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Offline alexgrant

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5 months - a few questions
« on: January 26, 2016, 21:40:55 pm »
Hi

My son is 5 months old. He generally sleeps well but I think could do better. I have 3 questions:

1) He uses a soother and I am afraid this is becoming a prop. How do I ween him from using a soother? Shh/pat?

2) He wakes in the night around 2 or 3am. I have not been feeding him at that time and instead have been giving him his soother. He sleeps until 5 or so and then I nurse him at that waking. Should I feed at the first waking instead of giving a soother? He has often slept from 8-5am so that is why I stopped feeding at earlier wakings.

3) When should my son be expected to sleep through the night? He is fed 5 bottles of expressed breast milk and formula mixed - about 7 oz. We have also started brown rice cereal and some veggies.

Thanks

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 21:12:46 pm »
Hi there, glad to hear things are generally going well sleep-wise :)

Can I ask how he's getting to sleep currently? You just pop him down and he settles himself with the soother? Why do you feel it's becoming a prop? Does he always need it to go back to sleep, or keep waking up if it falls out? Yes, you can try weaning using shh pat or PUPD, if you feel that it's not working well any more, although many LOs will actually use one until much older - I can't speak from personal experience as neither of mine ever wanted one!

Hard to know whether he's hungry at 2/3am, but I'd expect that if he's ravenous, he'd have a hard time resettling without a feed. Have you tried feeding at that time to see what happens? If he only takes a tiny feed, you can know that he's probably not really hungry. If on the other hand he takes a full feed, then probably best to feed him then and resettle by other means later on. Alternatively, you could try a dream feed - have you tried that before?

As for when to expect them to sleep through the night - by that, do you mean without a feed? Of course, even once night feeds are weaned, they can wake for a whole host of reasons, so I'll assume you mean lasting the night without a feed... Some LOs will continue to take a night feed until around a year, or even longer, although I think most are ready for night weaning before that. Mine both continued the dream feed until around 9/10mo. At 5mo actually two feeds per night is still pretty common, although many are on one feed by then. Solids won't necessarily help them to get through the night, actually they can sometimes make sleep worse whilst their digestive systems adjust. Most of their calories should be from milk at this age, solids are just for introducing tastes and learning to eat in a new way.



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2016, 02:22:02 am »
Thanks for your reply. I forgot to check until today.

He has always fallen asleep on his own by me plopping him down in his crib and walking away. He sometimes has needed some patting but generally he calms himself. I was worried that the soother was becoming a prop because when he would wake up from a nap at 45 minutes, he would not fall back asleep and I thought it was because the soother had fallen out. I ended up taking away his soother and he falls asleep without it. However, after several good naps, I am finding that we are back to generally having short naps (45min), so perhaps the soother was not a problem. However, I am trying to extend naps and not having much success. I am trying wake to sleep and sometimes it works but not often. Any other suggestions? Could he be ready to move from 3 naps to 2 naps? I have to say that we are in the process of a renovation and so he has having to nap in his crib but in my room or in the playpen in the basement.

As for the night feed, I don't think he is ravenous. He'll nurse for 15 minutes and then basically stop and want to sleep. I tried not feeding him a few times and he just got upset so now I am nursing him if he wakes. I have never tried a dream feed....and I am afraid to try it! I don't want to mess up something if it does not really need fixing. I did mean sleeping through the night without a feed.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2016, 14:03:21 pm »
Hi there, short naps can be a sign that A times need extending, which will eventually take him to two naps. Please could you post a recent day's routine, in the form:
Up and E: 7am
S: 9-9:45 (tried to resettle without success, got up at 10:15)
E: 10:30
S: 11:30-12:30
... Or whatever it looked like for you! Please include things like how easily he fell asleep, whether you tried to resettle him, how he was on waking (eg crying or happy) and anything else you think might be relevant - eg noise waking him.

It's also worth thinking about the environment in which he's going to sleep - is it very dark? Mine were very sensitive to visual distractions and got on much better in pitch darkness, but I know others can be less sensitive. If you're having work done and it's very noisy it's also possible that may be affecting his sleep and making it more difficult for him to go back to sleep once he wakes. Do you use white noise? That can be really helpful for blocking out some noises a little.

As for the nights, I'd personally keep a feed for now, 5mo is very young to be going all night without one. Have you tried feeding at 1/2am when he first wakes? He may then manage to go through until morning without another waking. Or continue to feed at 5am if he still settles easily after that.

As for extending naps - it may be that a routine tweak will help, but otherwise how long have you been trying wake to sleep? Often people find that doing it for three days and then not doing it the fourth day (to see what happens), then doing it again for the next three days (only if needed), etc can help. Some will do it for more than three days at a stretch, but the point is it can take a little time to work. Alternatively you could wait until he wakes and give him time to resettle himself without your intervention, provided he's not really upset. He may surprise you! Or if he is upset, go in and lay a hand gently on him, say your sleepy phrase if you have one, or just shh if he's used to that, and walk back out again, as if at the start of the nap. Wait a while to see what happens, if he's crying, go back in and repeat... Or, at this age, some LOs who can settle themselves at the start of a nap need more help to go back off half way through, so you might have more success staying in the room for longer, or laying a hand on him until he's almost asleep. Experiment to see what seems to help him most - don't forget, you know him best :)



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2016, 23:09:32 pm »
I will post a typical day in the next few days as today was an off day with a lunch out.

I think it will definitely help once he is back in his room. It is a darker space and his space. But at the beginning of this whole process (reno), he was doing good naps (1 1/2 hours) wherever he was and sleeping through really loud noises. It is much quieter now as they are almost finished. He does not wake up from the noise but he does wake up at exactly 45 minutes. I think perhaps I need to increase his A time. It is usually around 1h45-2 hours but maybe he needs more? If I increase his A time, that means I will be moving towards a 3.5-4 hour EASY. Is that ok for his age? He is just over 5 months.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 20:04:53 pm »
Yes that would definitely be about right for his age - the increase, I mean :) Those 45min naps are a classic sign of needing A time extended, especially around this age. Perhaps start with the first A time and keep the others the same, see if you can get a longer first nap that way, and then start to work on the second A time, and so on... But yes, do post a day's routine whenever you can as it can often help to have new eyes on it.



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 01:09:21 am »
Today I increased the A time and we had more success. Of course, I will have to see if this continues. I increased the A time to 2h 15 minutes and he had no difficulty with it. Here is what happened today:

E  7:45am
A
S 10:00  (woke up exactly at 10:45. I did PUPD and patting for 30 minutes and he went back to sleep). I woke him up at 12.
E  12pm
A
S  2:15 (he slept really well and I woke him up at 4)
E  4pm
A
E  7
A
S 7:15

He woke up for a feed at 4:30am and then went back to sleep until 7:30

Day 2

E  7:30
A
S  9:45  (fell asleep without difficulty, woke up at 45 minutes but seemed to fall back asleep. I had to go in 20 minutes later and all I had to do was put my hand on him and he resettled)
E  11:45

S 2:15 (fell asleep well but not quite 1 1/2 hour nap)
E 3:30
A
S 7:00

He woke for a feed at 2:15am and then slept until 7:20am

Day 3

E  7:30
A
S  10:00 (fell asleep no problem)
E  11:15
A
S  1:30 (woke up 25 minutes later due to noise, took a while to fall asleep again by doing PUPD and then he slept until 3:15)
E  3:30
A
S  7:15

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 21:06:46 pm »
Hey that's great that he's taking better naps again now :)

Tbh though I think I'd stick with 2h15mins A for a little while longer - I suspect that the 1h 15min naps he took on days 2 and 3 after a 2.5h A time were a bit OT. Same for his second nap on day 3, I'd usually try and reduce the A time a little after a shorter nap, however it's good that he got back off again and it's often easier to resettle a OT nap rather than work out what to do after a UT nap.

Also just wanted to mention that you don't have to wake him to keep feeds at 4h intervals, you can stretch out the morning feeds if he's still asleep (although we do tend to encourage waking them if they go much beyond 2h), and the third and BT feeds can be closer together. Actually, I was amazed by the A times he's managing between his second nap and BT - how does he seem on these A times? How easily does he drop off at BT? Have you tried offering a CN to help him through? Actually from the days you've posted I don't see the classic signs of OT at BT (struggling to settle; waking soon after falling asleep at BT; early waking the next morning), but it would be something to watch out for with such long A times there. Most LOs have to get to 3h A time throughout the day before they're able to drop their third nap, although of course yours might be the exception ;)



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 15:38:48 pm »
He settles without any problems at bedtime. In fact, it is the easiest time to put him down to sleep. He does not cry or need settling. He just falls asleep. I am keeping a close eye on not getting him OT and will do a CN if necessary. I tried last night actually with a CN although he was perfectly content playing. He only got really upset in his bed and after 15 minutes, it was not worth it as I would have waken him up 15 minutes later. He ended up falling asleep really well by 7:15. He did wake up at 1:40am, which is early for him, but he just started rolling from his back to his front yesterday and sure enough, he was stuck on his stomach. I nursed him and he went back to sleep until 7:30am.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 20:56:55 pm »
Sounds like you're doing just right by him then, keep an eye but if it's not broken, don't 'fix', right? ;)



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2016, 15:34:30 pm »
He does often wake up after 45 minutes though and I have to help him into the next sleep cycle by either doing PUPD or placing a hand on him. Will he gradually learn to go into the next sleep cycle on his own or is there something else I should be doing?

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 19:40:54 pm »
Well tbh that 45min WU is a classic sign of being a bit OT by BT, so perhaps try for a slightly earlier BT and see if that fixes it - if he's OT, he may eventually learn to get back to sleep after that WU by himself, but  he'll likely still wake, so the best way really is to get him to bed a bit earlier so that he's not OT. Just try 15mins or so and see what happens...



Offline alexgrant

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 19:47:59 pm »
I should have said the 45 minute wake up is for naps. He does not wake up after I put him to bed for the night.

Offline trimbler

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Re: 5 months - a few questions
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2016, 20:29:07 pm »
Oh ok sorry I completely misunderstood! Hmm well tbh with naps, that 45min WU is pretty common at this age, I personally just did as you are, and from time to time they surprised me by making it through the transition themselves - gradually this became a more and more frequent occurrence until it became the norm. However if you're braver than I :P you could try wake to sleep for naps - here's a link...

How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)