What is happening here?!

[sianie]

Hi!

Thought some new eyes on this board might help me with getting DS back on track with his routine.

DS is 23 wo and has been on EASY since he was very little. He started short napping around 8 weeks old and from that point on I have had to extend his naps (with HTTJ) as he tends to wake at the 30/45 min mark. This was generally quite successful most of the time and I would go in just before the time he usually stirred, put my hand on him to help him transistion to the next sleep cycle and he would (usually!!), sleep for 1.5 hrs,......

..........that is until over a week ago, when overnight it became pratically impossible to extend his naps...he would wake at either 30 or 40 mins and be wide awake and that is it, no way does he want to go back to sleep. So we've had over a week of 30 or 4o min naps and although I've reduced his A time after the short nap to around 1.5hrs, he's still tired and miserable & v. OT by the end of the day (even with an early BT!).

I've been tweaking his A time by both increasing and decreasing it to try and get things back on track but not much seems to work (also had some fab advice from naps board).

His EASY a week ago was awake at 7am, 2hrs (ish) A time and then 2 1.5hr naps with a CN. Since then he's been having around 4 30-45 min naps a day and gets harder and harder to go down for these as the day goes on (must be OT).

So any new thoughts? I also have a 2 yo DD so don't have a load of time to spend sleep training when she is around. I'm sure the key is in the A time but as our routine has been blown apart I have no idea where to start again with it??

Would really appreciate any thoughts.....TIA! 

[skatty]

I'm not very good with A times at certain ages because my dd had shorter than average buit it sounds like it may have started with a need to extend the A time slightly and this has lead to OT. Not really sure how to fix it so I hope somone else jumps on but if the nights are good maybe try and gently extend the first A time to get a good nap and the rest of the day will hopefully follow suit, easier written down than done I know  Or there could be the beginnings of some teething coming on which may mean his usual A times are too long so he is OT. Sorry I was no help at all was I 

[sianie]

Thanks Skatty 

Can anyone else please help? x

[jess, lukeys_mom]

hi there,

quick question...maybe i should know this...what is HTTJ??

can you please post your EASY with the times as well as eating times, whether you are BF or formula feeding, and what his nights are like (wake ups feedings etc )? Any new developments going on such as rolling, crawling, etc?

x

[sianie]

Hi

HTTJ (hold through the jolts)...I usually go in around the 30 min mark when he starts to stir and put my hand o his back, this used to pretty much always help him get through to the next sleep cycle but over since over a week ago this has worked maybe once or twice.

His EASY is all over the place but I'll post yesterday's an an example:

E: 6.50am
S: 9.05am (extended at 30 mins when he woke, tho this was a 1 off)
Woke: 10.30am
A: 30 mins
E: 11am
A:1.15hrs
S: 12.15am (woke at 30 mins and couldn't extend)
A: 12.45pm (reduced A time after short nap to 1.5hrs)
S: 2.15pm (wouldn't go down so had to get him up again as we had to go out..)
E: 3pm
S: 4.15pm (30 mins in buggy)
A: 1.5hrs
E: 6.15pm
S: 6.30pm

He is bottle fed and he generally wakes once at night for a feed, tho he does also wake when his dummy falls out (tho not too many times).

He has been rolling for a few weeks. He sleeps on his tummy for naps due to reflux (although he is on meds and it's under control). I also thought of teething and so I gave him teething gel & powders before his naps & this made no difference......it just seems to all have changed overnight & I'm at a loss as to where it's all gone wrong?! 

When he has been waking from his short naps he is pretty happy & doesn't cry....

Thanks for having a look....I appreciate it! 

[sianie]

P.S: Today has been bad again....mainly 30/40 min naps.

First A time was 2hrs 10 & managed to extend to 1hr 20, but the rest of the day his naps were 30/40 mins which I couldn't extend, this meant the rest of the day then went totally to pot. with a day like this I usually have to try & fit in 4 naps for him to make it through the day without being totally OT, but the last couple of days he's refused to go down for it, even with AP'ing!! So he's now been awake since 3.30pm (2hrs plus & counting) & even with an early BT (I also have a toddler too) he's going to be v. OT!!

It's all such a mess...any ideas? TIA!

[sianie]

Any thoughts please?

[skatty]

This is exactly how my days were, you sound like you have a spirited sleeper that gets very OS and OT quickly, what I did was ignore all the usual A time info and realised my dd needed a much shorter A time than others her age, I also had to keep A times really low key, no lying under mobiles which made her angry, no toys being thrust at her etc and made all our A times things like walking in the pram, singing and talking on my lap or in the sling watching what I was up to, probably not easy for you with a toddler as well! If it is due to teething though then powders and gel may not cut it, my spirited dd found teething more intense as well as life in general   If you suspect teething could you give some paracetomel and see if it makes a difference? Anyway just in case it is an A time issue, what i did was watch like a hawk for her first yawn or glassy eyeness and got her straight into her snow suit (she slept oustide in her pram) and this was winddown enough, she would start falling asleep as I put it on!! If he is teething it may well mean his A times are much shorter right now.

HTH, Katt  

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi there

(Posted at the same as Katt )

Is your lo spirited? Just wondering, because although it could happen with any lo, I have noticed that spiriteds seem to really be affected by the developmental jump that babies often experience at 4-5mo. With that jump, lo becomes much more aware of surroundings and has a lot more trouble settling when there is stimulation around and anything to make him stir when he wakes to transition to the next sleep cycle. Often it's a phase that lo grows out of, sometimes it needs help...

Some thoughts,

- does he respond to AP? Like when you take him in the buggy, will he take good naps?  This could be a short-term solution to catching up on daytime sleep if you expect that he is OT.
- does he seem OT between naps? Like cranky, jolty body, etc?
- for sleep times, are you able to follow his cues? If so, does he seem very tired for that first AM nap? with my kids I have found that the morning nap has always been the key one: when I get that right, the rest went well too. With my first ds (spirited and touchy equally), he needed a really short morning A time, like 1.5 h, for a very long time. It didn't extend until he was much older, close to a year if memory serves. With ds2, who is a great napper and will sleep pretty much whenever I put him down, i noticed that even though I tried smaller A times and he'd sleep, the best naps were around the 2.5 hour A time mark at 5 mo, and that quickly extended to 3h.
- do you use anything else for sleeping such as a swaddle?
- have you ever tried Wake To Sleep for extending naps?

as a final thought, after reading your post yesterday saying that nothing was getting him to nap, even AP... I think my best words of wisdom are that everything is a phase, no matter what. even the good periods! this will change too, and in terms of naps i think the best and only thing you can do is to keep watching his cues and providing the opportunity for him to sleep well. if he is not taking it, then you are doing your best and might just have to roll with it until his body is ready to reset into a new routine again, kwim?  it sounds like you are doing everything you can for him so we can try some routine tweaking and if you are still getting short naps, you might have to ride it out. (also if night sleep is the same then i would be less concerned than if you are getting tons of ot nw's etc too).

hth and i'll look out for the answers to your questions so we can look at any tweaks from there!  

[skatty]

Great minds think alike Jess 

It is those jerky jolts in the nap that point to the OT and OS, my dd would get these even as a much older baby/toddler. Now Jess has mentioned that first A time, I do believe Leorah was going for her first nap around the 50 min/hour mark at that age and we also had to get that first nap right to get the rest of the day on track, if I got it right she would go down for a few hours but it would always be the longest nap of the day right until we went to one nap at 12 months 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

I do believe Leorah was going for her first nap around the 50 min/hour mark at that age and we also had to get that first nap right to get the rest of the day on track, if I got it right she would go down for a few hours but it would always be the longest nap of the day right until we went to one nap at 12 months 

Crazy huh - it really does vary so much from lo to lo. It helped me a lot when I started paying MUCH less attention to all the "average" A times per age, and really reading cues. The average times were driving me nuts - neither of my kids was right on the average.

[sianie]

Thank you both so much for your replies...you make a lot of sense!!

I've always thought DS was touchy rather than spirited (DD who is 2 yo, is definitely spirited, lol!)....I think there is a lot in what you are saying about sensitivity to OS...DS adores his big sister & his A time involves her a lot which I'm conscious doesn't help his sleep. I have been trying to make sure I do a 10 min wind down with him before naps (we have turned our dining room into a 'day nursery' where he sleeps), but I'm very aware of leaving DD on her own....

Right, back to your other questions!

 - He sometimes responds to AP....he will sleep in car/buggy tho does 30 mins tops! When we were on track with EASY we always did his CN out & about as we usually have some activity on for DD. AP'ing him has gotten a lot harder the last couple of weeks since his routine went up the spout.....I even tried to get him to sleep on me yesterday afternoon with no success.
 - I 100% agree with you both that the 1st nap of the day is crucial...if it goes wrong the rest of the day is usually a bit of a right off. His sleepy cues are hard to read (again, I think as DD is around he's so pre-occupied with her), so it's hard to know exactly when he's tired.
 - He was swaddled for the 1st couple of months but we stopped as he got out of every swaddle I tried. He sleeps on his tummy for naps (& has done since birth due to reflux, which he is on meds for & is under control).
 - I tried W2S a few months back but found it hard to get right as I either didn't get him to stir enough or did too much & he woke up!
 - He generally wakes up from short naps happy but he quickly can get quite miserable.
 - Re: teething, I definitely think his teeth are moving around...I gave him paracetamol, teething gel & powders before his first nap this morning & he did a 40 min nap which I couldn't extend.

Last night wasn't great either....quite a few NW's...he has a dummy which sometimes needs re-plugging & he was awake at 6am.

He is quite jolty during his naps, which is why HTTJ has worked in the past.....does this mean OT/OS?

My only other thought is hunger...he's on 4hr EASY feed wise & easily takes 8oz's at each feed (he's over 18lbs so a big little man!)....am going to start introducing solids over the next day or so....tho not sure this is related to naps??

Phew! Hope I've answered it all! Thanks again for both your suggestions & advice. 

[skatty]

My dd was always jumpy and jolty and it is only after now I reckon she was constantly OS. I do think there is a fine line between touchy and spirited when they are so young, especially when it comes to sleep. Maybe watching his spirited sister is quite OS, not sure what you can do about that though 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

i think hunger does relate to naps...like if the bottle or bf is not enough to sustain them for a really long time, they will wake up sooner and get cranky from hunger. i did not have to start solids before 6mo with my kids but i have heard that this has helped with sleeping issues for others on this board. for us solids at least helped to introduce something new during the A times when they started getting cranky, even though it took a bit to really get into eating good portions.

as for w2s - i did really have success with that for luke by using his dummy and reinserting it. dylan didn't have a dummy so didn't respond to w2s, it would wake him up  perhaps it's worth another try?

just thinking too, since he is starting to have nw's too... do you think the paci might be the problem?

[sianie]

It is so much harder establishing a routine with LO 2.....not sure what I can do about DD making DS OS either....

Started DS on baby rice today and upped his milk feeds too so will see if that makes a difference....he's only had around 2hrs total naptime sleep today and took ages to get done at BT 

Re: dummy, I think in part it's an issue at night....it has become a prop for him to go to sleep and he does wake at night to have it re-plugged. For naps tho I don't think it's so much of an issue.....it tends to stay in his mouth & if it does fall out, I used to be able to re-plug when I went in around 30-ish mins & he'd go back to sleep. The dilemma is tho that it has really helped him with his reflux BUT I'm conscious that it is a prop so it's difficult to know whether to wean him off it now or later??!!

What do you think I should try to do with A times tomorrow?? Will look out for cues as much as possible but do you think it's worth cutting them back from the 2hr 10 he's had the last few days??

Thanks again! 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi - I got on here too late today to make any suggestions of what to do for A times - how did the day go?   It is hard to say what to do for times though, it depends so much on him. I believe though that anything is worth trying for a day - if it doesn't work you can always go back to what you were doing before!

RE the dummy.... weaning is really up to you. I am not going to argue that you have to do it...My ds1 STILL has his at night sleep! (he was also a refluxer) DS2 does not, and he never really seemed to need it. The only thing with the dummy is that if lo needs it to get back to sleep every time, then it can work against naps. When they start becoming more alert around your lo's age, sometimes they stir a little and it's enough to keep them awake even if you go in and replug, kwim?

Interested to know how your night went and how the solids introduction went...

[sianie]

Hi Jess!

Thanks for asking.....yesterday started ok, managed to extend DS's nap so he got about 1.5hrs, tho the rest of the day went down hill & had 30 min naps for the rest of the day! He's definitely teething, which I think in part is to do with the problem tho have been giving paracetamol, teething gel & salts before sleeps to help...

Figuring out A times I find so hard....DS's sleepy cues are a lot harder to read now he's older & also when I have the 2 LO's around I find it hard to be focused on looking out for them!!

Last night wasn't great, he took a while to settle at BT then was awake for over an hour from 1am-2am & wouldn't re-settle!

Solids went ok...he's seems to be taking to it...going slowly & just baby rice at the moment!

I am totally thrown about what to do about DS's dummy....I've never been a dummy fan, DD never had one & I gave DS one reluctantly (tho I have to admit it has really helped comfort him with his reflux & also to settle him for sleep, with 2 I don't have a lot of time to do a long wind down & Sssh/Pat etc). I always had 6 mths in my mind....that I'd wean him by then, but he's not far off 6mths and it's so hard to know what to do for the best! He does need it to go to sleep & during his naps he does pull it out & then when he's in a lighter sleep wakes up when it's not there (tho I do try and go in before he starts stirring to re-plug which does sometimes work). 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi,

I know what you mean about A times and sleep cues! It does get harder as lo gets older.  My DS2 is pretty easy to read but with DS1, in order to figure out A times at this age, I had to just start trying them. When one was successful, I would try repeating it and seeing if it kept working for him. 

Also, I cannot quite remember his age, but I do remember that we were at a point where we were struggling to get good naps, and all of a sudden we had a day where our schedule was preventing him from doing 3 naps (I tried AP but it wasn't working), and he took 2 good naps. From that point we mostly did 2 naps and that's when thins really got better for him.  I don't know if that might be something for your lo? (it could be totally the opposite and he needs even more sleep so I don't want to declare that this is the solution, but could be worth a try??) 6 months seems like the average age for 2 naps.

The dummy is also tricky. I am not a dummy fan either, and am kind of shocked that I have a nearly 3.5 yo with one! (Thankfully, he is just about ready to let go of it) but at a certain moment I felt like it was the way lesser of the evils being presented, and we had to choose one. That may also be the case for you guys, so I wouldn't kick yourself for keeping it, nor would I wean at 6 months unless there is reason (i.e. you don't think he needs it anymore or it is interrupting his sleep). BW is about listening to his cues, so IMHO if it seems like your lo is being soothed by the dummy and it's helping his reflux, I would keep it and try to get one of those little cloth things that attaches to the dummy so your lo can find and replug more easily.

[sianie]

Hi!

Thanks for your thoughts!

A quick update....since Sunday I've been trying to go more with DS's sleepy cues (ok when DD isn't around but v. hard when she is!).....been putting him down for naps at around 2 hr A time (which is quite a big reduction, he had been on around 2hrs 15 or so)......with these A times I have managed to extend most of his naps so he's been having roughly 2 x 1.5hr & 1 CN (usually in buggy as we are out doing activities with DD). Not sure why A times have gone backwards....maybe OT from the week or so of short naps?

He is definitely teething which I think is part of the problem....I watched him during his nap the other day & he pulls his dummy out so he can chew his hands which then wakes him up! am giving him meds before sleeps which has helped a bit.

Dummy issue is still a dilemma, my main worry is having the time to wean him off it i.e I know he's going to scream blue murder & will have to do Ssssh/pat & PU/PD which will be tough with a toddler around......