30 minute naps - getting worse now down to 20!

[bluebell568]

Please can someone remind me what 30 minute naps usually signal and how best to try and lengthen them.

Today's routine

6:45am wake up
7:00     breastfeed
8:00     baby porridge and fruit
9:15     nap
9:45     awake
11:00   breastfeed
12:05   nap
12:45   awake
1:30     veg puree
2:30     breastfeed
3:35     nap
4:05     awake
4:30     breastfeed
5:30     pear puree
6:50     bedtime breastfeed
7:30     asleep in cot

He has reflux, food allergies and has had a tongue tie revised twice so the last 6 months have been tricky and lots of non-accidental parenting has been used to help him sleep. Everything is now pretty much under control so we need to get the sleep sorted.
At night he sometimes wakes 7 times a night, on a good night he goes back to sleep between wakings. On a bad night, when the reflux is bad he ends up sleeping upright on my shoulder for hours.

Any tips would be very gratefully received.

[*Ali*]

Typically 30 min naps are OT but looking at your routine I wonder if it is UT because his first A time is short. I'd try pushing that first nap later by 15 mins or so and see if you get a longer nap.

It could also be that he is OT from the broken nights sleep though as it sounds like he never gets a restorative sleep. What is he like when awake? Is he happy or grizzly during that first A time?

Or it could just be discomfort from the reflux and so he isn't able to transition to the next sleep cycle. Is he on meds for the reflux? It sounds quite bad and not under control and that will always make sleep difficult.

Do you have any method of helping him get a longer nap such as wearing him in a wrap/sling/carrier or taking him out for a walk in the pushchair?

[bluebell568]

Hi Ali, thanks for your ideas. I've put him down a little later this morning so we'll see how he goes. He is generally happy when he's awake, particularly first thing in the morning. He is on omeprazole for the reflux and we are dairy, soya, gluten and egg free. I also give him probiotics. He used to sleep a little longer if I put him in the sling but I had to keep walking/moving for the entire nap as if I stood still or sat down he would wake up. He sometimes sleeps longer in the pushchair if we keep walking but usually will wake after half an hour.

If he sleeps for half an hour, how long A time would you suggest before the next nap. I find it really hard to follow his sleep cues as he doesn't tend to show any obvious signs of being tired until I take him up to his room and start the nap routine and then he starts rubbing his eyes and looking tired.

Thanks for your help

[weaver]

What age is he hun?

[bluebell568]

Ah yes, sorry I forgot to say he is 6 months old.

He slept for 1 hr 1/2 this morning which I was not expecting! So then I put him down for his second nap after the same length A time and he slept for 30 mins. But he's already had far more day time sleep than normal so I'm happy!

We'll fit in one more short nap today to get him through to bedtime. How much A time should I give him after this 30 min nap?

[bluebell568]

Could you glance at today's Easy please

6:45 awake
7:00 breastfeed
8:00 solids
9:25  - 10:55 nap
11:15 breastfeed
12:00 solids
1:45 - 2:15 nap
2:30 breastfeed
4:50 - 5:20 nap (took ages to get him down for this one as 3 yr old kept being noisy!)
5:30 solids
6:45 bedtime breastfeed
7:50 asleep (took much longer to get him to sleep tonight. Usually asleep between 7 and 7:30 but very playful tonight!)

How's it looking? Any suggestions welcome.

[weaver]

30 min naps often mean overtired.  It depends on the baby tho, for the occasional one it's undertired!

At this age, babies are generally dropping that last nap in the afternoon, the catnap, and moving over to two big naps.  That being the case, I stopped killing myself to get a CN and just put LO in a sling, or buggy, and let them sleep if they wanted to (just in case that helps with your 3 yo! often had a pleasant stroll with LO1 while LO2 was deciding whether or not to nap!). 

What I would suggest is starting to push that AM nap a shade later, and bring the PM nap a little bit earlier, just to start with, until you start getting a good nap in the PM.  Just try 15 mins earlier and see what happens.  It isn't necessarily the case that all A times are the same length throughout the day - some LOs like a long first A, short middle A, long A to bed, and the variations are endless, and entirely individual.   Average A at this age is anywhere between 2.5 hrs and 3 hrs so you probably have some time to play with.

This might help:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

This chat thread on 3-2 is a bit quiet right now but I bet if you post you'll get some responses.
Anyone want to talk about the 3-2 Nap transition? Part 2

HTH!

[bluebell568]

Thank you so much. I wish these babies came with a manual. I'll hop over to the 3-2 thread in our next wake up!

 

[*Ali*]

I'm glad you got a longer nap by pushing the morning A time.

As a rule, after a 30 min nap, I would generally reduce A time by 20-30 mins at 6mo.

It could be that increasing both A times today was too much for him and he needs a bit longer to get used to that longer morning A time before he is ready for a longer second A time as well. I'd maybe try 2hr45 for the first A time and stick with 2hr30 for the second for a few days and them maybe try increasing the second A time again.

[bluebell568]

So the hour and a half nap we had a couple of weeks ago was a one off. His 30 minute naps are now down to 20 or 25 minutes and it is getting harder to get him to settle to sleep. He is still waking up to 7 times a night.

I think he is chronically over tired. I can't even get him to take a longer nap by holding him on me, wearing him in the sling or driving him in the car.

I really want to help him settle to sleep in his bed rather than rocking or feeding him to sleep but each time I try he just gets upset and fights sleep. I'm still confused about what time to put him down. I'd be grateful for any help please.

[weaver]

Can you tell us where you are now with A times? I know, I know they are probably all over the shop, but just tell us how today went.  He's 7 mos now?  Average A at that age is about 2hr 45- 3 hr 15, and most babies will be doing just two naps, the cat nap is gone!

[bluebell568]

OK, the A times are affected quite a bit by how long it takes me to get him to fall asleep. He still needs 3 naps because they are so short.
So today we had

6:35 awake
9:40 - 10:00 nap
1:40 - 2:10 nap  I know this was too long A time but I had to collect my daughter from nursery at 1 so couldn't put him down in his bed. I assumed he'd have a nap in the car but didn't
4:40 - 5:00 nap
7:20 asleep

[bluebell568]

Now he won't nap at all. What am I doing wrong? Why can't I do this? All the other posts I read the babies might have bad naps but sleep well at night, or they won't sleep on their own but in the car they will do 2 hours +. My little boy just won't sleep - at night, in the day, in the car, in the pram, on me, anywhere.

Today he woke at 7.20am. I purposefully didn't plan to do anything today so that I could concentrate on getting him down for his naps. At 10 o'clock I took him up and spent 30 minutes trying to get him to sleep. No joy at all. Brought him downstairs again but he immediately seems tired. Now he's getting near to a feed time so I decided I'd better feed him or he would wake with hunger. So I fed him and despite me trying to keep him awake while he fed, he drifted off for all of 5 minutes. So I tried to put him down for nap again and he won't go to sleep. He thinks he's had a nap because he shut his eyes for 5 minutes. It's now midday and he's not had a nap. And my 3 year old has had to manage on her own all this time while I'm upstairs trying to get the baby to sleep. He was up 4 times in the night including a long wake up from 3:15 until 4:50. I'm beyond exhausted.

[*Ali*]

That to me sounds like discomfort.  Do you think it is time to get a review of the reflux meds? Any chance something hidden is sneaking into his diet?

[bluebell568]

I took him to the doctor last Monday to ask about the meds etc. As soon as I mentioned sleep, the doctor immediately said that it wasn't anything to do with his reflux but it was because he hadn't been sleep trained. He started talking about controlled crying. I asked if omeprazole could cause sleep problems and again he dismissed it. I kept saying that I felt he was uncomfortable, squirming, coughing, arching but he'd made up his mind. This morning he managed a 10 minute nap. This afternoon, in desperation to get him sleep, I fed him to sleep then left him on my chest with my nipple right by his mouth so if he woke he could suckle back to sleep. He STILL only slept for half an hour! Total daytime naps today 40minutes! With regard to diet, I'm pretty sure nothing has slipped in. He has been a bit constipated for the last few days but I'm not sure if that's just adjusting to solids. I've cut solids right back today and yesterday. He keeps scratching his ears, he's made them bleed, but I managed to get the doctor to look on them and he said they were fine. His two front teeth are through now and he's not showing signs of teething any more.
At night he sleeps on his side in a Sleepyhead. But when he wakes he has usually turned onto his back. I don't know if he wakes because he's turned onto his back or whether he wakes and then turns as he looks around. Tonight I have used a rolled blanket to wedge him onto his side more so he can't turn onto his back. It might help I don't know.
Thank you for any ideas you might have.