8 month old early WU

[NinNic]

Hi there,

Usually I receive replies from Katie but she has not been online for a while now. Wondering if someone else could help?!

Below is what I have posted:

I have tried am nap at 10:30. For last 2 days she has woken at 5:30. Do you think I need to increase A time more? I added 10 mins today so first nap was at 10:40. Has been bit easier to get her to sleep around 4 hr A time in pm.

EASY for last 5 days:

Sat 21 Feb:
WU 6:30 picked up 6:39
S 10:30-12:02
S 16:05-16:30
BT 19:00
DF 22:25

Sun 22/2:
Woke her 6:32
S 10:27-11:58
S 16:05-16:30
BT 18:48
DF 22:16

Mon 23 Feb:
WU 6:30
Vaken 6:30 gått in 6:37-10:33 nattat 10:30
S 10:33-12:03
S 16:12-16:44
BT 19:00
DF 22:25

Tues 24:
WU 5:30 tried to get her to sleep didn't work picked up 6:23
S 10:29-12:01
S 16:05-16:37
BT 18:57
DF 22:24

Wed 25 Feb:
WU 5:30 picked up 6:06
S 10:39-11:55 (had to wake her as had appointment)
S 15:59-16:44 (let her sleep bit longer as didn't sleep full nap earlier)
BT 19:13

Was just thinking that it is probably worth mentioning that she woke at 6:30 out of the days I just posted yesterday when we had visitors at home so she probably got more tired and slept longer. The days when we didn't she started waking early again.

This morning she woke at around 5:30 again. I def feel it is time to increase A time more than first nap at 10:40. Today I put her to bed at 10:52. What do you think and how would EASY look like with naps and BF and solids? Also what time do I put pm nap and for how long?

Thanks in advance! 

For past few days she is still waking around 5. Ive put her down at 10:50 for first nap.

Just don't know why she is waking so early??

[newkidontheblock]

Hi there. Seeing as she is doing such good naps & going to sleep without a problem, I'm inclined to think that it might be a case of too much day sleep. Is she High or Low sleep needs? - how much sleep on an average does she seem to need in 24 hours? Because it just might be that she has had enough by 5.30 & is ready to start her day.

I think your A for the am nap is good since you are getting a 2 hour nap most days. You could of course try pushing it a bit later but I think you might also have to start capping it instead. Of course if you stick to the same A before pm, it might be a bit too early for you? Would you consider pushing the second A a bit instead?

[NinNic]

Hi, thanks for your quick reply!

She is having total of 2 hr day sleep. I think she is towards less sleep needs if comparing to other babies in same age and average sleep and A needs posted here on forum. At least this is the case since she was about 5 months. I know she can sleep 11-12 hr nights just doesn't seem to happen lately. She def does not want to go back to sleep when she wakes around 5-6 am, I have tried and she refuses.

She is on 1 1/2 hrss nap for am nap not 2 hrs, she has almost never slept 2 hrs for a nap. Should I really cap that nap? I was advised not to cap that nap but to keep it to a full nap of 1 1/2 hrs. I'm unsure of when to put her to sleep for both naps now. Yesterday, she slept at 11:12 after being awake from around 5-5:20 am and she was very tired and hard to get her to sleep, still she woke around 5 am this morning. Her A time for pm is around 4 hrs now as I was advised to cap A time to 4 hrs to be able to squeeze in CN of 25-30 mins. This advice I was given about 3-4 weeks back, maybe things are changing again?Her A time was longer before (about 4hrs 10 mins-4 hrs 30 mins). It was getting harder and harder to get her to sleep in her cot so was advised to use stroller, which I have done for a while. Should I increase that A time?

Does her A time in pm also affect early waking? Should I not keep CN in pm as she can't manage to go without a small nap in pm? If I have it later when can I have it to be able to put her to bed for 7 pm? Shall I cap it even more? She needs about 2 1/2 hr A time after 30 mins nap.

[newkidontheblock]

Should I really cap that nap?

I have no idea why I consistently saw it as 2 hours am nap:p No, completely agree that it is not necessary to cap it then. But you might have to push your first A out a bit. I'm following a similar routine with my DD for the past 2 months - long am, short pm. And I think one phase of the 2-1 transition is that you end up having a longer day in order to fit in two naps. I think that is the phase you are in now, which means a push in A times is what is in order. But this means that you would have to push BT back for a while.

Yesterday, she slept at 11:12 after being awake from around 5-5:20 am and she was very tired and hard to get her to sleep, still she woke around 5 am this morning.

This morning when she woke at 5 were you able to get her back to sleep? If she wakes at 5 and you are unable to put her back to sleep, start your day and put her down after the normal A time. You simply will need another proper nap in order to make it to bed. Otherwise she will be very over tired as the day progresses, and this OT buildup also can lead to early wakings. 10 - 10.5 hour nights are generally OT.

It was getting harder and harder to get her to sleep in her cot so was advised to use stroller, which I have done for a while. Should I increase that A time?

Push your first A out to begin with. The CN is getting harder, I agree. I've been APOPing it in the sling. But that's because it is on its way out.

Does her A time in pm also affect early waking?

The overall A of the day affects the night. If she is not tired enough/ has slept too much, then you can have EWs.

Should I not keep CN in pm as she can't manage to go without a small nap in pm?

No, of course keep pm nap. They can't go so long till bed yet. But if she starts waking at a normal time and your first nap can be pushed to 4.5 somewhat A, then maybe you would be able to drop to one nap, as from what you are saying she does remarkably long A times well.  I know of some people who instead shorten the pm nap to 15-20 minutes. It doesn't work with my baby though.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your quick reply!:)

Would you be able to post an example of EASY with push in A times?

I didn't try to get her back to sleep this morning, when I turn on the light she is all happy and smiling. If she would have been OT would she have been grumpy? I will try tomorrow morning to get her back to sleep.

If she wakes at 5 and I can't get her back to sleep should I keep her awake until 10:30 or push A time even more?

Can you also post example of EASY with first A time of 4.5 hrs with 1 nap only?

What does your EASY look like with your baby if she can't have the CN of 15-20 mins?

Usually DD has dinner around 16:50 so there is enough time for her to BF at 18:30, but I don't know how to do it if the CN ends up around dinner time, any advice?

[newkidontheblock]

Would you be able to post an example of EASY with push in A times?

Hun, its the same as what you are doing now, just everything pushed back a bit and ending later.

I didn't try to get her back to sleep this morning, when I turn on the light she is all happy and smiling. If she would have been OT would she have been grumpy? I will try tomorrow morning to get her back to sleep

You should definitely try to get her back down. Don't turn on the light at all. That would signal that it's time to wake up. After she has got most of her sleep done, she doesn't have that great a need to go back to sleep yk?

If she wakes at 5 and I can't get her back to sleep should I keep her awake until 10:30 or push A time even more?

You then put her down after your normal A of 4 hours. Actually, looking at the routines you posted, I see that you have been putting her down at 10.30 after 5.30 WU and she is doing a 1.5 hr nap anyway. Do you have a problem getting her down or keeping her asleep?

Can you also post example of EASY with first A time of 4.5 hrs with 1 nap only?

I don't think you're here just yet and no Btdt experience with me but I would think
Wu-7
Nap 1 - 11.30/12 for however long
BT 5.30/6

What does your EASY look like with your baby if she can't have the CN of 15-20 mins?

My baby cannot do BT without a 30 min CN. Anything less does not do. She can do long A times through the day but needs a short one before bed. Right now we are doing
WU-7
Nap 1- 11am -12.30/1
CN - 4 hrs 10 mins later
BT- 1.30hrs after CN

Usually DD has dinner around 16:50 so there is enough time for her to BF at 18:30, but I don't know how to do it if the CN ends up around dinner time, any advice?

Again, no btdt experience but couldn't you give her a snack when she woke from the CN and then there is a 2 hour gap before bed and nursing right?

[NinNic]

Thanks for info!

No, no problem getting her down or keeping her asleep, only one day when I put her down at 10:50 (been awake from around 5:20 am picked up 5:55) which was too late. She slept through nap but was hard to get her to sleep she was crying a lot, OT I think.

So today I had to wake her!! I woke her at 6:39. EASY of yesterday and today so far:

Sun 1 March:
WU around 5
S 10:23-11:56 decided to put her to bed a bit earlier as she seemed very tired
S 16:21-16:43 took 21 mins for her to fall asleep in pram
BT 19:05

Mon 2 March:

Woke her 6:39
S 11:03-will wake her 12:33

Do you think 4 hrs 20 mins is too long A time in morning? She seemed to be ok. Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

Do you think I should keep CN 15-20 mins still even if we can start day at 7 am with A of around 4 hrs 20 mins in am and around 4 hrs in pm? Or push A time in pm also to around 4 hrs 30 mins and put to bed a bit earlier? Will this be too much A time increase in one go?

[newkidontheblock]

So today I had to wake her!! I woke her at 6:39.

Awesome:) And amazing about her settling for naps even when OT. *sigh* No such luck here

Do you think 4 hrs 20 mins is too long A time in morning? She seemed to be ok. Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

It doesn't matter what I think. You need to listen to your baby and follow her cues. Ultimately, you know best. If you feel that you need to shorten the CN, try it out. You won't know until you do it. Regarding your A, it is great that she can do long A times & sleeps even when OT but it is very very possible that however well she handles it during the day, it is leading to these EWs at night.

Do you think I should keep CN 15-20 mins still even if we can start day at 7 am with A of around 4 hrs 20 mins in am and around 4 hrs in pm? Or push A time in pm also to around 4 hrs 30 mins and put to bed a bit earlier? Will this be too much A time increase in one go?

Again, you need to decide this based on your baby. I can only tell you that with mine, a 20 minute nap is useless. It does not relax her at all and she inevitably doesn't nurse well & has a tough time going to sleep.

Also, how much A can she do before bed? I don't think you should push to 1 nap cold turkey as she obviously is having trouble handling the A, hence the wakings. It could go horribly wrong and your baby might get too too too tired.

You can read up about the 2-1 transition here
10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

This paragraph I felt was relevant to your situation. Just copy/pasting it
If your lo is a habitual early waker, then as well as shortening the am nap, you need to move it slightly later, perhaps by 20- 30 minutes. This will encourage your lo to start sleeping longer at night so they can’t “catch up” that lost night sleep so quickly. Bear in mind that when you start to change lo’s sleep patterns it will take at least a few days if not over a week for their body clock to readjust. Don’t expect to see results immediately, especially if you are dealing with an early waker!

[NinNic]

Thanks for all info. I'm just really confused at mo, maybe you are right she is OT and waking early in morning. She def needs CN in pm so I won't be changing that. Its A time in morning I'm confused about?! Am I pushing her too far?

If 10 hrs-10.5 hrs sleep is most likely due to OT, how do I differentiate OT with UT?

I can say that she has always been sensitive when OT or UT by being difficult to get to sleep or waking from it. At mo seems to be better, what can that indicate? That she is OT but shows it by EW instead of at nap time? This wasn't the case before, nap time was also problem.

I don't want her to be OT! Confused 

[newkidontheblock]

It's easy to tell if she is OT. Is she having trouble going to sleep, does she need to be resettled at 20 or 30 minutes. These are all tell tale signs

[katie80]

Also I think she def should not have more than 20 mins max CN as when she sleeps 25 mins or more it seems to affect her EW, but I´m not sure?

This is kind of what I was thinking as I read through.

I know we've talked about being unsure of OT/UT before.  A couple things to think about... I think you always wake her after 1.5hr in the morning, is that right? You could try letting her sleep for 2hr for a few days, keeping the CN the same and see what happens.  If she starts to consistently sleep longer at night, then that might be an answer.  How does she wake when she wakes in the early morning?  Is she quiet, chatty, rolling around or is she mad?  Have you ever tried just leaving her til your desired wake-up time of 6:30am? I definitely would try to not turn on the lights and get her up until that time. 

[NinNic]

It is not often she sleeps longer than 1.5 hrs.

I only go in to her when she is crying. She will chat a bit and cry and chat and cry a bit. I think she doesnt like to stay awake in dark for long as she is happy when I turn on the light.


This morning she woke around 6:20 which was better.

Katie, here is my last post:

Hope you had a nice trip. 

She is still waking early. I have increased A time to around 4 hrs 20 mins as around 4 hrs doesn't seem to work in morning, I mean she is still waking early. The day she was awake around 4 hrs 40 mins in morning she slept longer next morning and I had to wake her! Do you think I need to increase A time more than 4 hrs 20 mins?? She simply refuses to go back to sleep in the morning. As soon as I turn on the light she is smiling.

How do I continue with her early wakings with A time in morning because naturally she will be more tired when waking up early and sleeping around 10 hrs-10.5 hrs. I mean can I still push A time in morning from when I turn on lights?

Do I keep same A time in pm?

EASY for past 4 days:

Sun 1 March:
WU around 5-5:20 turned on lights 5:40
S 10:23-11:56
S 16:21-16:43
BT 19:05
DF 22:20

Mon 2 March:
Woke her 6:39
S 11:03-12:33
S 16:34-16:55
BT 18:52
DF 22:23

Tues 3 March:
WU 5:40 tried to get her back to sleep 5:45 did not work turned on light 6:10
S 10:25-11:36 (might have woken because of noise from refurbishment of elevator)
S 16:03-16:32
BT 18:56
DF 22:25

Wed 4 March:
WU 5:20 tried to get her back to sleep 5:40 didn't work turned on light 6:00
S 10:20-11:47
S 16:05-16:33
BT 18:53

[Lycheewaves]

Just jumping in to ask if you've considered dropping the dreamfeed, we did this at 8 months too and it helped a bit (we think, though we like you are grappling with awake times and early wakings) just as Tracy says to do it at this age as it can effect their sleep.

[katie80]

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say... A couple weeks ago, she seemed to be on that pattern of a long night then a short night and it seemed easier to predict... after doing three days of what we wanted, now she seems to be doing mostly short nights with a long one every now and then.

Do you feel like she's OT? What do you think would be the earliest she would go down? I'm wondering if it might be worth trying a 4hr A for a few days and letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning and then doing your normal CN and seeing if it makes a difference. What do you think? I'm sorry I'm not more helpful.

[newkidontheblock]

I have increased A time to around 4 hrs 20 mins as around 4 hrs doesn't seem to work in morning, I mean she is still waking early. The day she was awake around 4 hrs 40 mins in morning she slept longer next morning and I had to wake her! Do you think I need to increase A time more than 4 hrs 20 mins?? She simply refuses to go back to sleep in the morning. As soon as I turn on the light she is smiling.

I'm pretty confused too. Just to clarify --- You said that 4 hours doesn't work and you had to push. Is this because she was having difficulty going to sleep or doing short naps?
And when you say that she is smiling after turning on the lights -- this is after trying to resettle her and it not working? Just wanted to share that we have had a few days of EWs, especially at this golden hour of 5.30/6, and it is always OT and we simply cannot resettle, which is odd since I hear that OT EWs should be easy to settle.

Im just going to go in the opposite direction and say -- do you think that her A times are just too much for her to handle and so even after good naps, she is ultimately OT, leading to these EWs? Just thinking out loud really. What do you ladies think?