Anyone want to talk about 3:2 nap transition? Part 3

[Martini~]

Please continue from here!

Anyone want to talk about the 3-2 Nap transition? Part 2


If you ever wonder if you should post here or start your own thread:
This thread is a kind of a chat, sharing experience and moaning together. If you need a specific advice, it's always better to start your own thread so nobody misses your shout for help. However you can still stay here and talk with other mammas who are going through the same problem right now. With nap transitions the case is that sometimes nothing helps and you just have to ride it out. And that's when threads like this are so helpful.

[Kfro]

Please can someone help me 

My ds is coming up to six months. He currently has two naps (1 of 1.5 hours and 1 of 2 hours) and a 30 minute cat nap. He currently does about 2 hours 25 minutes before each of the full naps, 2 hours 15 before the cat nap and then I put him down after about an hour and 15 for bed ( as otherwise the day seems too long). His nights are all over the place. Tonight it has taken 45 minutes of screaming to get him to sleep. He has never fought bedtime like this before. He has also been waking within the first three hours of the night plus early in the morning on some days. I thought that both of these indicated overtired but he is napping better than he has ever done before so I am now wondering if maybe he is getting too much day sleep or we are approaching the 3-2 transition and it is causing everything to go a bit wonky. I have been scared to push his a times up as I don't want to make him more overtired if that is the problem but I know that that is the only way I will be able to get through this if it is the 3-2.  Can anyone shed any light? Do I need to push and just deal with the ot until we are through it? He has never been very good at tacking on missed sleep to his night so I am unsure that ebt will help us get through. I am considering capping his naps but am worried if I do this at the same time as increasing his a we are going to get into an ot hole that is difficult to get out of. It all just feels like such a mess.

[jessmum46]

How long is your catnap Kfro?  Could you post your whole day here in EAS format and I'll take a peek to see if there's anything to change routine-wise?

[Kfro]

Wake up time varies between 6 and 7. If he wakes up earlier than six I don't get him up and either leave him talking to himself if he is happy or try to resettle him if he is crying. For a day starting at 6 the eas would be as follows:
Get up 6
E 630
A 7-825
S 825-1025
E 1030
A 11-1250
S 1250-220
E 230
A 3-435
S 435-505
A 505-550
E 6
S 620 (put down in cot awake)

Sometimes the first nap is less than two hours and sometimes the second nap is longer than 1.5 hours but I cap the second one so that in total he has had 3.5 hours from the two.

Thank you for taking a look....I'm so confused 

[jessmum46]

I think probably UT from your routine....nothing there to suggest OT really . I would start working on increasing those first and second A times, just 5-10 mins extra low-key activity every few days.  That may mean BT becomes later for a bit until you are in a position that around 3h A time after your second nap would get you to a 'reasonable' BT, at which point you can drop the CN and see how it goes. 

Do feel free to post over on the naps board too if you need any more specific advice x

[Kfro]

Would you advise trying a shorter catnap (20 mins) or just keep it as it is until we are at 3 hours a time?

[jessmum46]

I think it depends on what your LO prefers really.  Some do best keeping a 30/40 min catnap and accepting a later BT/shorter night, but if you'd prefer to limit how late BT gets then yes shorten the catnap.  Bear in mind you may have to shorten the A time after the CN too if you choose that option as LO may not be able to handle as long awake after a 20 min power nap as they can after 30 or 40 mins x

[Kfro]

Thank you so much for your help 

[Mom2012]

I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place, but I think I need some help with the 3-2 nap transition.  If it needs to be moved back to the Naps board, then that is fine.  I posted on the Naps board already and someone suggested to post on the 3-2 transition board to see if I can get some more help.

Here is a little overview: My LO is a little over 5.5mo, exclusively BF, doesn't take a pacifier, and uses a swaddle.  I started using shh/pat a little before 4m to teach him to sleep independently.  I would say we have made a lot of progress because for most naps, I now just lay him down and keep one hand on his chest until he starts to drift off and then I take it off and leave the room.  For the most part, he is asleep within 5 minutes for naps (he has started to refuse and/or take a long time to settle for CN for about 3 weeks now, so I'm having to do some PUPD and holding him longer than I would like in order to calm him).  He has pretty much always taken a good morning nap (about 1.20 - 2hr but most days its closer to 2hr.  I always wake him at 2hr if he is still asleep).  The second nap was usually short (30-45min).  With the help from some ladies on another board, I pushed his A time some after the good morning nap and I'm finally started seeing longer naps (closer to 1.30hr).  However, once he started taking 2 pretty good naps, the CN is now really nearly impossible.  It's hard for me to APOP the CN because I also have a 2.5yo so it makes it hard for him to fall asleep with his loud brother around

He has always been harder to get to sleep for BT.  Right now it is a real battle!  It usually takes at least 30 min and sometimes longer than an hour to go to sleep.  I have never let him fall asleep nursing for BT but I'm starting to nurse him more just so he will go to sleep because I know at that point he is very OT.  It drives me crazy because he can fall asleep for naps easily and without BF, so I wasn't sure why it was so hard for BT.  About 2 weeks ago, he just all of a sudden started falling asleep at BT like he would for naps.  He also started having less NWs, and he even STTN once and had a couple of nights with an 8hr stretch.  Well that didn't last, and I'm trying to figure out what went wrong.  It seemed like when he was doing one good nap and two short naps, he would fall asleep easily at BT and only wake once at night to BF.  Now that I am getting two pretty good naps, I can't really get him to take a CN so I try for EBT but it's hard because DH isn't home from work yet and I need help keeping DS1 occupied while trying to get DS2 to bed.  Therefore he usually ends up OT by the time I can get him to bed.  And if I do get him to take a CN, it is after at least 20min of trying and then it really pushes our day back. I'm then not sure how long to keep him awake before trying for BT.  It seems like there is not enough hours in the day to fit it in.  It seems like he is getting close to the 3-2 transition, but he cannot stay awake long enough to only have 2 naps.  His first A time is still at 2.10hr.  His second A time is at 2.30hr.  Then if he takes a good nap the second time I can't seem to get him to take a CN any earlier than the 2.30hr A time.  Therefore, the day gets really long.  I really haven't gotten him to take a CN if his two naps are both at least 1.30.

I need help straightening out these naps and times so that hopefully he can start settling easier at BT.  It sure was nice the other week when he STTN and had some long stretches of sleep, so I would love to figure out how to get him to do that again!! Before now, he had been eating only once in the middle of the night for the past month.  Now I feel like I'm having to nurse him more. It might just be me taking the easier way out because I'm so tired.  Can someone take a look at the last two days and see what you think?  Are we ready to try for 2 naps?  If so, how would I make it to a decent BT?  Adjust any A times or the length of his naps?

Wednesday:
WU-7:15
E: 7:20
A:
S: 9:22-10:46 (A time before this nap was 2hr 7min; Slept 1hr 24min)  This was shorter than normal for some reason.
E: 10:50
A:
S: 1:13-2:40 (A time before this nap was 2hr 27min; Slept 1hr 27min)
E: 2:45
A:
S: I tried at 5:05 (A time was 2hr 25min) but he would not go to sleep.  I gave up at 5:20 since he showed no signs of going to sleep.
A: Low key activity until DH got home from work so I could get him to bed
E: 6:20-6:50; He wouldn't settle so I BF again around 7:30
S: 7:40
*He only woke at 10:40 so I went ahead and BF again and he slept until 6:45

Thursday:
WU-6:45
E: 6:50
A:
S: 8:53-10:53 (A time before this nap was 2hr 8min; I woke him at 2hr)
E: 10:55
A:
S: 1:20-2:20 (A time before this nap was 2hr 27min; I actually woke him at 1hr thinking he would be able to take the CN but I was wrong)
E: 2:30
A:
S: Tried for CN at 4:55 (pushed A time to 2hr 35min) but he wouldn't settle.  I gave up at 5:15
A: Low key activity
E: 5:50-6:25
S: Went right to sleep at 6:30
*He woke right back up at 7 and cried for well over an hour.  DH tried settling him but didn't work, so I fed again at 8:15 and he went to sleep around 8:40.  Got up again at 10:30 so I fed again and then he slept until 6:30.

Thank you so much for any help you can give me!  It's getting pretty hard around our house at BT with the 2.5yo and the baby crying! I appreciate your help and support 

[jessmum46]

If you are getting CN refusal then yes you need to start transitioning, unless you can APOP the CN in the car/sling/stroller?  To be able to handle 2 naps your LO does need to be able to manage around 3h A time though so despite getting good naps you will need to work on actively stretching his A times around 10 mins every 3-4 days.  Keep the extra A time low-key and maybe work on one A at a time if you think he is touchy or struggles with OT.  I had a rule that if second nap ended at or after 3pm I skipped CN and went for bed 3h after waking from nap.  If it ended earlier then I would try my hardest for a CN.  Since you are getting refusal around the 2h30 mark for a CN I would try putting down at 2h45 and see if that makes a difference.  If you can't get the CN it will be messy for a time but just do the earliest BT you can manage.

Your day with 2h30ish A could be something like:

WU 7
Nap 9.30-11.30
Nap 2-3.30
Skip CN and BT 6/6.30pm

Or if naps shorter

WU 7
Nap 9.30-11
Nap 1.30-3
Either skip CN and BT 6pm, or CN 5.45-6.15 and BT 7.15/30

Does that help?

[Mom2012]

Thanks for your response!  Like I mentioned, it's hard to APOP the CN because big brother is distracting. We do APOP the CN in the car when I take DS1 to music class one afternoon a week, but the last two weeks he hasn't been falling asleep anymore in the car.  So, I'm thinking I'm going to have to try to start transitioning.  I have two questions:

1. I am nervous to push the first A time since he falls asleep right when I put him down and sleeps so good, but if that's what I need to do then I'll give it a try.  I did notice on the average A times bookmark that at late 5mo-6mo they are moving towards 3h and that A time for him is still right under 2.10.  Do you think this is where I need to start?  Maybe just push it by 10 min?

2. Another concern I have is getting him to bed after a CN.  I have noticed in the last 3 weeks since he started resisting/refusing CN that he doesn't seem tired at BT if he takes a CN.  So if I do 2 naps and a CN then I feel like he needs more A time before BT but there's just not enough time without making the day extremely long. I noticed you suggested BT about 1hr after CN, but I'm not sure he will do that. Any suggestions? 

Take a look at yesterday.  Well, last night was amazing!!  He took a 2hr nap in the morning, but then woke at 30min for his second nap (he also took 20min to go to sleep - This was all strange for him).  Since he took a 30 min nap I was able to get him to take the CN (also took 20min to fall asleep).  Then I gave him A time of 1.40 before BF aiming for BT to be about 2.15 after he woke from CN.  I used to aim for 2hr after CN but he just didn't seem tired.  This actually worked!  He was more awake BF which I think is part of our problem.  When he doesn't CN and is up for a long time, he dozes off BF and I think gets mad when I wake him to get in bed.  So last night he ate well, let me sing to him, and put in bed.  He fell asleep in about 15min, which is great for what he's been doing!!  He woke an hour later but DH settled him pretty quickly, and then he didn't wake to eat until 4:40am!  I know taking two 30min naps probably isn't good, but we were able to fit in the CN and extra time before BT.  He did have almost a 13hr day though.  I don't know what to make of this!  It could just be a coincidence that 1 good nap and 2 short naps = no BT battle and good nights sleep.  Maybe it was the fact that he wasn't too tired for BF and actually fell asleep in bed an not on me.  But I don't know how to do that every night if I can't get him to CN!

[Mom2012]

Well I thought him taking 20min to fall asleep for the second nap and napping 30min was just an off day, but he did it again today. It took him 10min to go to sleep but it was all crying and fussing. Is that a sign he's ready for a push in A time?

I originally thought I would start with the morning A time since it's shorter but he's doing good with that nap. What do you think?

[Kfro]

 

It feels so messy.

We are in the storm of wonder week leap five but I still feel like there is more to this. We were doing really well at 230 a time but increasing it to 240 seems to have turned everything upside down. I increased the a time in order to be able to get rid of the catnap soon as it is getting really hard to fit the catnap in but maybe I need to just deal with that for a little bit longer? Today he was difficult to settle for all naps and bt has been horrendous.... Full on screaming. Is this ww behaviour? Or typical of the 3-2?

Was thinking of reducing a time to 230 again as he has seemed so tired all day today but if this is 3-2 shenanigans then I don't want to prolong it and make him even more tired iykwim?

[jessmum46]

Mom2012 - yes you will need to push that first A despite a good nap.  I suspect he's tacking on night sleep at the moment because of the long A before bed and NWs.  Just push 10 mins, keep it low key and hold for 3-4 days before increasing again.  And push the second A too if he is resisting his nap. If he's not tired at BT after a CN, do BT slightly later . It's normal to have a long day leading up to nap transitions.  Sorry I realise I may have suggested BT 1h after a CN, I agree that may be too soon but 1.5-2h should be fine so with my second suggestion a 7.45/8pm BT after a 30 min CN, or closer to 7.30 after a 20 min CN.  If that's too early again, cut the CN shorter or push BT later.  I think the day with two 30 min naps he probably crashed at BT  . It works for a day or so but then OT gets set in very quickly, so pushing your As to get two decent naps well-distributed in the day will help.

Kfro have you got a post going somewhere on naps?  If LO is OT you may need to pull back As for a day to allow catch-up, but usually then need to push on or you get stuck in UT/OT loops.

[Mom2012]

Ok, he has done the longer morning nap and 2 short naps now for 3 days. He is going to bed easily at BT and only waking once or twice, but I agree he does need two good naps.

His morning nap the last two days has been shorter than normal (around 1hr 20min) so maybe he's ready for a push in A time. Do I just do 10min increase for the morning time or also increase for the second nap? The morning is 2hr 10 min right now and after that nap it's 2hr 30 min.