Author Topic: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!  (Read 962 times)

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Offline NikNik

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Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« on: May 23, 2011, 03:50:22 AM »
I could post this pretty much anywhere in the sleep section as my 4.5 month old is having short naps, lots of NW and EW as well. We had been stuck in the 30-40 minute nap rut, but now (past 3-4 weeks) we have also been dealing with 2-4 NW with EW around 5. I am so exhausted I can't think straight much less have the patience to do just about anything useful for her. I try to sleep when she sleeps but when she only sleeps for 30 min, of which I usually only manage 10, I wake up so distraught I often end up crying. I am miserable and I don't feel like I am giving her what she needs which makes me more miserable. Ironically, she is getting about the same amount of sleep as me but is happy as a clam during her awake time- making me so confused on what to do. Even when she wakes at night, she is happy- as long as I come into her- if I let her fuss to see if she will get herself back to sleep, she will eventually work into a full out cry. During the NW, she does not always seem hungry, but it is often the only way to get her back to sleep (and she takes full feeds- even more confusing). The other night I was up for an hour and a half before I finally fed her- did not fall asleep on the boob but went down easily after that with shh/pat. She does use a dummy but plugging her back in only seems to make her angry so I don't think that is why she is waking. Lately, with her naps, I am lucky to get past the 30 min mark, which seems to me OT, but she wakes up OT because of her nights and is literally showing tired signs (yawning, rubbing eyes) within 30 minutes of waking, but will play happily for over 2 hours before getting fussy. I really feel that the key is to get her sleeping during the day, but I have no idea how to do this because I am so, so tired. When she wakes from naps, she is wide awake and happy, but like I said shows tired signs almost immediately. I have been doing a lot of APOP, especially in the early mornings because I am just too tired to do anything else. DH is absolutely useless at night and even when he gets up with her, I have to take over within 10 minutes. I don't know how to do PU/PD with a dummy, but I am reluctant to wean the dummy because it helps her get to sleep, another vicious cycle we are in. I am vigorously keeping track of her EASY but no 2 days seem to be the same. I will post the last couple of days (complete with my AP) to get any feed back, but keep in mind that the 2 days before these were different again. I have also played around with her A time (both lengthening and shortening it) without success.

2 days ago:
EW at 0530- after 30 mins of shh/pat brought her into bed with me
Awake 0700
E 0700
A 0700-0850
S 0850-0925 attempted to resettle, but DD was happy and wide awake so got her up
A 0925-1020
E 1020
A 1020-1110
S 1110-1245 Surprisingly long nap!!
A 1245-1400
E 1400
A 1400-1515
S 1515- 1630- Slept in Pram
A 1630-1700
E 1700 Solids followed by BF
A 1730-1830
S 1900 Took a very long time time to get to sleep, but I thought with the longer naps, maybe night would go better, but...

NW #1 2130- BF to get back to sleep (usually would have DF at 10 or 1030)
NW #2 2430- again, BF to get back to sleep
NW #3 0300- tried for an hour not to feed, but broke down at 0400 & BF

Yesterday
Awake 0700
E 0700
A 0700-0830- grumpy baby all morning
S 0830-0910- Very hard to get down- started at 0800 I think
A 0910-1000
E 1000
A 1000-1110
S 1110-1150
A 1150-1330
E 1330
A 1330-1410
S 1410-1445
A 1445-1640- Happy this whole time
CN 1640- 1700 in car
E 1700 Solids and BF
A 1740-1830
S 1830

NW #1 2130 BF back to sleep (2nd night in a row that she woke before DF)
NW #2 2330-0100 Possibly had tummy pain as this ended with a big poopy nappy
NW #3 0200 Does not seem to be in pain this time, BF
NW #4 0400 Eventually BF because I was so, so tired

Today so far:
EW 0530ish, BF at 0600, AP and brought into bed with me
Awake 0745
A 0745-1000
E 1000
S 1020-1055
A 1055-1200 At 1110 or so, started showing tired signs again, tried several times to get her to go back to sleep.
S 1200- now

So, I know I have made some huge mistakes here, and her routine is all over the shop, but I don't know how to get her on track when we are both so tired all the time. Today, I purposefully tried altering the routine per advise from early childhood center- ie the S after E. We will see. She also recommended dropping the DF since it is not working anyway and is waking her up when she is actually staying asleep, but it seems DD is waking for it now... PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 17:13:53 PM »
bumping up the list for you
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o
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Offline All4Finn

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 20:58:57 PM »
Hi there hon, sounds like a lot going on.  How's it going now?

We never did a DF either, he woke anyway 2x per night, whether we DF him or not.  SO we just followed his lead there, as it worked better for us.

I don't think at her age there is anything wrong with feeding and getting her back to sleep, really she's pretty little still and will be having a few more large growth spurts.  If she's taking full feeds then I think we can assume that she's hungry...kids don't typically eat if they aren't :-)

At her age, we would normally expect her to be awake around 2/2.25 hrs and then napping 2x per day for 1.5 hrs and then a short CN to bedtime.

I don't want to open a can of worms or anything but can I ask why DH is useless with her?  If he's willing to get up and do the work, whatever he decides to do, I'd let him...you do need your rest too...

There are no mistakes here, just learning process :-)
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Offline *Kara*

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 22:38:37 PM »
I swear that we looked just like that at 4 1/2 months as well... these ladies are great and will get it sorted for you :) 
My textbook toddler with an angel's halo

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Offline NikNik

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 01:52:33 AM »
Hi ladies,
Things are pretty much the same here, though we had a couple of good nap days, nights have been much the same. SO I started doing PU/PD just for the middle of the night feed. She is still waking up before the DF, so I am just feeding, changing nappy, then back to bed. We have done 2 nights of the PU/PD and she handles it ok, doesn't take too long to get her back to sleep, but for the life of me I can't get her to stay asleep. Very frustrating. I decided before I started that I would not feed her until 0400 (so she is doing 6 hours between feeds) and both nights I fed her right at 4. I am thinking that this means she is waking from hunger which is why she won't stay asleep long, even though it definitely has a habitual waking pattern as well. It also means she is feeding every 3-4 hours round the clock, which I feel is not ok anymore! I don't know how to change this except by just not feeding her and letting her catch up during the day. I would like your opinion on this. Here is what the last 2 nights looked like:
Night 1
NW #1 2130 BF
NW #2 0115 PU/PD, would go to sleep but wake again within 10 minutes or so, stayed asleep at 0245 until 0400
NW #3 0400 BF
Awake for day at 0720

Night 2
NW #1 2130 BF
NW #2 0215 PU/PD. Initially got to sleep at 0250 but could not get more than 10-15 minutes, often less, of sleep. When she woke again at 0355, gave BF and then it took some time until she went back to sleep- slept until 0450 then needed to be plugged in then asleep for remainder of the night.
Awake in morning 0800 (though I heard her at 0720, she went back to sleep until 0800)

Thoughts? I initially told myself I would go hard with the middle of the night feed for 3 nights and see if there was any improvement. Is it ok to do PU/PD for just 1 feed but immediately feed for the others, or would this be confusing for her? I realize she is still little, but she is not a starving baby trust me, so I feel that she should be able to do at least 6 hours overnight. As I said in my last post, I was going to drop the DF, but now she is waking for it anyway, so i am just counting it as her last feed of the day. DO you think I should be waking her at the same time in the morning? I have found in the past, if she wakes on her own between 6-630, we generally have a good day routine/nap wise, but with all the NW I am pretty reluctant to wake her.
Wendy- in relation to why DH is useless- he just has no patience overnight (is great with her during the day) and gives up and puts her back down wide awake or pulls her into bed with us. He hasn't read the book and I only really get moral support from him, as in "sounds great, whatever you want to do babe" without really showing an interest in helping. Sooo, not to use this as a forum to vent about hubby, I will leave it there.
I have friends that have used CIO and others who are still feeding on demand and they all seem happier than me right now. Sometimes I think all this sleep training is just making my life really hard and I am not sure if it is worth it.
AM I MAKING THIS TOO HARD?

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 16:49:24 PM »
Hugs. Being sleep deprived is no fun.
I think maybe you are putting a little too much emphasis on her sleeping for 6hrs without a feed at night. If you think she is waking from hunger I would feed her at the NWs and not try to make her last until 4am. Waking at different times and repeatedly after resettling is normally a sign it is from hunger and not just habit. It is not uncommon for LOs to wake for a couple of night feeds at this age. Personally I would concentrate on getting her days sorted first and see if a few weeks of good days help her to wake less at night.
You mentioned her naps had been OK for the last 2 days. Can you post how those days went in terms of how long she was awake and asleep and when she fed (EAS) so we can take a look. Is she feeding well during the day? Do you feed from both breasts at each feed? Lots of mums start doing double sided feeding around this age if they haven't been doing so already. I often found that doing a nappy change in between offering the 1st and 2nd breast that DS would take more from the 2nd and so more overall. If you can up her calories in the day that may help her be less hungry at night.
I know when some LOs start waking for the DF some mamas have gone in and offered it a little earlier so they catch their LO before she wakes. Is this something you could try?
PUPD is not suitable for use with a dummy unless the LO is able to re-plug themselves all the time so you may need to wean the dummy or try a different method of sleep training.
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd
PU/PD and Paci Use. Why they don't mix.
The dirty dozen:  12 reasons PU/PD won't work
Does shh/pat work for her? This can be done with a dummy and in the cot.

Ali



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Offline ~Sara~

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 16:56:47 PM »
Just wanted to show you a really neat poll that was taken a while back amongst BW moms:
Night Feeds and the Breast Fed Baby

So, your LO is definitely in the average range of still needing a night feed :)
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Offline NikNik

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 09:57:49 AM »
Here is how the last few days have gone-

3 days ago (Best day)
E 0630
A
S 0815-1000  Woke after 35 minutes but able to get back to sleep with shh/pat, modified PU/PD
E 1025
A
S 1115-1245 Slept through on her own
A
E 1415
S 1430-1510 Resettled easily but only slept until 1525 then wide awake
A
E 1700 (solids)
A
E 1745 Cluster feed before bed
S 1815 Went to sleep without help
Night waking are in my last post so I won't repost them

2 days ago
Awake 0720
E 0730
A
S 0855-0910 then shh/pat 0925-1005
A
E 1130
A
S 1220-1325
A
E 1430 Early for her to eat but could not distract her, but then didn't eat well
A
S 1540-1615
E 1700 Solids
A
E 1750 BF before bed
S 1815 Then woke several times until 2130 when I fed her again, asleep after that

Yesterday- back to 45 minute naps
Woke at 0800
E 0815
A
S 1000-1045
A
E 1200
A
S 1300-1340 Went to sleep on her own in crib, but only slept 40 minutes
A
E 1550
A
S 1600-1625
A
E 1700 Solids
A
E 1750 Cluster feed
S 1830 Again needed to be resettled 3 times before 1930

Last night:
NW#1 2230- BF
NW#2 0300- stayed asleep by 0345
NW#3 0450 BF- put down awake after feed and she got herself to sleep but...
EW 0540 Too tired, DH tried to resettle but she ended up in bed with us

Sorry to post so much but this is how things keep going for us. A really good day, a average day, a not so good day and then disaster. Today was the disaster- very short naps today- average of 30 minutes and a OT mess by bedtime.
I know the key to all of this is daytime sleep but I don't know how to get there. As you can see, some days are fine, some days I can resettle, some days nothing goes right. I am so tired- and extending naps takes so much energy- especially when you are dealing with a wide awake baby who could not be less interested in going back to sleep.
Finally, I know the dummy is a prop and I want to wean it, but I am not sure how to start. Shh/pat does work sometimes, but generally not in the middle of the night, and it is also hard to do while trying to keep the dummy in her mouth. Even if she is not crying, when she is awake she usually spits the dummy out then she very rarely will go back to sleep. I will find her trying to put the dummy back in (but she lacks the coordination) or on her hands and knees face planting onto her dummy (funny- but not conducive to sleep). It is these times, when she is not really crying, but fussing really loudly, that I don't know what to do. Do I let her fuss until she cries? Am I going in and rescuing her too early? If I go into her and she stops crying right away- then what? Leave her again? When I do this, then she starts to cry and put her arms out to me. I am at a loss.
After I read your response, I thought "OK- I am not doing it right at all- I quit" and I think she can sense when I am off because it is when I most need sleep that she barely sleeps all day.

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2011, 22:15:42 PM »
You are not doing it all wrong. Please don't think that. You are doing well to re-settle her for some of the naps so that is definitely a good thing.
I suspect she is in a UT/OT cycle. Some of her A times look a little short which may be why some of her naps are 45mins and she is not tired enough to go back to sleep But then after a 45min nap she will need a shorter than normal A time to stop her getting OT otherwise her next nap will be shorter still although probably easier to extend than an UT nap.
At her age I would be tempted to start her day with an A time of 2hr-2hr15 unless she has had a really bad night. See if that gives you a longer nap or at least one you can extend if she wakes early. Then if she manages a nap of 1hr+ (either with or without your help) I would give her another 2hr+ A time. If any of her naps are less than 1hr I would reduce that A time by 15-30mins to avoid OT for the next nap.
Even on that first good day she had a really long A time before BT which probably led to her waking several times overnight due to being OT and having all the NWs.
Ideally on a 4hr EASY you want to be aiming for:
1st A = 2hr-2hr15
Nap 1 = 1.5-2hrs
2nd A = 2hr-2hr15
Nap 2 = 1.5-2hrs
3rd A = 2hr-2hr15
Nap 3 (CN) = 45mins
Last A = 1.5hrs - 1hr45

At this age you can wean the dummy and sleep train with PUPD. Here is a link on how to do with appropriately for her age.
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

What do you think? 



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Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 22:23:24 PM »
((HUGS)) we were in a mess for a few months right around this time, and also have the good/bad/disaster days....though things are not perfect now (far from it at the moment) they do improve and things get less unpredictable. :)

Cant offer much advice but can offer support, you are doing a fantastic job :)
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DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

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Offline NikNik

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 01:29:12 AM »
Thanks guys. I really need the support. As for weaning the dummy- I am so scared :) It is the only thing I know to sooth her, but I guess that right there is screaming PROP, isn't it?
I would like to get your opinion on something else- the other night DH and I went out and left DD at a friends house. We left them with a bottle of 180 mls and thought they would probably not need it as she was asleep in her portacot before we left and were going to be back before 10 (but she sometimes wakes before 10 for her DF). Anyway, when we got back, they said that she woke at 830 and they could get her back to sleep, but she kept waking up so at about 900 they gave the bottle and she downed it and wanted more. I had fed her at 600, just before bedtime, so she really shouldn't have been that hungry. Now I am wondering if my supply has gotten too low- I have been really run down and now have a cold- and maybe that is the reason for all the NW? What do you think? The other thing that I have noticed is a few times in the past couple of weeks, she has gone to bed fairly well but then wakes every 10-20 minutes, cries out, and needs to be resettled. She can often be resettled by shh/pat or sometimes just putting a hand on her and she's back to sleep- but then wakes up and cries out in another 10-20 minutes. Last night she did this until 730 and then was out until 10. (She also woke up at 2am, 4am and 5 am) My first thought was she was still hungry when she went to bed but she gets solids at 5 then a top up feed at around 6, so I don't think she should be waking up from hunger. Do you think it could be silent reflux or stomach ache from the solids? I am going to the doctor tomorrow to ask him about it as well. This morning I could not get her to go to sleep in her cot- a soon as I picked her up she went to sleep on my shoulder, as soon as I laid her down she cried- reflux or just wants to be held? She does this on occasion but not for every sleep, in fact it is quite rare that it happens. Also- she is very happy during the day, but I have noticed she has been doing a grunting thing lately.
Final question (for this post anyway) She almost never wakes up at the same time in the morning. Yesterday it was 630, today 800. Since she is so many times a night, I have been reluctant to wake her before she is ready- both for her sleep and my own- but do you think this could help her routine get a bit more on track?
Thanks again for your help.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 02:25:21 AM »
mmm we had a massive GS around this time...I thought my milk supply was low...just a thought :P
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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 23:00:39 PM »
I don't have any personal experience with reflux but here is a link that should help you decide if she may have reflux.
Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Feel free to post on that boardif you have any specific questions about reflux. The ladies will be able to help you. And of course see what your dr says.
Supply can be affected by being run down. If you suspect this make sure you drink lots of water and eat at regular intervals. I found oats very helpful for boosting my supply and fenugreek is a supplement you may wish to look into.



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Offline NikNik

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 01:17:04 AM »
Hi ladies,
Wanted to update and get your opinions on a few things. We started PU/PD on 2 days ago to try to sort sleep issues and to wean the dummy. So far so good with the dummy, she is actually probably going to sleep better without it and I am less frustrated because I don't have to keep trying to hold thing thing in while she is crying. As far as the sleep though still a bit all over the place. She is having EW that I can't quite seem to figure out. She is also still waking up between 9pm-11pm and again between 1am-3am. I have gone back to feeding her both times if it has been at least 4 hours since last feed. But then in the early morning I don't know what to do. So yesterday, she woke up at 5:40 am- I would like her to sleep until at least 6, but I thought close enough so i got her up for the day but then she started showing tired signs at 630 where normally she can go around 2 hours before first nap. I tried to keep her up until after 7 but I think that was a mistake because we had OT naps all day. Today she woke at 445 and I did PU/PD for 35 minutes but then she woke up 20 minutes later (5:36) so again I got her up and started the day. She was sleepy still but smiling but started yawning at 615 so this time I put her back down. She slept for 55 minutes then had 2 hours awake time and went down really well for nap #2. Only problem here is that her EAS is completely screwy already, with the E coming 10 minutes before S. What do you think?

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Re: Help- OT baby, OT mommy!!
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 22:52:35 PM »
How did last night go? Did she have the same NWs?
If you feed her at the 5.40 waking would she go back down?
It doesn't matter if while your getting things sorted her routine is more AEAS etc. as long as there is a break between the E and the S so she doesn't see it as part of the winddown or fall asleep feeding.



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