New mom, short naps -help!

[lovebugsmommy]

Hi there!
Wow...I'm so grateful for this website and to know that I'm not the only one struggling with short naps over here!  This is the first time I've posted.

My almost 5 mo old little sweetie and I have been on a schedule fix-up mission for the last week and I'm happy to say
that it seems we've managed to get on a successful 4 hour EASY, eliminated a pesky early-morning rise and seem to have
weaned off the paci (he suddenly decided that the paci was YUCK! which is really what started this whole regime overhaul in the first place!).  Mommy had to figure out a new way to get him to sleep! yikes.

I'm so happy to say that he's sleeping beautifully from 7:30pm to 6:30/7:00am without a peep.  The problem area is happening at nap times.  I can now get him down with 3 to 20 minutes of sssh/ptt (PU/PD if necessary) but sadly he jolts awake consistently at 30 min or even a little earlier!  Yesterday I stood beside him from the moment he drifted off until he jolted awake and could not get him back to sleep (I have managed to do this only once since we started this new routine last sat night).  His physical jolt was so abrupt and immediately his little hands were rubbing his eyes and that was it.  After that he just looked up at me as if to say, "now what mommy!?".  At this point I really don't know what to do as he was awake and alert - very much aware of my presence and not unhappy.  Do I keep persisting to try to get him to sleep until he gets agitated so that I can do sss/pat or PU/PD?  If I walk out of the room until he starts crying am I teaching him that crying will bring mommy?  Just so confused and discouraged by these short naps.  As an aside...he's always been prone to this early waking business.  I could often get him over the hump by racing in and sticking the paci back in.  Wondering if I've created a habit for him to wake up at this time because of this?  Especially since recently it wasn't just one race in..I was in and out quite a few times and often couldn't get this to work cause he would just start smiling at me! (little devil ).  I was hoping the removal of the pacifier would be the answer and the very first nap after weaning him was a glorious 2 hours last Sunday morning but sadly it hasn't happened since. 

Here's our schedule of the last couple of days:

7:00 am Eat
A
8:45 Start put down to sleep
9:00 (approx) Sleep
9:30 Wake up
Try to get back to sleep
11am Eat
A
11:45 Put Down to sleep
12:00 (approx) Sleep
12:30 Wake up
Try to get back to sleep
3:00 Eat (he REALLY wants to fall asleep on the breast here)
A
4:00 Put down to sleep
4:30 Wake up
A
7:00 Eat
7:30 Sleep

Sorry for the horribly long post - I just don't know what to do!  Here are my specific questions:

1.) Should I continue to try to persist with the nap extension techniques right up until the next feed.  I got very concerned because my little guy's throat became very hoarse (he really hasn't been a crying baby) and this consistent crying seems to have worn him raw.  It has had definite effect on my resolve...I just feel so bad for the little guy and don't want to do permanent damage to his little vocal cords! 

2.) What do I do if he wakes up and just stares at me?  Leave the room?  Stay and keep trying (basically get him upset so that I can try to get him to sleep?)

3.) How do I start weaning myself out of the equation.  For the last week I have put him down and helped him fall completely asleep and stood beside the crib for 20 min to ensure that he was in a deep sleep (and then figured I'd wait the extra 10 min to see if I can help him through the jolts - what the heck).  How do I start to remove myself so that I'm not the prop?

4.) Have I already ruined things by abandoning the nap extension attempts twice for the afternoon naps.  I was so worried about his voice that I waited until he was somewhat calm and then gave up, picked him up and took him out of the room.  Does he now expect that after a certain amount of crying I'll give up?  The afternoon nap extensions are the most difficult.  He just seems totally amped and the only time I was able to get him to sleep again it took one whole hour of PU/PD! Arhghg.  The last two days getting him down for a catnap was virtually impossible.  (I have accomplished it once but not been able to again).

VERY discouraged and concerned my little man isn't getting the sleep he needs.  Sorry about the frighteningly long post...new mom over here - super paranoid and worried. 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Calebsmummy]

Hi there, and welcome!!

ok so just looking at your routine after the 1st early waking from the nap you should definately shorten his next A time, there is no way he can handle the same amount of A time after such a short wake up, i think whats happened here is that all this added up over time has created an OT cycle. you have some really long A times in there, too long for a 5 month old. at this age the most he should be up for (after a decent nap) is 2.5 hours. the best way to get through an OT cycle (for us anyway) was to do HTTJ (Holding through the jolts), go in at about 25mins and gently place your hands over his arms/chest/legs/whatever part you feel is the issue (for us is was just his arms) i hid at the head of his cot and put my arms through the bar so he couldnt see me, if he saw me it was all over and he wouldnt go back to sleep. Now wait, sit and wait (i put a chair there) wait for him to go through all his jolts (can last up to 20 mins) until hes really calm and isnt jolting anymore. then quietly leave. this may take a bit of practise for you to know the best way to do it for your son but it usually takes only two days of us doing this before we break the OT cycle and things start going back to normal.

Have I already ruined things by abandoning the nap extension attempts twice for the afternoon naps

Not at all, in an OT cycle, sometimes we do APOP just to get over the cycle. its tough but at the end of it you just go right back to sleep training again

What do I do if he wakes up and just stares at me?

I used to ask this question all the time too but never really found an answer. how dark is his room? if its too light then yes seeing you will keep him awake, perhaps shield his eyes? like i said once he saw me it was usually nap over.

Should I continue to try to persist with the nap extension techniques right up until the next feed

do it as long as you feel you can, theres no point being stressed over it, i found that if it wasnt going to work after 20mins then i would stop and just shorten the next A time . remember the amount of time you are trying to get him back to sleep that he doesnt sleep for is counted as A time.

HTH

[*Wendy*]

Hi there, welcome to BW - you are most definitely not alone    I am going to give you some links along the way to look at - they are really helpful.

First off, naps are very developmental for a lot of LO's and it takes time for them to get the hang of it.  I had a really hard time understanding that babies just don't sleep when they are tired...until I read Tracy's book and learned about the different temperaments and sleep cycles.  I know the short naps are discouraging just now, but they will get better.  I wouldn't say you have caused the habit with the paci, because a lot of LO's have trouble transitioning.  But the paci could be a sleep association and you just need to teach him to get through those jolts on his own.  

At nearly 5 months the A times are like this:
5 months  2 hours - 2.25 hours
And sleep is 2x 1.5 hour naps + 45 min CN and 11 - 12 at night.

I'm actually wondering if his first A time is too long for him, he may need to go down earlier - lots of LO's need their first A to be the shortest.  Have you tried 10 or 15 mins earlier?  Usually 30 min naps are OT naps.  Since he's still learning to transition between sleep phases, if he's OT he has a harder time and the jolts seem more abrupt.  

Something you can try is also W2S - you can read how to do it here:
What is wake to sleep & holding through the jolts?
also:
Short naps - why does my baby wake after 20 minutes?

I would recommend the HTTJ method for your LO, along with shush/pat.  So that would mean that you would have to sit with him for a lot of naps.  This is totally normal when sleep training.  I sat in Finn's room for most naps from weeks 12 - 20.  It was a long road but it really does get better if you are consistent.

Short naps are not restorative and as a result you get an OT baby.  The fact that he is sleeping through the night without issues means he is handling OT quite well.  Is he Angel or Textbook?  
Have a look here:
Why is it important that my baby gets more than a 45 minute nap?
Why can my baby sleep great at night but struggles with naps?

Some answers to your questions:

1.) Should I continue to try to persist with the nap extension techniques right up until the next feed.  I got very concerned because my little guy's throat became very hoarse (he really hasn't been a crying baby) and this consistent crying seems to have worn him raw.  It has had definite effect on my resolve...I just feel so bad for the little guy and don't want to do permanent damage to his little vocal cords!  Sad

Generally you should persist with shush/pat for naps for at least 45 mins.  Then you can get your LO up and either do some A before trying nap again or if hungry feed.  You need to reduce the next A time by quite a bit and try for the next nap.

2.) What do I do if he wakes up and just stares at me?  Leave the room?  Stay and keep trying (basically get him upset so that I can try to get him to sleep?)

This is a bit of a tough one.  If he's not crying but you sense he is tired, you can leave him to it.  You do not need to use any methods while he is trying to self-soothe.  This is his chance to try to do it for himself, and they quite often surprise us.  You need to be able to distinguish his cries:
What’s a mantra cry?
Most LO's have a mantra cry and this is their way of soothing themselves.  This is a cry that doesn't need your attention.

But if he's crying to the point where you think he's not going to recover, then you need to start a method, usually shush/pat.  There is lots of crying with nap training, it's normal.  I am pretty sure no LO ever hurt their vocal chords :-)  I was given the suggestion to get ear plugs.  And it helped.  It seems almost cruel but really, you need to be confident while you are training.  Tracy says in the book do not feel sorry for your LO.  And it's true.  If you are not confident, they know it.  It's best to do training when you are comfortable with crying and know that you are not hurting your LO but rather helping.

3.) How do I start weaning myself out of the equation.  For the last week I have put him down and helped him fall completely asleep and stood beside the crib for 20 min to ensure that he was in a deep sleep (and then figured I'd wait the extra 10 min to see if I can help him through the jolts - what the heck).  How do I start to remove myself so that I'm not the prop?

This comes in time, as they learn you will need to do it less and less.
The point is you are there for him, and teaching.  
You are not a prop:  
When do I use shush-pat & is it a prop? When should I move to pu/pd?

.) Have I already ruined things by abandoning the nap extension attempts twice for the afternoon naps.  I was so worried about his voice that I waited until he was somewhat calm and then gave up, picked him up and took him out of the room.  Does he now expect that after a certain amount of crying I'll give up?  The afternoon nap extensions are the most difficult.  He just seems totally amped and the only time I was able to get him to sleep again it took one whole hour of PU/PD! Arhghg.  The last two days getting him down for a catnap was virtually impossible.  (I have accomplished it once but not been able to again).

He's amped up because he's OT.  That does make it really really hard.  So that's why you need to tweak the routine a bit to get him having a good AM nap, and continue to support his nap training.  You haven't ruined anything, but it does pay to be consistent :-)  

You are doing a great job - you are a concerned mummy who wants the best for her LO, that's the first step and right attitude - I don't think it's paranoid at all :-)  The rest is just some hard work to teach him how to do it on his own.  

hehe looks like Jo beat me to it ;-)  It took me forever to get this posted for some reason - BW is hanging on our internet. 
I realize now that you said nap extensions which Jo has said, 20 mins and then get LO up.  If you are starting with shush/pat and LO hasn't slept yet, try for 45 mins to get a nap out of them.

[lovebugsmommy]

Oh WOW.  Thank you SOOOO much for both of your advice - I really, really appreciate it!!
 
I actually took my little dude to the doc today to check in on his raspy "I just went out to a rock show all night and screamed my brains out" voice.  It was just eating at my confidence to keep letting him cry as it had now been 5 days and he still sounded so raw - and I felt like he was holding back on his adorable babbles and giggles which was breaking my heart! The doc told me to keep going with the training...that it looks like he may just have picked up a little virus which was causing the hoarseness.  She definitely encouraged me to keep up with it! 
So...I muster on!

I will read all of the links and definitely try tweaking the A times.  I watch my LO so carefully and rarely see those signs so soon - I always wonder if I'm pushing him to sleep before he is actually tired - but I know that he is likely OT.  I'll try to get him down earlier and see what happens.  Tomorrow I will also try the HTTJ method...as it is definitely his arms that  really fling out of control!  I will post back as to how it goes...in case it might help anyone else battling the same predicament!

Thank you so much...I would love to hug you both!

[Calebsmummy]

keep us posted!

[*Wendy*]

No worries.  Let us know how you get on.

One thing I forgot to add is that a wind down is crucial.  It really helps to set the stage for sleep when you keep a consistent wind down for your LO - the same for EVERY nap. 
What does a good wind down consist of? (Includes "Four S" ritual)

And you often have to start the wind down long before you think it's nap time because it factors in to your A time.  Lots of LO's can handle a short wind down and others get really overstimulated by A time and need that longer wind down to get ready for sleep.  In the beginning, Finn needed a really long wind down, in the dark, with white noise on, I would do a half swaddle on his lower half and then a little singing and rocking to calm him and then put him into crib and start with shush/pat.  I often had to do this quite a while before his A time was up...because A time is eyes open to closed.  That's often where things go wrong, when we wait too long for tired signs (and not all LO's are great at showing them) sometimes it's too late.  I found 9 times out of 10 I was putting him down too late and he would get OT very easily. 

Oh and does he have a lovie?  If not time to get one :-)
What is a lovie, and why should my baby have one?

Best of luck with the training!

[lovebugsmommy]

OH MY GOD IT WORKS!!!!!!!

I am ecstatic right now.  This morning my LO decided to wake up at 6 instead of 7 unfortunately but we had a busy afternoon yesterday and he was about 1/2hr late getting to sleep and so tired he didn't B.F. as ferociously as usual so I kind of expected an earlier rise.  Anyway...I decided we would simply carry on with the schedule an hour earlier and see how it went as the day progressed.

I did a wind down with him at 7:15 and simply laid him in the crib with his Winnie-The-Pooh at 7:30, said goodnight and left the room - just waiting for the cries.  There were none!  Some moaning and mellow whines and by 7:45am it was completely silent on the monitor!  I was AMAZED.  So I went in at 8:05 and his little Winnie had draped over his face a bit (covering his eyes...perfect!) and I held his little arms while he jolted and he proceeded to sleep until 10:00am!!!  I was over the moon!

Not sure what to do next I waited until he showed some hungry signs to feed him (as I thought maybe we could drift ourselves sort of back on schedule) and ended up feeding at 10:45am.  I'd read that I should keep him up for half an hour after feeding so at 11:15 I was winding down.  I think this was all too late...because I was actually seeing some heavy eyelids.  I think I may have missed the window because I laid him down at 11:30 left the room - and although it looked hopeful at times - by 12:00 he was still crying and starting to get revved up.  So I went in and tried sss/pat for 15 min to no avail...finally I decided that maybe it wouldn't be too bad if I gave him the soother just to get him to sleep (he usually always spits it out and doesn't wake up).  He went to sleep then...but was back awake a few times and in went the soother a few more (yikes) until finally at 12:45 he was asleep.  I just came from his room and after HTTJ he is still asleep!!!!

I am SO THRILLED.  It was a little up and down but he has not had this much daytime sleep in ages.  I can't thank you guys enough!!! 

Any thoughts on the timing?  Should I have fed him right away you think?  Also...I just have to say that HTTJ is tough on the back...wow.

[Calebsmummy]

thats awesome news!!!! well done! yes HTTJ is a killer on the back, hence why we put a chair there, not an option for some people but it certainly made it easier for me!!

with keeping him up half an hour after a feed, if hes really tired then i would just keep him up 10mins, just enough so that theres a gap between the feed and going to bed so you arent "feeding him to sleep" thats what we do anyway and if hes super zonked then just let him fall asleep i say, when OT is around you do pretty much anything to beat it to get back on track so once or twice letting him fall asleep to it wont harm him and if it does then you tackle that when OT is sorted.

again well done, you must feel amazing (i know i always did after those delicious naps!)

[lovebugsmommy]

Yes I do feel amazing!...like a big weight lifted off my shoulders.  I've been really feeling a LOT of stress over this for the last
few days - it's just so emotionally and physically draining to spend so much cribside time with no change in the situation.
I wish I could put a chair in...but our crib is too high to be able to reach over the sides!  (I'm an interior designer so I am making note
of this if I ever do a nursery for a client that's for sure!)

Thanks again...we'll see how tomorrow goes.  Now for a hot bath. 
Really...thanks SO much.
btw...that "ipood" pic is just TOO cute!  I smile every time I look at it!

[Calebsmummy]

thanks hun, he is a cutie pie (not so much at the moment with a cold grrr)

with the crib, can you put your arms through the slots? thats what we did as well, not my DH obviously because of his arms being bigger than mine but i managed to slip mine through

[georgeo]

Hi everyone,

We have a nearly 6 month old and as I was reading your initial post I thought, "That's us!"  Thank you so much for asking your questions.  We're going to try HTTJ tomorrow and are hopeful.  We realised today that he is likely overtired because he is always still asleep at 7:00 am and we have to wake him up so we decided to put him to bed an hour earlier tonight.  After reading this thread we're thinking putting him to bed an hour earlier won't be enough. 

When our DS wakes up early from his nap and we can't get him to sleep we have been continuing with PU/PD until the nap time should be over.  Then we feed him, have activity time and then put him down for his next nap.  Here is what today looked like:

7:00 Woke him up (He was sound asleep.  It seems odd to wake him up but we thought we needed to start each day at 7:00.  Are we wrong here?  I know we need to pay attention to his cues and it feels like we're ignoring them by waking him up.)
E 7:10
A 7:40  (8:40 rubbed eyes so started wind down routine)
S 9:00  (slept 20 minutes.  Did PU/PD until 10:30 then had quiet activity)
E 10:50
A 11:20  (12:45 was getting cranky so started wind down)
S 1:05 (45 min sleep.  Sh/pat to get back to sleep.  Slept another 45 minutes.  Woke 2:40 so had quiet activity until 3:00)
E 3:00
A 3:20  (4:45 calm down)
S 5:00 The Cat Nap that wasn't.....30 minutes of PU/PD and Shh/Pat without success.
A 5:30
6:15 Bath
E 6:30 (He rubbed his eyes four times while I was feeding him and I think he actually fell asleep for a second.Calm down 7:00)
S 7:15  (He went to sleep with a minimal amount of crying.  He usually sleeps right through the night with a dream feed at about 3 1/2 hours after he was last fed.  Tonight he woke up crying at 9:30 (which is unusual) and had a large feed-he usually does eat a lot at his DF.) 

Some days he sleeps for 2 hours for his morning or afternoon nap but very rarely both.  The Cat Naps are more often than not a 30/45 minute session of PU/PD. 

Here is where we are confused.  If he sleeps for only 20 or 45 minutes and won't go back to sleep with PU/PD then we should only have him up for about 30 minutes before trying to put him back down for a nap?  If that is the case when do we feed him?  Do we feed him when he wakes up from that nap... about 4 hours after his last feed?

We started EASY nearly two weeks ago and were amazed that he started to sleep through the night right away.  Now we're looking to tweak nap times so. 

Thank you in advance for your suggestions.  We really appreciate it.     

       

[lovebugsmommy]

Hello there!
Although I'm not happy for you that we're in the same "short nap" situation (it's hard!)...I am happy if any of my questions may have helped you guys out.  I'm certainly no expert...but I can tell you what I've been doing that's worked.  I was doing exactly the same thing as you - keeping the naps to the schedule...but it did make sense that the LO would be overtired if they just had a short nap and that the next nap should be sooner.  I would either keep trying for the nap until the feed or give up and do soft activities until the feed - and then after the feed start the wind down very soon - either when I saw the tired signals or 30 min was what I was doing - whichever came first.

I've had really good luck with the last two days (YAY!).  HTTJ really worked - day before yesterday I had two TWO hour naps and yesterday it was a morning two hour nap and an afternoon 1.5 hr (but we dropped something really loud downstairs (ARHGHGH) so I think that woke him up).  The amazing thing was that I noticed was that as soon as he seemed to be catching up on sleep - the tired signals became much more visible (I think he was just so strung out OT that it wasn't evident before).  Also...he just took his own catnap (miraculously) both days in the car seat (now not even a ride in the car had been working for us before).

Today was the first morning that I couldn't get HTTJ to work.  He woke up with a super jolt way later than usual - 55min or so?  I was just getting ready to sneak out when it happened and there was no recovery.  All that backbreaking work for nothing!  sigh.  I didn't try for long but tried getting him down for his aft nap earlier.  Unfortunately HTTJ didn't work for me this time either (I think the problem is covering his eyes...I've been using his lovie to kind of drape over his eyes so he can't see me but it's a fine line between successfully managing that or having it bug him when he stirs...which I think is what happened here).  Anyway...after using the soother (I've been trying to only do that as a last resort) he feel asleep again and with nothing covering his eyes I practically crawled in the crib with him to stay out of his sight range while I did HTTJ and it has worked!  He is still sleeping and I NEED A MASSAGE. 

You really do have to laugh at this a little bit - and I'll share too much information now but oh well - this morning right in the critical point of HTTJ nature decided to call!  (not with him...with me!) and I'm not talking about a subtle ring - but a serious message that could not be ignored!  I thought "#(*$&(#*$&" and ran out of the room just hoping that I wouldn't miss the wake up.  Turns out I didn't but he woke up at the 55min mark just to make me crazy.  Once again #(*#&$(#*$&.     The things we do!!!!!

[lovebugsmommy]

Oh two more thoughts:

1.) I've been noticing the jolts to be happening fairly consistently at the following times:
22-24 min
34-36 min
43-45 min
Occasionally later - around 55 min or so.

2.) Has anyone out there found a way to make this less backbreaking?  My crib is pushed up against the wall and the slats too close together to get hands through - a side approach is required.  I started to think about putting little beanbags on his arms or something while standing and monitoring?  Does that sound totally crazy??  I think my sore back is making me a little nuts.

[georgeo]

I'm so glad you're having success.  I was reading that regressions (especially with little boys) often happen so hang in there.  Those naps sound glorious! 

We observed out LO and he doesn't jolt, just seems to take a big breath and let it out in cute little spurts but he doesn't wake up.  He does however wake up like clockwork after 45 minutes.  We're thinking that he's OT but also because he doesn't wake up after 20 minutes but rather 45 that he has developed a habit to do this.  We're going to try wake to sleep tomorrow and hope that helps.  I don't know how he developed it because we religiously did PU/PD every time if he work up early but we must have been going in too early or something.  We didn't want him to feel abandoned but perhaps we should have left him a bit longer...or not picked him up straight away when we go in but try to settle him with shh/pat. 

I hope your back is feeling better.  Perhaps a gift certificate for a massage is in the cards for Christmas  

[lovebugsmommy]

I think that gift certificate is a great idea!!! For sure!!

I read somewhere on here that the 45 min nap can often be a UT situation.  Could that be the case with your little guy?
It's SO hard to know when to go in and when to leave them...I'm concerned about creating a habit as well.

Any luck with WTS?