Questions about future weaning of rocking

[eva026]

Hi there,

DD is not the best napper and I have tried just about everything to help her with that. HTTJ worked for a bit and then it suddenly didn't so I have come to terms with the fact that this is developmental and hopefully one day she will be able to sleep longer than 40min on her own.

At the moment I am putting her to sleep by rocking. It started a little while after the nap problems began because she would throw a fit every time I tried to put her to sleep.
Now, as soon as she catches on to the fact that nap time is coming, she starts yelling her head off. We have no wind down because that just makes her flip out sooner. Right now I just swaddle her, take her in my arms, put a muslin over her eyes and gently rock or bounce her sitting on the edge of the bed. She yells the whole time, till suddenly she is asleep. So there is no "relaxed gaze" during which I can pop her in her crib and if I just swaddle and leave her she doesn't sleep at all.
There are no sleep cues to speak of so I have to watch the clock with her and adjust her As to her nap times. Her A time at the moment is heading towards 1.45h.

Anyway, she falls asleep and then I can put her down for about 30 min. After 30min I come back in and pick her up (just lying next to her doesn't work). here's the strange part, no jolts come. Anywhere between 30-50min she just starts fighting the swaddle, spitting out her dummy and crying out. Her eyes are closed through the whole thing (assume she is still sleeping) so when I start rocking her again I can sometimes get her to calm down and sleep through another cycle. If I can't calm her, her eyes fly open and that's that.

I have been doing this for 2 naps a day and leaving her to wake for the other 2, unless we have a crazy OT day, during which I just let her sleep on me (I've tried lying next to her but it doesn't work)

I know she uses me as a prop and this will pose a problem in Sept when I go back to work, but nothing else works so I am ok with doing it for now.

I'm wondering if there is any thing I can do now in order to make weaning the rocking easier in the future? I started doing a rock/pat but I'm worried that this will just create a double prop and make it 2 as hard to wean. Right now I rock only the minimum required to get her to sleep but sometimes the minimum is a good 15min.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!!

[becj86]

Can you reduce the rocking to holding, then gradually put her down more and more awake and calm to sleep in the cot?

If she's fighting the swaddle, how does she go without it? She may be trying to settle herself...

[eva026]

Ah bec.... you must be thinking "oh no, not her again!"

I tried just holding but does nothing, except if I walk around with her in my arms but that's the same as rocking. Actually it works better than rocking but I only use it as a last resort because I can't imagine carrying around a 10kg toddler.
We started with the walking, I managed to wean it to rocking lol

The swaddle is a new thing actually. It helps me more than her I think because without it there is just no way I can hold her down as both her legs and arms start flying around and she is awake in seconds.
It's like her body has a mind of it's own. She is sleeping peacefully and then her legs go up, then both arms start flying around and then she starts crying like someone is waking her and she really doesn't want to. Last of all her eyes fly open. On the naps I leave her she generally wakes after 40min and that's it.

DH thinks I should just rock her to sleep and then leave her to sleep however long she sleeps because now I'm getting her addicted to re-rocking to sleep during the transition.
Patting would work the same, no?

At night she sleeps in a sleep sack and puts herself to sleep at BT. After the NF I swaddle her again because from 6am she would do the flying arm thing again and wake herself. Now she sleeps till 8am no problem.

I'm thinking I'll try to wean the swaddle in Sept when she will be over 6 months old and there are fewer naps but I'm a bit worried that by then it will be too late because she will NEED the rocking to sleep.

*sigh* and while I was pregnant I swore that I wouldn't be one of those mothers that rock their kids and here I am, not only rocking but also holding her through many naps.

[eva026]

gradually put her down more and more awake and calm to sleep in the cot

Yeah so... there is no calm. It's full on crying, scratching (if not swaddled) and kicking till suddenly silence and she is sleeping.

[Ima shel Alon]

I know she uses me as a prop and this will pose a problem in Sept when I go back to work, but nothing else works so I am ok with doing it for now.

I actually think that it's not that other things don't work but that this is how she got used to fall asleep and if you want you could help her learn how to do it. I am warning you it's not easy, there will be crying and maybe not much sleep, but Tracey gave us wonderful tools to help our LO go to sleep more independently.
Don't think that I am all perfect, I fed to sleep till a few weeks ago, but I was always ok with it and I did it because I knew it's right for my DS (he is a very hungry boy and needs a lot of calories during the day), but the reason that I am suggesting to you to try and untie the rocking is because it will get more and more difficult as she becomes bigger and your poor poor back...
There was a time for us with big sleep problems at night and pat/shh has been a life savor. It took some days to implement but we were consistent as hell and it worked. DS was around the same age as your LO is now. I always think that if pat/shh worked on my DS it can work on any baby because he is very stubborn little guy, I thought I'll never get any sleep out of him
You can also have a look here: Three-day magic: The ABC cure for Accidental Parenting (inc. Troubleshooter)

Pat/shh also usually don't become props: Why are Shush Pat and PU/PD not props?

I am not saying that there is a right way, but I do think that you need to be happy with the way you put your LO to sleep.
I am here if you have more questions.

[Hedgehog17]

I would always gently rock and hum to DS to get him to go down for naps 

As he got closer to 6mo he needed it less and less, so at 6mo I was able to put him down with no rocking or humming and he would self-settle happily. Since then he's been fine!

You may find your DD needs less help from you as time goes on, and you will be able to wean the rocking. I never had any success with shh-pat - he cried so loudly he couldn't hear me shhing  Humming a soothing song worked much better for us 

hth 

[eva026]

I've read the trouble shooter and that's why I introduced the rock/pat about a week ago, although I must admit I'm not always consistent with remembering to pat when she is screeching in my ear. I figured that I'd do the rock/pat and in the future maybe it will be possible to rock for shorter and shorter times and eventually replace it with just pats.
It's kind of the way I weaned her off walking around to get her to sleep, now I only use it if she gets hysterical.

I'm torn between weaning her now and waiting till she is older.
In favour of weaning now, is that later it may be harder.
In favour of weaning later is that there will be fewer naps to deal with and, like Hedgehog17 said, maybe she will outgrow it.

And what do I do when she wakes at the 40min mark every time? Right now I try rock her to sleep, if that doesn't work I just carry on with a shorter A.
Should I try rock/pat her to sleep or just leave her to wake?

I swear this LO has sleep trained me!!!
For the first 10 weeks she was an angel baby and we did everything by the book, then she suddenly woke up to the world and decided that napping is a waste of time and if mommy wants her to sleep during the day, it will be on her terms.

[Ima shel Alon]

It is only you who has the answer when and how to do things
I say go with your mummy gut feeling, and I mean it seriously.
When she wakes up early from a nap you can do exactly what you are doing, try to settle her with whatever you do to settle her in the first place for a nap and if that doesn't work you start A time and maybe it's better to keep it shorter so she doesn't get OT.

[becj86]

What's her temperament?
What's your pre-nap/pre-bed wind down?

Totally agree with Ima - go with your mummy-instinct, its very powerful. FWIW, I sometimes still hold DS to sleep when he's teething/ill and he's 10kg now. I couldn't imagine doing it when he was 5kg, but I do it now... Most of the time, I can put him into bed and he'll go to sleep on his own which is great but sometimes it just doesn't happen. I also would mention that DS slept on me or in the pram for all naps til 3.5 months and was an independent sleeper at 4.5 with little crying. I did have a few mad weeks of shush/patting him while he screamed when he was 5/6 weeks old but then I relaxed about it again and he slept better. Stick with your EAS routine and do the S how you need to. When you're ready to sleep train, we can help you with suggestions as to how. If you keep her well rested, it will be so much easier

[eva026]

She is a texbook/spirited with a touch of grumpy. It really depends on the day. Sometimes I'd even say she's an angel, not counting nap times.
We don't have a nap time wind down any more because it just made her start screaming sooner. At the moment I just start quiet play with her and then either swaddle her in a swaddle blanket or just stick her in a normal blanket if I plan the hold her through most of the nap, stick a muslin over her eyes to block out stimulation and start rocking while she is screaming.

I honestly wonder if I was born with a mummy instinct....
Especially after the day we had yesterday. DD had to come with us to a long day of running errands and then a family party at the in-laws. She'd only napped 40 min at home before. By 5pm she has only had 1 20min nap in the car so when we arrived at the family I was frantic to get her to nap just a little to I walked her around and around the house and she napped another 20 min. Everyone was on at me about how I should put her down and leave her but I didn't want to because after a day of practically no sleep at all, there was no way she'd just fall asleep and keep sleeping.
I heard lots of comments about how I have spoilt her and now we will have a huge problem because she only sleeps in my arms etc.
At 7pm I wanted to leave to get DD a bath and in bed by 8pm and the comments started again. How I should just bath her and put her down there. Well I tried....she slept 20 min again. And I heard that's it's my fault because I have gotten her used to sleeping only in her bed and with blackout blinds and we'll never go on holiday because she will only be able to sleep at home.
I tried to explain that when summer started and it was light till 10pm and sunrise at 4am, she would take ages to fall asleep and after her NF, she'd be ready to start the day, so that's why I insisted on the blackout blinds. Apparently she would have gotten used to the light if I hadn't put the blinds up....
You see in their family there hasn't been a single 40min napper and all the kids slept well without blinds so that's why they all think I have gotten her used to bad things: only sleeping in the dark and only sleeping 40 min if not in my arms.
I honestly feel like one giant AP! Maybe I have been doing it all wrong and it is my fault that she doesn't sleep when we are out?

It's all causing problems between DH and me because he also agrees that I have gotten her used to only sleeping in the dark and napping in my arms.

I wanted to gradually wean her from rocking (I don't know what to do about only sleeping in the dark at night) by introducing the pat now and slowly rock her less and pat her more but I now think I have to do this sooner because I can't take all the comments and fighting with DH any more.

At the moment I rock her gently and pat her bum in my arms, wait till she stops crying (usually that means she is sleeping), stop rocking but carry on patting another 10min. If she wakes and the crying starts again, I start rocking again till she is calm, then stop.
Next I put her down in our bed and after 30 min I go in and pick her up again. When she starts struggling and crying (in her sleep) I start to rock pat again and carry on till she is calm. Like before, I restart if she acts up again.

Is this ok for now as the 1st step?

[becj86]

When does she start screaming?
What's her EASY?

Trust me, the mummy-instinct is there. It may not make itself known too often (mine doesn't ) but it is there.

I asked about the wind down, going to tell you to do away with it if you had one

Fret not about silly mis-informed comments. She is a tiny baby. I will say that DS does sleep on his own in broad daylight for naps, so darkness is not always required, even for spiriteds, but I think we'd have some issues if it was still light at 10pm and then only dark for 6hr...

Maybe I have been doing it all wrong and it is my fault that she doesn't sleep when we are out?

My mum and MIL had me feeling like a failure when DS was 4 months old too, constantly commenting on what I wasn't doing right... now they both acknowledge that I'm a good mum and I know DS well and meet his needs in a way that works for him and me & DH, all as a family.

Why wouldn't she sleep while she's been out running errands and visiting people? OVERSTIMULATION!!! and probably picking up on your insecurity and nervousness re: sleep too. We had the same issues with DS when he was a great sleeper at around 6 months and we visited IL's at their hotel and DS would. not. sleep. He was too hyped up and really OT and just wouldn't sleep - he was APOP-proof at that time too. They thought I was crackers for wanting to put him down for a sleep because he was 'so happy, just leave him, stop ruining his fun' He was OT and OS and the raucous laughter and screaming were signs of that but they didn't get it.

From your descriptions, I'm not sure the rocking is really making her go to sleep, yk? What do you think?

[eva026]

She starts screaming as soon as she realises that I want to put her down. So either when she sees the swaddle or when I stick a dummy in her mouth and a cloth over her head.

Although I must say that for the first morning nap she has just gone down rock free - just pat:) But then she was surprisingly calm this morning and only fussed a bit while being swaddled.
During the day I don't close the blinds either because it doesn't help with the naps and I really don't want a baby that not only needs the dark to sleep at night but can only nap in the dark too! Nightmare!

They thought I was crackers for wanting to put him down for a sleep because he was 'so happy, just leave him, stop ruining his fun'

Exactly! Everyone was like "so what if he hasn't napped at all today, she looks happy and isn't crying so leave her be. If she doesn't sleep during the day she will be so tired and sleep well at night" and they were looking at me like I was crazy for running around trying to make her nap.
She ended up waking every 3h at night, so I was right in being so desperate for her to sleep during the day!

From your descriptions, I'm not sure the rocking is really making her go to sleep, yk? What do you think?

You think that if I just hold her it would do the trick? Honestly since the nap problems started, I haven't tried that. I've been too chicken. When the yelling escalates I just rock harder:) nuts huh?

[becj86]

She ended up waking every 3h at night, so I was right in being so desperate for her to sleep during the day!

You are the one who gets up to her when she wakes at night, right? Then YOU and YOU ONLY have any say in what happens to her routine during the day. I said this quite emphatically to DH when DS was 7 months old and he finally got it (might also have slammed the front door and gone for a walk ). As for people who think LO will sleep better at night for being exhausted, they're the ones who are nuts!! They either haven't experienced it or have forgotten.

She starts screaming as soon as she realises that I want to put her down.

This suggests she's not tired yet. At this age, DS (even though he's spirited), would sleep happily if I got him in his sleep window. Either side and it was a nightmare, though... What's her A time at the moment?

You think that if I just hold her it would do the trick? Honestly since the nap problems started, I haven't tried that. I've been too chicken. When the yelling escalates I just rock harder:)

Yeah, I think just holding her would do the trick. Maybe try some soft singing or white noise so she has a sound to focus on - the idea behind shush/pat is actually that LO can focus on 2 things only - if they're concentrating on the shushing (hearing sense) and the patting (touch sense), they stop crying and relax I think you'll find that if she's well rested, this is the best time to try sleep training, age-wise. Too young to be really ingrained with habits and just old enough to not be needing constant contact with you.

[eva026]

Yawns usually come at 1h and no other tired cues after that, so I clock-watch and aim for between 1.45-2h A
Although this morning she started yawning at 1.20h and was asleep at 1.30 - 40min nap, couldn't extend but no rocking and slept on the bed

[becj86]

Yep, yawns could be boredom... what happens if you change the activity/scenery? Her A times should be pretty close to 2hr by now I'd think.