Author Topic: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine  (Read 4238 times)

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Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2015, 04:43:47 am »
I think with the short naps I would expect less settled night time sleep.  I'd see the two are related. Honestly, it's not that you're doing anything wrong.
This morning he woke up at 5-30 and no interest in BFing and sleep... :( but yesterday was very difficult in terms of naps: I only managed to extend his nap once to 1hr15min, other ones were all about 30 min, his total sleep was less than 3 hrs, so by BT he was severely OT and even though I tried putting him earlier but it took me 30 min to get him to fall asleep. So, 5-30 wake up today only confirms that good daytime sleep equals longer night sleep.

Oh emails like that drive me crazy. Who says they should all sleep like that by now?? Its silly blanket statements like that that lead to people doing silly things like putting cereal in bottles etc
Yeah, the emails... I think I am gonna take the time to unsubscribe and give the comment why, because like you mentioned it is easy to imagine some people doing crazy stuff like putting cereal in bottles or even CIO at this age!
Follow your instinct with the medical stuff - my baby has reflux as well but the last time I went and saw anyone was almost 2 months ago now. He's plodding along iyswim? Typical refluxer, but nothing a doctor can do much with for now.
With reflux it is now easier - he is on the maximum dose, it took longer than a week to start working but things have improved, and his next appointment is in about 1 month (at 6 months age) so I think we should last one month without needing another visit!
There is a huge developmental leap at this age - and the great 4 month sleep regression. A lot of it is likely related to that. I've had some hideous early wake-ups recently 4/5am    .

Have you found the birth clubs where we all chat about what little pests they all are?? It does help give a measure of what is normal.
How do you survive waking up at 4 am?  :o  I think every mother deseves a medal for the effort!
and thank you for the suggestion - I will check out the birth club, it does help to know I am not the only one having these kind of issues :)

oh and I almost forgot :) happy mother's day, ladies!  ;)
Lara

Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2015, 03:28:40 am »
Hello everyone! Our eating has improved a lot (due to meds I guess) but our sleeping has become hardly manageable... 
I really need some help because I am losing my mind with lack of sleep.
My LO started waking up earlier and earlier - this morning it was 4-40 and I cannot get him back to sleep. And during the day the only way he sleeps longer than 35-40 min is if I hold him, he used to sleep longer next to me in our bed (and I used to have a nap with him in the morning) but now it is not working either.
And putting him to sleep is a nightmare - he fights everything I do unless I am rocking - yesterday i tried just holding him and walking around and he starts falling asleep in my arms but the moment I try to put him down - he is wide awake. I tried letting him just be in his co-sleeper hoping he would fall asleep on his own, but only got a severely OT baby as he was not falling asleep by himself.
What I am doing wrong? What happened to my previously easy falling asleep baby? He used to fell asleep easily without needing to be held and without swaddle, he is 5 months tomorrow and I do not like where his sleep habits are headed...
Lara

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2015, 04:03:51 am »
It sounds like the holding and the rocking and the sleeping together are causing problems for him, unfortunately. Now he's got those habits firmly entrenched and you will need to go through the process of forming new habits of independent sleep. Hopefully if he used to sleep well on his own it won't be as hard as if he never did.

Take a look at these and think about what you might like to try, and whether you're willing to give up the cuddles for better sleep.

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!
Teaching Sleep- Tips from the boards

Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2015, 05:18:48 am »
It sounds like the holding and the rocking and the sleeping together are causing problems for him, unfortunately. Now he's got those habits firmly entrenched and you will need to go through the process of forming new habits of independent sleep. Hopefully if he used to sleep well on his own it won't be as hard as if he never did.

Take a look at these and think about what you might like to try, and whether you're willing to give up the cuddles for better sleep.

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!
Teaching Sleep- Tips from the boards

Hi! thank you for the answer! I was thinking and dreading the need for PU/PD... He is a short napper and I am afraid that not being able to have even those short naps will ruin both of us. Do you know of anybody who did pu-pd on a short napper?
And he also has reflux which is indicated as one of the reasons of not doing pupd.
I am really at a loss what to do.

And also, i don't know if it is relevant but I decided to post his last two days routines for you to see, maybe i am missing something.

14-05
WU 5-30 (he started fussing and kicking at around 3, so i took him in our bed)
E 6-00
S 7.40-8.10
E 9.50
S 10.00-10.40
S 11.50-13.15
E14.30
S 15.20-16.20
E 17.40
BT 18.40 (after 30 min of walking with him and trying to put him down and then picking him up)
DF 22.05
NF 01.15

15/05
WU 4.50
E 5.50
S 6.00-6.40
E 6.50
S 8.45-9.20
E 10.00
S 11.45-12.10
E 13.30
S 14.05-14.30
S 16.00-17.35
E 17.40
BT 19.45 (45 min of trying to put him to sleep)
DF 22.40
NF 01.40
this morning WU 4.40
E 4.50
S 5.50-6.30 and now we are both awake again waiting for next S
Lara

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 19:04:22 pm »
Yikes on the early wake ups! You poor, tired mama!

From what I can see, it looks like you're doing pretty well with his EASY - he's eating more or less on 4 hours and his A times are good when he goes down properly. So I would conclude that sleep habits are probably the problem.

I haven't been around this board that long, but I do think PUPD is frequently used for short nappers. Since you rarely miss a nap entirely doing it, it might actually be easier for him than a baby used to making for hours in a wrap or something who is suddenly taking short naps in a crib. And if you get totally desperate, it's always you prerogative to hold him or whatever is needed for a little nap to survive the day.

For the reflux, how problematic do you think it is for him right now? Do you think he can't sleep on his back without pain? If he can't, PUPD might be a bad choice. I would try to maximize the time after eating before lying down for now, even if it throws off the 4 hour routine. Do you feel like he gives clear enough cues that you could distinguish between pain and just not wanting to be in the crib?

Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2015, 07:28:52 am »
Hi domestic engineer! So, I have been thinking over the PUPD option and it does seem like the best next step for us, even though I have no idea how I will do it, but it is clear that something needs to be done. I would start right away but my DH is on business trip and our families are thousands km away, so I am not sure it is best to start now on my own (my DH comes back in two weeks), but I am considering it, since his reflux seems under control and my LO can sleep more or less ok on his back.
Thank you for your help and all the suggestions! I really appreciate it!!!
Now I am heading to the PUPD forum, to read and read and read, I need all the information I can get :)
Have a nice day and thanks again! :) hopefully soon I will be posting a success story in PUPD forum ;)
Lara

Offline weaver

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 09:29:41 am »
Hi hun,
he's on the young side for PU/PD and it might not be a good idea with a refluxer, as it might can aggravate the gut.  I'll have a look whenever you post on PU/PD but, personally, it would not be the route I would take. Remember, PU.PD is a method of *last resort*.
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2015, 11:00:33 am »
Hi Anne! I know PUPD is not the method of choice for babies with reflux, and in general it is a method of last resort. That is why (on top of crying that will be part of it) I am so reluctant to do it. So for now I am just gathering all the info I can find.
Also, his gong to sleep routine has improved (knocking on wood) and now I do not have to walk with him in my arms for a very long time, it is most of the time bath, jammies, lullaby while holding him on my shoulder, then paci and a bit of shushing and then in the crib, sometimes I have to pick him up to repeat the shushing part, but last couple of days putting him to sleep has been quite manageable. And at night he only wakes up once to eat. His Wake up time is still not consistent but I blame the short nap, because of them the BT is not consistent. But I am hopeful - now that 6 moths are getting closer maybe he will outgrow the short naps.
And thank you for voicing your opinion! My husband is kinda pushing me to sleep trim him so that he learns to fall asleep by himself and like I mentioned I am reluctant to do PUPD, and having somebody else support me in not rushing into PUPD is such a relief!!! 
Lara

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2015, 13:36:47 pm »
Hugs hun. (())

The short naps must be super frustrating. But your latest post sounds really good! Anythjng you'd like us to think about? What's DH worried about? What's his day looking like right now? But don't worry about the details if you're reasonably happy for now.

Of course there are lots of ways of sleep training - routine being the first one - and lots of gentle ways too. 
 
After I posted yesterday, I remembered that LO is touchy as well.  All babies are individuals of course but PU/PD would've sent my touchy into orbit! Not good!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 13:39:28 pm by weaver »
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2015, 18:13:11 pm »
Anne, I will be happy to post our last two days!
yesterday:
WU 6.30
E 7.45
S 8.50-10.00 - I tried w2s and stayed next to the crib and shushed him and put my hands on him when he was stirring, I did it for 1 hr and then left the room, he woke up 10 minutes after I left the room
E 11.20 solids
E 12.00
S 12.40-13.05
E 15.20
S 14.45-15.15 after this nap  I just could not get him to fall asleep for another nap around 17-00 - I tried for 30 minutes and just gave up, he was not inerested in eating either
BT 18.20 (he was OT for sure but he was knocked out in a couple of minutes)
E 18.52 - he woke up and I fed him and he fell asleep
DF 23.00
NF 03.10

Today:
WU 6.30
E 7.30 solids
E 7.50 bottle
S 8.45-9.35 I took him when he started stirring (after about 30 minutes) and put him next to me on the couch (I was also trying to have a nap)
E 11.20
S 11.55-13.20
E 14.40 solids
S 16.00-16.30 - I went out for a walk with a stroller hoping to get a longer nap out of him, but he took a very long time falling asleep and had only 30 min nap
E 17.10
BT 19.00 - he was showing no signs of being tired but then in one momnt just went from nice mood to a bad one and putting him to sleep was not super fast, I spent maybe 15 minutes, but this I do not mind
now he is stirring from time to time (i look at the baby monitor) and i even rushed in once thinking he was awake but thankfully I paused before touching him and he just stirred and seemed to be going back to sleep

We moved him to another bedroom yesterday, one week prior to that we switched him from a co-sleeper to a crib but it was standing in our bedroom next to our bed for a week, and since yesterday morning he is in a separate room, for now I sleep in the same room as him, on the couch, the idea is for me to get back to our bedroom in about a week if all goes well.
Also, in terms of props - we use paci, but it is a real necessity only for naps, as he has it most of his naps, and for nightsleep he only uses it to fall asleep and then he spits it out and sleeps ok without it, and even if i try to use it (when he was sometimes finishing the night in our bed next to me and started stirring and kicking I would try to use paci to get him and me to sleep a bit longer) he would be really not eager to take it, he would press his lips and turn his head from side to side avoiding the paci. Also, couple of weeks ago he started taking it out of his mouth with his hand and even succeded once to put it back in correctly, other times he would put it the wrong side in :) so, I am hoping he would develop enough coordination soon to be able to reinsert the paci if he wants it.

As for my husband - well, he just believes in making babies as independent as possible as early as possible, so he would want him to fall asleep without any actions from our side, for him the ideal situation would be: bath, jammies, put into crib and leave and the baby would go to sleep by himself. When I was pregnant we talked a lot about teaching our LO independence from early on, but I mostly talked about food, that he would be joining us at the dinner table and we would be giving himjunks of our food to nibble on the moment he is old enought to do that. But my DH also wants him to be independent in falling asleep. He is also now talking a lot about weaning our LO off the NF. For me of course the well-being of my son is more important than my comfort, besides, I do not think we have it that bad after all - he only wakes up to eat once now, and who knows maybe in one month, when our LO is 6 months old, he might decide to not eat at night anymore.

As for me, the only reason I am considering pupd is to make him take longer naps, as he has been sleeping 20-30 minutes since 2 months and I can tell you after 3 months of it I would like him to have a bit more predictable daytime nap schedule as his short naps make it difficult to stick to feeding schedule as sometimes the times to sleep and eat overlap and for me it is always an issue to figure out when to feed him not to feed him to sleep and also so that he does not go to sleep hungry. And of course a predictable eat-sleep schedule would make it easier to plan activities like going to a doctor or a massage or a meeting with friends.

also, I rememebered another reason I was thinking about pupd - I read somewhere that between 4 and 6 months they develop object permamnence and I am afraid that getting him to lose the paci and learn to fall asleep independently after 6 mo might be very difficult, do you have any experience in this area? Is there the better time to do pupd?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 18:36:20 pm by LaraDaisy »
Lara

Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2015, 05:32:10 am »
And this morning he woke up at 5:30, at least that's when I heard him cry, but he was rubbing his eyes and yawning and I was not able to wake up yet myself so I rocked him a bit and put him to sleep together with me on the couch, I think he fell asleep (I did) till 6:10 and then I repeated the process and then we both slept till 7. I know it is bad to rock him to sleep and put him next to me but at 5:30 this morning I just could not even think straight... I think months of lack of sleep are taking their toll on me.
So, the EW this morning, is it because of bad naps?
Lara

Offline weaver

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2015, 18:46:54 pm »
In the nicest possible way, Lara, and I'm sure he's a lovely man, but DH needs a bit of a reality check.  You have a *baby*.  He will not be independent until... well.... DH might not want to know about 5 yos needing cuddles to get to sleep sometimes, or 3 yos waking in the night, but these are the things that happen in real life. Your baby needs his parents, and he will need them in awkward and displeasing ways (like the middle of the night, for no apparent reason) on and off for years to come.  What's more, the best way to foster independence in a young child, even a baby, is to meet those needs.  A child who feels secure is more likely to act secure, if you get me. 
for him the ideal situation would be: bath, jammies, put into crib and leave and the baby would go to sleep by himself.
Yes, that would be the ideal, wouldn't it? ;)  But a touchy refluxer is unlikely to do that, and so are most babies I know.  They need human contact and intervention in their little lives.  And will keep needing it til they're 18! But hopefully not to get to sleep :P

At the same time, I think there's a spectrum of 'baby reasonable' and 'baby unreasonable'.  1 NW is great! 7 NWs would be unreasonable and we'd need to try to do something about it.  Right now, LO is firmly on the reasonable end of the spectrum :)

As regards him being in his own room, and without being alarmist, I would say please check the SIDS recommendations where you are.  You must do what is right for your family, but the recommendation here in the UK is that babies should share a room at least for the first six months. For us, we had LOs in a cot in our room til well past a year and we swapped the adult sleeping arrangement around to whatever suited that day/week/month, sometimes both of us, sometimes one of us.  TBH, I asked OH to sleep in another room when LO2 was born, when the NWs were most frequent in the first six weeks or so, and it worked beautifully.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/reducing-risk-cot-death.aspx

Back to your routine.  I think what you did this morning was spot on.  You've got to do what you need to get through, snuggling in bed in the early morning and both having a doze is fine, imo.  The thing is, you're avoiding OT (for both of you) and that's a good plan in itself.

Have a look at this link and see if it helps at all - just average A times - at 4 mos you'd be looking at 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs, though he's maybe closer to 5 mos now?
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
His A times are looking a bit variable to me.

On day 1 your As are 2 hr 20, 2 hr 40, then 1 hr 40 (did he fall asleep then? or was this planned? if planned then I would push this A time).  Then he  conks out and does a good night.  On day 2, it's 2 hr 15, 2 hr 20, then 2 hr 40.

In fact, both days look fine and day two in particular looks very good to me. Getting that longer nap in the middle of the day will make a difference for him, as he'll be better rested, but just tired enough to get a bit of a sleep later.  At about 5 mos, you're moving into reducing the cat nap territory, 30/40 mins might be all he needs.  Around 6 mos most babies will drop that CN altogether, you see, and you'll just have two naps. 

Specifically, for that first nap on day 1, I sort of 'hear' you sounding a bit 'agh! he woke up!' but overall he did a nap of 1 hr 10 minutes.  It could be that his sleep cycle is 35 mins, and if it is, then he did two cycles and woke up ready to go. 

My touchy LO needed his paci/soother to relax and sleep.  He's 5 yo now (no more paci, in case you're worried!) but he still needs a comfort item sometimes.  I think the key thing is to make the difference in your mind between a prop and a comfort item.  For us, the paci was never a prop. He needed it, but we never had to wake up to replug it, not once, because he never woke up because he lost it, iyswim.  So it helped him, and caused us no issues, so we left him with it.  If you think the paci is waking him up in any way, then I would consider trying to get rid of it, but if not, I wouldn't worry.  I don't think it's a bad thing in itself.  Others might differ.  If you do want to get rid of the paci, right now or in the future, I would go with 'gentle removal'.
Gentle Removal Plan

Lots of babies stir around 5 am, it's totally normal.  Sometimes they wake right up, because they are hungry due to a GS or whatever.  But is he actually waking at that time?  I remember lying stock still in bed trying not to breathe too loudly so that they'd settle back to sleep (silly me!) but that did work a lot of the time.  If you think he might settle back down, try to resist the urge to intervene.  If you can settle him in the cot, do! Gentle hands on might work. But don't beat yourself up for getting both of you back to sleep til 7.

That's a bit of an essay! In a nutshell, I honestly don't see that much wrong here :) hope that's a helpful thing to say.

*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2015, 18:46:08 pm »
Anne, I appreciate all the information and advice!!!

the best way to foster independence in a young child, even a baby, is to meet those needs.  A child who feels secure is more likely to act secure, if you get me.
I know! I am not into hardcore attachment parenting but I am a very strong believer in giving the babies what they need/want so that they get to develop their own independence taking the time they need, and not to mention the trust - I do think this way is the only way to establish trust between me and my son so that even when he is a rebellious teen he will trust me!

SIDS recommendations where you are
Here they just recommend back sleeping which is the case for us - my LO will fall asleep on his side but then roll over to his back and sleep the rest of the night on his back. Besides, I am sleeping on the sofa-bed in the same room as him to facilitate the transition period. His crib is totally empty and on top of that we have a special breathable mattress cover and sheets.

Have a look at this link and see if it helps at all - just average A times - at 4 mos you'd be looking at 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs, though he's maybe closer to 5 mos now?
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
His A times are looking a bit variable to me.
On day 1 your As are 2 hr 20, 2 hr 40, then 1 hr 40 (did he fall asleep then? or was this planned? if planned then I would push this A time).  Then he  conks out and does a good night.  On day 2, it's 2 hr 15, 2 hr 20, then 2 hr 40.

In fact, both days look fine and day two in particular looks very good to me. Getting that longer nap in the middle of the day will make a difference for him, as he'll be better rested, but just tired enough to get a bit of a sleep later.  At about 5 mos, you're moving into reducing the cat nap territory, 30/40 mins might be all he needs.  Around 6 mos most babies will drop that CN altogether, you see, and you'll just have two naps. 

Specifically, for that first nap on day 1, I sort of 'hear' you sounding a bit 'agh! he woke up!' but overall he did a nap of 1 hr 10 minutes.  It could be that his sleep cycle is 35 mins, and if it is, then he did two cycles and woke up ready to go. 
My LO is actually 5 months and 10 days today :) so his A times are 2-2,5 hrs and i keep track of those. The one A time which was 1hr40min was the time that I could not stay up any longer and he seemed sleepy enough to join me in bed, so I just put us both to sleep, what can I say sometimes mamma needs some daysleep too :) This is not a habit for us, so his A times are more than 2hrs.

I think he is teething, at least seems the right time for it. Yesterday, he woke up with a fever and we had quite a rough day in terms of nap - he would cry for no reason and would get knocked out mid cry in my arms and then would only sleep in my arms or next to me. The same was for his night sleep - I barely had time to have dinner and went to bed without brushing my teeth - he just could not stay alone longer than several minutes. Also, last night we co-slept, and once again I am sure that co-sleeping is not for us, the way he kicks and throws his arms around... I feel like I was having a fight the whole night :)

today no fever during the day but naps are not good: it took me more than 50 minutes to put him to sleep for his 1st nap and after 2hr10min of A time, so his total A time was more like 3 hrs, and my w2s did not work (i did it at 15 min since he sometimes wakes up after 20 min nap), he just woke up after 30 min. The same was for 2nd nap - very long putting to sleep session with a lot of crying and then only 30 min nap (I did w2s at 15 min). For his 3rd nap he fell asleep in the stroller, like 2 minutes away from home, I was running home to put him in his crib but did not make it. And at home I just took him out of the stroller and let him sleep in my arms for about 1 hr to prevent too much OT for BT.

I have to say he keeps me in shape :) every time I think I got him figured out and our BT routine is under control and manageable he changes! Now he does not like to be in my arms, he literally cries harder when I pick him. So what i do now is I carry him on my shoulder a bit, sing a lullaby, then transfer to the crib, give him paci and shush while putting my arm on him, in most cases he fusses for quite a while, he thrashes his lovey and rolls from one side to another, but if i try to pick him up he cries, so i just turn him on his side from time to time and one of those times he falls asleep.

Once again, huge thanks from me for pointing out that pupd might not be the best choice for us!!! I really think in our case if the A time is right and if he gets better naps then BT is not too difficult, it is long sometimes, but pupd is not a way to shorten BT routine.
So I think I should rather focus on getting those naps right.
Lara

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2015, 18:38:16 pm »
Hi there. I have not followed your thread but just wanted to stop by and see how things are going?
I'm not sure if weaver has consistent internet connection just now and wasn't really sure whether you were in need of continued support or if you feel like your question has now been answered?


Offline LaraDaisy

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Re: 4 mo: help needed with adjusting WU time & go to sleep routine
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2015, 04:12:01 am »
Hi creations! THank you for passing by!!!
Yes, I do actually still need help with early wakings :( Now it is 6 here and he's been up since 5 and i tried to shush him and rock him and hold him back to sleep and put him next to myself in bed but it does not work. It is getting very difficult - I still do not get any sleep during the day with the short naps (that i now try to get him to extend but it means i have to sit next ot the crib for the whole nap) and my DH is away on business and I am feeling really bad, how i am supposed to function on this amount of sleep? I am also supposed to enjoy this time withy my baby, but how?
What can I do to deal with EWs?
I went through the reasons in the link Early Waking and I don't know which one is applicable to him. He is not hungry and the room is dark and there is white noise. I think he is not OT and his A time is not short.
I am also not thinking straight right now... 
Maybe some people have it worse than I do and i just need to embrace things the way thay are but his short naps + EW make me a very tired and unhappy person...
Lara