Author Topic: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening  (Read 2096 times)

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Offline jzelenbrz

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Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« on: August 27, 2014, 20:12:28 pm »
We have problem with night wakening and solid food refusal. I think we need to tackle food problem first, but I’m open to any suggestions.

My daughter is 9month old and is breastfed. From day1 she breastfeeds every 1,5-3hours day&night. In every feed she never drinks “age average” amount but little more than half that amount. Consequently, she needs to eat more often to take enough (I don’t think she is a snacker though, it’s like her tummy is smaller or she doesn’t like to be full; my first son acted the same –he had reflux). She is not underweight – she is around 8-9kilos (18 pounds). I introduced solids at 5,5 month – and she was not interested in it, and she still isn’t (she got her first teeth pretty late, at 7,5 month, and is teething constantly since then). She refuses spoon completely, so I give her finger food: banana, apple, pear, carrot, rice, cucumber, dense polenta, corn, home baked millet bread… She takes 2-3 bites and is not interested afterwards. In half an hour if she finds some food – she might take too more bites. I tried to delay breastfeeding (she didn’t eat from 06 to 12h) but it didn’t make a difference.
With that kind of nourishment, it’s pretty hard to have routine, you might guess.
Also, I’m not confident starting a sleep training (cutting out night feedings) because she has 1/3 of her food intake at night. She goes to sleep at 8pm, and wakes up 3 or 4 times (around 11pm, 2/3am, 4/5am and 6/7am). I’m tired – so I do some accidental parenting and take her in my bad and breastfeed her to sleep. She has 2-3 naps (around 9/10am, 1/2pm and 5pm) – and by day is falling to sleep in trolley, car, arms, breasts, with pacifier/without it… and sleeps 45min-1,5/2h.

Do you have any suggestions how to regulate eating or what to do when she wants to be breastfed at night? Is this the right time to start sleep training? Help!

Tnx!

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 01:13:21 am »
Bearing in mind that I have mixed fed all my kids bm and formula I would have to say that at that age and weight she is probably snacking for feeds...until one year they need milk as the main source of nutrition so I would not be hugely worried about solids intake quite yet but for sure the milk feeds could be consolidated, esp at night (either by deciding to do only to do x number of feeds a night or pick a time and settle her other ways before then and if she wakes after that time then feed - many bf babies do take a nf for longer than ff ones). Also at that age most babies are on two naps a day, sometimes with one shorter and one longer as they head into one nap territory. Does she ever sleep independently? Is she up for the day at 6/7?
Heidi




Offline Martini~

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 07:40:09 am »
Ok, I think it will be more difficult for you to tackle on one problem as they are all connected so vicious cycle. The more milk your DD takes at night, the less she will take during day. I also think that with short naps, it's more difficult to establish longer breaks between feeds so that also may help. Without sleep training you will be using BF at night as prop and that also doesn't help. In terms of solids, is your DD is all the time full of milk, she may not be interested in any food. And her spoon refusal might also be connected with her being not hungry.

I would start from tackling the night and sleep training together. So:
- pick a day and decide that you will not feed her 3/4 times but let say 2 times; she is 9mo so she will not starve:)
- you may decide that you will not feed her if 4h mark has not yet passed or just feed her on first 2 NW and use any other method to settle her afterwards
- decide on the sleep training method you will use to settle her down other than BF
- be prepared for couple of unsettled nights, OT baby during day - but bear in mind that overall that should help her as if she learns how to resettle at night her overnight sleep will become more regenerative

When you tackle the nights feeds, her first morning feed should be bigger so I would start stretching 3-4h break between this and next feed. I would also offer solids just after the milk or closely after so to make sure she is really full and teach her to make her tummy full than have some break for digestion (feeding too frequently like every 1-2h is not good for digestion). You may start from shorter breaks like 2-3h and extend that time every couple of days so the change is slow and both your DD and your breasts have time to adjust.

What kind of solids have you offered to your DD?
~Marta

Offline jzelenbrz

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 19:51:15 pm »
Tnx for posting!

As you both suggested, i will cut out 1 or 2 nf.
When she was 1,5 month old, I introduced dream feeding around 23. Now she is waking at 23. Do you suggest to cut out that df or to move it earlier every night?
I'll try to longer her naps to 1,5/2 hours.


Also at that age most babies are on two naps a day, sometimes with one shorter and one longer as they head into one nap territory. Does she ever sleep independently? Is she up for the day at 6/7?
Sometimes she is on two naps a day, and sometimes she takes catnap at 5pm. Sometimes she falls a sleep "independently" (without my help, pacifier od moving prop) - in trolley when we are in playground with my son. Lately , in the evening I put her in her crib - she talks, stands and mantra cries; i give her pacifier and give her a little head pat and she falls a sleep. She was wakening at 7am regularly, but lately (last two weeks , after our trip) she is awake at 6am.


sometimes she is on 2 naps a day, and sometimes she cutnaps at 17. he slle
What kind of solids have you offered to your DD?

Like I sad, she is not a spoon fan, so I don't blend food - i give her bite pieces or give her to eat by her self.
I started with apple, pear, rice, banana...

So far I have introduced:
banana, pear, avocado, apple, peach, raspberry
brown rice, millet, corn grits, corn pasta, amaranth
potato, carrots, zucchini, cucumber
chicken, turkey, fish-anchovy
flay seeds, chia
We tried to give her chicken soup, but no success..

Offline *Ali*

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 20:07:50 pm »
You will probably find helping her learn to sleep independently in the daytime will help her be more settled at night as she will know how to soothe herself back to sleep when she stirs instead of looking for the breast which it sounds like is what she does now. By independently I mean in a crib without you in the room and she soothes herself to sleep. We wouldn't consider in the buggy to be independent.

I also think it would help us to see a typical day laid out in EAS format so we can see how long she is awake and asleep between naps and feeds. I'm finding it hard to picture what is happening if she is having a NF at 6/7am and then napping again already by 9/10am. Is she going back to sleep after that feed at 6/7am or did you mean that is when you start your day?
For example:
7.00 WU and E (BF)
8.00 solids (few bites banana)
9.00 E
10.00 S 45 mins etc.
And so on

Just wondering if she may need more A time before her naps to get to two longer naps rather than sometimes needing 3.

Also, when you say she is drinking only half the age average amount how do you know this? Are you expressing and giving it in a bottle or just guessing based on how long she feeds for or something? Average varies greatly in BF babies and anything from 19oz to 30oz a day can be normal.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jzelenbrz

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 08:17:09 am »

I also think it would help us to see a typical day laid out in EAS format

Also, when you say she is drinking only half the age average amount how do you know this? Average varies greatly in BF babies and anything from 19oz to 30oz a day can be normal.


As I mentioned, we don’t have steady routine, but this is how it looks last few days:

Around 5:30am she is awake, but playing/standing (I’m sleeping):
6am – E – BF (she snaked and didn’t go back to sleep)
6:30am – A – we get out of the bed, she is playing while I make breakfast
7:30/8am – E – solids (today she eat 8 spoons!   she eat what we did – pureed: corn groat, cooked beetroot, banana, chia seed; yesterday she had pear – pureed and finger food, but didn’t eat it at all) + BF
8:30am – A – little more playing with brother and then we take son into a nursery, do some shopping at market. Usually she falls asleep in buggy.
9:30am – S – buggy (1-1,5h) – she is evidently tired, so even if we stay at home and try to have activity time – she is whining and only wants to be cried, so I put her to sleep
11:30am – E – solids (yesterday she had chicken soap with millet, carrot and chicken meat – I gave her carrot and meat as finger food, an tried to trick her to take few spoons of pureed mixture; day before she had race and zucchini (3 bites), day before few 3 bites of cucumber and 2 bites of homemade bread) + BF
12am – A – playing
(Sometimes 1:30 – E – BF to sleep)
2pm – S (1-1,5h) – she falls asleep in grandmas hands in 5minutes, and slept in crib
3:30 – E – BF
4pm – A – we pick up son in nursery and then go to playground (she is very active; is climbing, crawling, like to interact with other children)
5:30/6pm – E – BF (we are still in playground and she is sleepy and whining)
(Sometimes 5:45/6:15pm – S – 30min)
7pm- E – BF
7.30 – AS – bath, book, sleep
11pm – E – BF
3am – E – BF
4.30 – E – BF

Can you tell me what should be her routine at 9 month?


Also, when you say she is drinking only half the age average amount how do you know this? Are you expressing and giving it in a bottle or just guessing based on how long she feeds for or something? Average varies greatly in BF babies and anything from 19oz to 30oz a day can be normal.

-   She (as my son) – is bf only for 4-6 min from day one; he had minor reflux
-   She have no interest in taking both side
-   I did some yield, and if I assume that that is 2/3 of amount she can bf – this is too little. I did it yesterday again to provide this info – i pumped 120ml (4oz), but she took only 95ml (3oz)



Offline *Ali*

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 21:55:18 pm »
Here is a link to some example routines at 9mo. chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months
I think both of mine were doing 2 long naps of 1.5hrs and A times of 3 or 3.5hrs or so.

Looking at your routine there are just a few things that jump out at me. Are you feeding her solids and then BFing immediately after at the 8 and 11.30 feeds? If so maybe switching to BF first would help her take more. Or would she go to sleep for her first nap without a feed at 8am and then take a fuller BF when she wakes at 11?
Her day is really long at 14hrs+ so when she gets sleepy in the playground around 5.30-6pm she is probably ready to go to sleep for the night. Obviously hard to resolve though if you aren't getting home until later.
Have you tried an earlier BT? Maybe getting in and putting her straight to bed so she is asleep 6.30 or 7 if you can't manage earlier due to schedules?
Have you tried feeding her at 5.30 as soon as she wakes and putting her straight back to sleep?

Regarding the feeding, a yield is really unreliable as a measure of what your LO is taking. Breastfeeding research has moved on significantly since the BW books were written and we like to think it is one area where Tracy would have updated her advice had she still been with us. It sounds a like you respond well to the pump though and even going on a yield test that would suggest since you can pump 4oz your LO could extract 5ozs which is ample.
Just because she only took 3ozs from the bottle yesterday doesn't mean that is all she takes at each feed but if it were since she is having 7BFs in the day and 3 overnight she would be having 21oz in the day and another 9 oz at night which is the top end of the normal range of total breast milk intake in 24hrs. The more feeds she has the less she will take at each feed so if you can amalgamate some of those feeds then she should take a little more at each sitting.

I suspect what is happening is she is getting OT from the long day and waking at night because she is restless. Then because she cannot self-soothe herself back to sleep she is looking for the breast and therefore in the habit of eating little and often. If it were me I would try to tackle the OT with an earlier BT and cutting out the CN and teach her to settle herself to sleep in the cot using shh pat or PUPD. If you could try to have her falling asleep for that second nap and at BT by herself in the cot then I think she could transfer those skills to the NWs if you then tackle those. What do you think?
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jzelenbrz

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 21:52:21 pm »
Ali ,
tnx for posting.

I'll modify her schedule according to link you sent me.


Looking at your routine there are just a few things that jump out at me. Are you feeding her solids and then BFing immediately after at the 8 and 11.30 feeds? If so maybe switching to BF first would help her take more. Or would she go to sleep for her first nap without a feed at 8am and then take a fuller BF when she wakes at 11?

I usually BF after solids, but few times I did the opposite (when she id evidently to irritated) - and she eat the same: non or little.
She "insist" to be fed before 10am. The other day I skipped it - and when she woke up, at 12 - she was too hungry, screaming to be bf.


Her day is really long at 14hrs+ so when she gets sleepy in the playground around 5.30-6pm she is probably ready to go to sleep for the night. Obviously hard to resolve though if you aren't getting home until later.
Have you tried an earlier BT? Maybe getting in and putting her straight to bed so she is asleep 6.30 or 7 if you can't manage earlier due to schedules? Have you tried feeding her at 5.30 as soon as she wakes and putting her straight back to sleep?


Last two days i moved bt earlier (and not to bf her to sleep nut PD+pacifier) - she falls asleep quite easy, but now she is wakening up 2 times before 23 (every hour!)
I'm desperate...
I'm planing to teach her to self soothe, but I'm scared I'm not psychologically ready to train her and listen her cry... As I mentioned, my son was SO SO bed sleeper, i'm stilll traumatized how long it took to teach him sleep (we tried shhh pat at 4mo with no success, and PU/PD at 10,5mo with some success).

- decide on the sleep training method you will use to settle her down other than BF

Martii85, and others,
could you give me advice on method you prefer in more detail?
I read the Tracys book, but when it comes to my child- i need to be guided not to fall back to bf!

Offline Martini~

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Re: Too much breastfeeding, too little solids; night weakening
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2014, 07:42:26 am »
There are many options and you have to find your own way.
But assuming your LO was never a IS but she is used to sleep in her cot, general rules would be:
- create consitent rutine before naps/BT which would suit your LO; it may be short or long, it may consist of reading, singing, cuddling - whatever suits you and your LO; for example for naps I have a short rutine: blinds down, into a sleeping bag, short cuddling and me singing a lullaby to DS and into the crib with some white noise on; for BT for us it's bottle (many people do bottle just before bed after the whole rutine but my DS was usually so tired and ready to sleep that wasn't taking a full feed), bath, massage, PJ's, short cuddling and story (no books at DS is too OS with it), into a sleeping bag, short cuddling and me singing a lullaby to DS and into the crib, no white noise
- make sure every carer of your child is in the same boat with you, so that DH/DP will support you in the idea; it's so difficult when your closest peers are not into the idea of sleep training
- do not rush with starting ST, do it when YOU are ready as it will not be easy, maybe choose a weekend when DH/DP is close to you to help or ask you mother/friend/sister to help
- prepare yourself for a lot of crying but remember: it's not wrong UNTIL you are there to comfort your LO; never let her cry alone - that's one of the most important thing with a proper ST, you want her to learn how to self settle, not to lose her trust; if needed, buy yourself ear plugs
- decide on the way of comforting your LO when you put her into the crib probably firstly it will have to be pupd as she will be crying/standing in the crib; then she should calm down and finally stop fighting you and lie down in her crib – here you may help her to self sooth (your hand on her, some shhh or patting, rubbing etc) or just sit in her room or near to her cot so she knows you are there, you may even leave the room before she finally settles as long as she is not crying but calmly trying to self sooth herself; it’s your choice based on your judgement what’s the best for you and your DD.

HTH:)! Good luck!
~Marta