Breast as Prop?? Won't take paci and not consistent with thumb yet- 4 mo old

[FourGirlsNM]

*****Updated below in todays post! Please HELP!!!!! I need some advice badly!!!******


Ok so we are finishing up our first week of EASY and overall the last 2 days have made good progress especially with NWs. DD is 18 wks (13wks adjusted) and is seriously suck dependent to fall asleep, she has only taken the breast (has refused all bottles and pacis since about 2 months old) and unfortunately I allowed her to always fall asleep on the breast for naps and sleep until the wakenings became a serious hourly issue and have now taken control.

She cries pretty hard to suck (sounds like hunger cry but I know she is not hungry most of the time atleast) when it is sleep time, other times she is totally fine. I have tried introducing different types of pacis again ( I know a prop for a prop but I want to give her sucking oppurtunity) and triying to encourage finger/thumb sucking also but she is really inconsistent about finding it and it does not seem fulfilling to her the majority of the time. I also have introduced a lovey and she does lick and suck on the fabric ball-head. I need to like scream a shhhhhh and pat really hard at all go to sleep times including NW for like 10-15 minutes in order to get her to fall asleep. My wrists are KILLING ME!!!

Any advice? Is it just going to take more time? Am I being unreasonable to expect more progress after only 1 week? Am I right that this seems like a prop? Oh and I have her on a 3 hr EASY right now, tried 3.5hr for a few days at first but pulled it back. She only cat naps in the mornings and the last 2 days finally has started a longer afternoon nap. I try to keep A to 1.5hrs and only let her nurse to sleep one time a day (and night feeds) if I am desperate for her to get some sleep. I have to constantly adjust her times due to the cat naps but trying to keep the feedings at least consistent at about 3 hrs apart. Thank you!

[Shiv52]

{{{hugs}}}

Mine were both very sucky babies.  With DD1 she used me as a prop until 4 months but we had introduced a paci at 3 months and I was consistent with it.  I found giving her practice sucking it through her A time helped her get used to it as initially she was refusing it altogether. 

Sounds like you have made good progress so far.   

Have you tried doing a longer winddown and helping her get more drowsy in arms and then putting her down nearly asleep and then just ssh-patting on to sleep.  then you can work on getting her down more and more awake.

3 hourly feeds is totally fine for her age and BFing. 

[FourGirlsNM]

Thanks for the response! I actually have been trying to give her the paci during A times! She will let it in her mouth and occasionally suck it but wants nothing to do with it when she is upset! I will keep trying. Today she has had to cry a LOT for naps, I have done some pu/pd and sh/pat but actually decided to go more the pu/pd route and using my voice and only some sh/pat for a couple days to see if we can get over this hump, she cries HARD but only takes about 10 minutes. Early morning she can not stay asleep unless I sh/pat her now, so it is like it has become a prop. Otherwise she wakes every 10 minutes!!!! This goes on starting like an hour after her 1am-ish feed for a couple hours at a time! BRUTAL! After doing it this afternoon she napped for 2+ hrs and would cry out after 45mins or so and but put her self back to sleep (once or twice I said, sshhh, I was napping as well).
We just need to get over this hump!!!!!!!

Question: Should doing PU/PD during daytime naps and bedtime cross over to helping with those early morning wake ups? Or will I have to let her cry and do PU/PD at that time as well to be consistent. I just hate to take the chance at waking my DD1.

[FourGirlsNM]

Well, it has now been over a month since the every 2 hour wakenings after midnight and almost 2 weeks since I stopped letting her fall asleep on the breast (99% of the time), unless it is a NF and she just falls asleep eating. She is still waking up rooting desperately after 45min-2hrs and I just don't know what more to do. i sh/pat her when she awakens and it has been less than 3-4 hrs since last NF, sometimes we get full blown crying for 10-30 minutes. I just don't get it, shouldn't she have gotten it by now?

Could she genuinely be hungry? I feed her every 3 hours during the day (she typically only feeds from one side and is done in about 6 minutes, occasionally will feed from other side too but then typically ends up spitting up heavily), she is on reflux meds for past week. Yesterday I gave her a small amount of rice cereal with BM and will try that 1-2x a day and see if that makes a difference?? But it doesn't seem like hunger if it gets to every 45 minutes, sometimes even every 15 minutes she wakes rooting desperately. I think she REALLY WANTS to suck to sleep, I did not imagine that breaking this habit could take more than 2 weeks??? I have been really consistent (especially considering how sleep deprived I am!).

Thoughts? Please help, even if even to say you went through something similar and it will pass?? I am so afraid this could go on for another couple months!!! I do have to go back to work in 2 months and NEED to be sleeping better by then!!! TIA!

[Shiv52]

Hugs hun xx

I  was just reading back at your posts and was about to ask if reflux was an issue and i see it is.  All those wakings an crying and wanting to suck to sleep are classic symptoms that reflux is NOT under control.   And given how consistent you have been i do think the issue is the reflux.   What happens is they want to feed regularly as the milk soothes them and they are refluxing.   

What meds is she on?  IS he cot inclined? 

[FourGirlsNM]

Hi Thank you so much for responding as I have been going CRAZY!  She is on Zantac 1.5ml 2x a day, today has been a week since she started it. I do have a blanket stuffed under the head side of her bassinet, the mattress is so thin that it is only somewhat helpful in doing an even incline. I am trying to do all the other things that you are supposed to do around feeding- keeping her upright after, etc.

Sometimes she can't even last 3 hours between daytime feeds either, other times she is okay for 3.5hrs. I have been wanting to gradually move her to a 3.5hr EASY but her eating is so inconsistent. I did start rice cereal a few days ago in hopes that it would help if it is a hunger issue, so far no change. Also her morning naps are still all catnaps and usually now she takes a 1.5-2.5hr afternoon nap so her schedule is constantly changing, I am focusing on 3 hrs between feeds and 1.5-1.75 hours A times.

The interesting thing is that I really think the suck to sleep habit is broken, she is able to fall asleep without sucking most of the time now, although when struggling still needs the sh/pat. I started PU/PD last night since I am desperate for some overnight changes. Bedtime she started out overtired cause she wouldn't catnap so was over 2 hrs A time by the time we started bedtime feed and routine. Did need some PU/PD and sh/pat but asleep in about 20 minutes, asleep by 630pm.
Awakenings looked like this:
9:45 NW/NF (barely ate and fell asleep) (sometimes this first wakening is not until 11p or midnight and then the 2hr wakenings start after that)
11:40p NW/NF (desperate to get to the breast and ate full feed)
1:30a NW when I picked her up she was sucking my neck and cheek like crazy and crying, I did not feed, did sh/pat and PU/PD, extremely hard to settle and didn't fall back to sleep for over an hour and then woke up 10 minutes later 2x when it was near 3am I just fed
5:30a NW, NF and then was up for about 30 minutes talking in crib, then started to cry so I sh/pat her back to bed
7:45 up for the day, woke happy.

So I only did the strict PU/PD and refusal to feed the one time but I really think that she was actually hungry by how desperate she was to eat and that she could not settle until after I finally fed her. But how could she possibly be hungry every 2 hours over night? This has been going on for weeks so not just a GS. Or is it the reflux waking her and then she goes ahead and does a full feed? I just don't know. I suppose I should call the pediatrician back and talk some more. Do you think I shouldn't do PU/PD if there is ANY chance that she is actually hungry or uncomfortable from the reflux and just suck it up and continue to feed her every 2 hours over night and work on the sleep and spreading feeding out more during the day??? Yesterday I posted in the PU/PD support thread as well, so hoping to get some feedback there as well.

[laurenchant3e]

Two suggestions:  Try chiropractic for the reflux, and get a MP3 or CD recording of a vacuum cleaner so you can give your "shhh" ing a break!! 

[Shiv52]

Or is it the reflux waking her and then she goes ahead and does a full feed? I just don't know. I suppose I should call the pediatrician back and talk some more. Do you think I shouldn't do PU/PD if there is ANY chance that she is actually hungry or uncomfortable from the reflux and just suck it up and continue to feed her every 2 hours over night and work on the sleep and spreading feeding out more during the day???

I'll be honest and say I don't think any sleep training will be successful while reflux is not under control and it really doesn't seem like your LOs is.   PU/PD is NOT recommended for reflux bubs so I wouldn't do that anymore (even once it is under control)...the analogy is that of shaking a coke bottle.  So every time you are PU you aggravate the reflux then putting back down it is being aggravated again. 

I would also hold off on the rice cereal.  4 months is very young for solids and actually it can do more harm than good especially if reflux is an issue. 

With the bassinet...i put books under the legs of the head end of mine so that elevated things very well. 

I am not great with reflux meds but I do know zantac often may not be effective enough to help settle symptoms to I'll get some reflux eyes over here for you. 

{{{{hugs}}}}}

[FourGirlsNM]

Thanks for the book idea, I will do that. I guess I can do it under one side of her crib as well instead of under the mattress.

I spoke with nurse at pediatrician and she thinks that Alayna is truly hungry and not the reflux that is causing the frequent wakenings. She says since she settles quickly after feeding instead of having continued discomfort. She recommended trying to increase my milk supply and baby's daytime calories by feeding every 2 hours for a few days and see if that makes any difference. Other option is to try topping off some feeds with formula or Expressed BM, but since Alayna doesn't take a bottle I will try with a sippy cup or syringe. So going to put the sleep training on hold and focus now on seeing if hunger is getting in the way of her sleeping.

At least we made progress in getting rid of the suck/nurse to sleep habit over the past 2 weeks! And she put herself to sleep for a nap today for the first time, so I guess the past 2 weeks of consistency and trying were not a waste! I will still continue the hard work with scheduling with just more frequent feeds built in and see what happens.

Does this sound logical?

[Shiv52]

A good way to increase milk supply is to pump on empty at the end of a feed for 5 minutes each side.  I would caution against using formula at this stage because every ounce of formula you give is an oz your body doesn't know to make IYSWIM? 

I spoke with nurse at pediatrician and she thinks that Alayna is truly hungry and not the reflux that is causing the frequent wakenings. She says since she settles quickly after feeding instead of having continued discomfort.

I think a few days of feeding on cue rather than 2 hourly would be a good boost to your supply (called a baby honeymoon!) but with reflux bubs they feed frequently to soothe so i wouldn't rule it out.  I would imagine if the nurse is correct then she should then sleep for at least 3-4 hours after another feed?  So its worth a try.  The only issue i could see with continue with 2 hourly feeds is that your LO will develop a snacking habit but I do think a few days of lots of frequent feeding is worth a try. Also feeding first thing (early hours) is helpful to supply as that is when prolaction hormones are at their highest. 



Can you see your LO refluxing through the day? 

At least we made progress in getting rid of the suck/nurse to sleep habit over the past 2 weeks! And she put herself to sleep for a nap today for the first time, so I guess the past 2 weeks of consistency and trying were not a waste! I will still continue the hard work with scheduling with just more frequent feeds built in and see what happens.

Great progress hun.  Small steps and all that. 

HUgs x

[C&B&E]

fenugreek really helped up my supply v quickly
just heading to bed but will pop back tomorrow as I've got a refluxer too and I'll have a proper read through your thread x

[FourGirlsNM]

IKWYM about the formula, I will try to pump more, right now I am lazy and don't pump much at all!! I also worry about the snacking thing but I will give it a go for say 3 full days- day and night on demand, frequent feeding and if it doesn't make a difference will work again at spreading feeds and see what happens with the night feedings over the next couple weeks. I really want longer sleep stretches but also obviously can't not feed her if she is genuinely hungry! I keep telling myself, this can't last forever, eventually she will sleep better, she is an even split between textbook and angel baby aside from this sleep issue so it is totally bizarre and has to have some kind of reasonable answer.

[FourGirlsNM]

Yes! I take fenugreek tincture now, have only been taking 1x a day but I think I will increase it to 2x. Only downside is that it makes me smell like maple syrup!!!!!

[C&B&E]

I seemed to smell more like curry  !  Yes, you might need to take more - I was taking 6 capsules a day and it made a massive difference x

[Shiv52]

Honestly it doesn't last forever.  5 months was a BIG turning point here.  3 days sounds like a great idea.  If you can try and pump on empty for those 5 minutes it should really help too.

You're doing a great job  xx