhhhhhoooooooooooooooo!!! yay!! Yahooo!! Happy dance for you!! 

Probably a bit OT by bedtime...many NWs before midnight...OR, since her mommy wasn't around, she may have woken up to see where you were.  Just a thought!

Ok, so if she slept 12 hrs, then I would have tried the am catnap a bit later (may from from 9.30-10 am), so the pm nap could be a bit later too (12.30 pm perhaps), and Daisy doesn't go OT to bed or you have a later bedtime, depending on her mood.  But I guess it's a bit late for that, right? Just  keep it in mind for next time!

How did the rest of the day go?

[LucySol]

After my celebration im confused again now.i can feel myself getting stressed out already tho im trying so hard not to!!

so after the 6am wake up i did;
9.10-9.30 (she put up a bit of a fight tho seemed tired.tried for 9am but it took a bit longer)
..had been rubbing eyes and was grumpy so she was asleep for 12..05 tho again  this was a bit of a struggle and she again tried to resist the nap! fell asleep for 12.05 but then woke at 12.55(50 mins!! ) i knew she couldnt handle this till bedtime so i fought AGAIN to get her back to sleep..i had to rock her in my arms tho..was this the right thing to do? so after 10 mins she went back to sleep and is still asleep now.

where am i going wrong? if she is only going to sleep an hr ish for this nap i need it to end later(2ish)to get her to bedtime. but i cant get her to nap later than 12pm on just 20 mins in the morning.

ooh im confused!