Help with 4.5 mo old stretching A time

[Mjh2mom]

Thanks for reminding me of the progress! It's easy to lose sight when you've been sleep deprived for so long . If it's the 4mo regression fun I hope since it started so early for us that it will end soon :p
He didn't fall asleep, still, until 8:10 so I hope he pushes his first stretch a little later- I'm heading to bed and hope I can sleep before he wakes! 

[Buntybear]

Sounds like you had a great day of naps - perfect!

Hope you are having a better night!

[Mjh2mom]

So after 2 bad nights- last night was an improvement!!

PD at 7.45 (1hr45 A time) and was asleep at 8:15
Woke at 11:45, paci and moved him in crib and left
12:30 woke and was down at bottom of crib again but this time I left him and just gave paci...and he slept until 2:30 (hey 2 hours is an improvement!  )
Nursed him at 2:30 and then he slept until 5:30, quick check and then woke at 6:50

So 3 wake ups and all went back to sleep or left him to, quickly/easily!

Today I put him down right before 2 hours the last two naps and the first one was only 1hr15 min and the 2nd one only 1hr5 min so I think after the adjustments and better sleep at night I need to jump up his A time even more (2.25hr?)

fingers crossed we keep moving the right direction!

[Lindsay27]

Yay for improvement!  It's sad when we get excited about a 3hr stretch isn't it?  I'm sure my DD slept better as a newborn.  I KNOW she did!

Today I put him down right before 2 hours the last two naps and the first one was only 1hr15 min and the 2nd one only 1hr5 min so I think after the adjustments and better sleep at night I need to jump up his A time even more (2.25hr?)

Yes I'd say those naps were likely UT.  What A time were you working with before?  I think I would get up to at least 2.15hr and if you think he can handle more go for it!

[Mjh2mom]

Yes it is sad, ha! I remember naively saying to my husband when my son was only a few weeks old and was doing long stretches- "I bet he will sleep through the night soon!" 

Prior A time is the crazy thing- I was putting him down anywhere from 1hr(!!) to an 1hr20 for his first nap. Sometimes the other naps I'd do 1.5 or 2 because of errands but they always resulted in a short OT nap- but I now know it's because he was OT from the first nap being so short. It never occurred to me the short nap could be from needing more A time, so instead I kept dialing it back

So we've made quite a jump the past 3 days! I did put him down at 2hr15 for his 3rd nap- he woke at 26 min and fussed for a few then went back to sleep for an hour.

Bedtime we did 2hr from that 3rd nap, he had been a little fussy and fell asleep easily. I'm still trying to figure out if he needs more or less time before bed...or it might depend on the day.

I still can't believe we've jumped an hour in A time in a few days!!

[Mjh2mom]

Ok I need help again!

So yesterday we had the first 2 naps that were shorter than the previous day's (but still longer than past few weeks!) at an A time of 1hr50ish. Woke happy from both. Then the 3rd nap was a 2hr15wt and he woke at 26min fussying but went back to sleep for an hour.

This am I did first nap at 2hr5min and he went to sleep pretty much within a couple of minutes and didn't cry in doing so, but tossed and turned (more jerk like than just turning) several times and wike at 36 minutes fussying. He wasn't full on crying but I left him to see what he'd do and he did escalate to more crying and I couldn't settle him back to sleep (he became more awake and fought me). I just put him in swing and he doesn't appear to be falling back asleep but isn't crying.

He didn't have a great night last night (was waking every 1.5hr or so after first 3hr stretch, and during A time today was more fussy than had been, was wanting my attention more/impatient. But yet during routine he was calm. Did I stretch him too far?

I hate seeing progress then jumping back like this. Especially for the first nap, makes me scared for the rest of the day again 

[Lindsay27]

A 30 min nap can typically mean OT, though that's not set in stone.  I really found when my DD was at this stage of approaching the 2hr A time that our A times had to be bang on, even 5mins too long made a difference as crazy as that sounds.  Once we were over 2hrs then it didn't seem to matter as much. 

So given that it seems 1.50hr was too short and 2.05 was too long (possibly), that is an added 15mins, so maybe just scale back slightly?

I FEEL your bad nights.  Horrendous over here and much of the same, she isn't even doing 2hr stretches most nights (and used to do an 8hr stretch!).

[Mjh2mom]

That's good to know I'm not alone!

I was just thinking I should give the 1hr50 A time in am a few days. I was changing every day which makes it hard to gauage what's working. I started seeing progress at 1hr45min so I think sticking with that within 10min or so for a few days will help me to see better. It's so hard when UT and OT look so similar and when you can have both in one naptime!

I mistakenly put him down for his 2nd nap at 1hr50 and he pretty much went right to sleep so I am preparing for an OT nap he did go back to sleep from the first nap after 30min (I moved him to swing after 20) for 40 min and woke crying.

It's so hard to gauge the rest of the day's A times if the first nap is off. 2 days ago he had a good nap after only 1hr45 A time (PD at 1hr35) and that was following a decent first nap. it does make sense that though he needed to move up in A time, an hour plus jump is prob a bit much, in one week! :/

We'll see how a few days of 1hr50 goes for first nap

[Mjh2mom]

So, I've had mastitis 2x now this week    I'm not engorged, it happens when I get NO SLEEP.

I know NW are part of the 4mo regression but is it possible to be from being undertired? He's not waking and wanting to play, or waking and staying awake for a long time, or waking early for the day, happy. Those are all the undertired signs, right? He just starts tossing and turning for 20-30min then wakes crying. A few times last night he self settled and others I had to go in and just give him paci (he wakes then spits it out) he will sometimes settle back to sleep and other times wake within 20-40min. Now this morning he's been "asleep" and tossing and turning and dozing off from 5:40 and it's now 7:40. I've always heard to start the day the same time and am trying to fit the catnap in as it is and don't want to keep perpetuating a late BT (because of late CN because of a late start), but should I let him sleep since he is waking so much?

Here's yesterday's EAS
Wu: 7:15
E: 7:30
A: 7:15-9:20(PD) 2hr5
S: 9:23-10:03, woke crying (OT?) and moved to swing after trying to settle for 30min, 10:39-11:19

E: 11:30
A: 11:20- 1:10, 1hr50min, was fussy off and on all A time
S: 1:12-1:52 woke crying, settled with paci 2:08-2:22, woke crying hard moved to swing passed right out 2:32-3:17

E: 3:20
A: 3:20-5:00, 1hr40
S: 5:04-5:38, woke content

E: 5:40
A: 5:40-7:15 1hr35wt, was hyper and fussy during A time & routine. Fussy and whiny once I put him down, soothed a few times and eventually mantra cried then fell asleep
S: 7:49-still going will wake at 8 am if he isn't awake ( I hate the inconsistency of the day starting anywhere from 6:40-8a-- isn't that hard for them to regulate circadium rhythm as well? Or is that once he starts sleeping better??)

[Lindsay27]

I actually think your first nap might have been UT, even though he woke crying it was about a 40min nap and if he took a long time to resettle that can be a sign of UT.  So I think it puts you into a UT/OT loop situation where he is undertired for the first nap so short naps, but then is overtired for the rest of the day because of the short nap. I think the hyperness and fussing at the end of day is just a symptom of OT.

Are you feeding at night at all? Or doing a DF?

[Mjh2mom]

Hmm interesting. The first nap awake time is so important but yet so difficult when you have such a poor sleeper at night. I feel like that has to affect how long they can go before their nap, as well as how they nap??

What do you make of yesterday's EASY?
WU 7:57a
E: 8:00
A: 7:57-9:47 (1.50) was  fussy off and on during A time- didn't want me to leave him alone long
S: 9:47-11:52- was very calm during routine and dropped odd immediately. Which would normally be OT but he slept 2hrs and I watched him he transitioned sleep cycles very peacefully. And woke happy??

E: 12:00
A: 11:52-1:40- had been calm during A time but i needed to rest so was anxious to get him down    he was fussy during routine (I'm now thinking this is another UT sign- like he's mad bc he's not ready?? He was fussy when I tried to nurse for a top off too which he does when he's not hungry-- clearly he doesn't like me forcing things on him! :p )
S: 1:42-2:05-- 23 min nap!! Woke happy and WOULD NOT resettle. He laid there for a bit whining but very alert then I tried to resettle and move to swing and he got VERY mad. So after 30 or so I got him up and he was fine and we played.

E: 3:00
A: 2:05-4:11- went up at 1hr50 since the short nap figured he'd be tired and he got really fussy when we got up there so I left nursery walked around with him until he calmed
S: 4:14-5:26, again he dropped off pretty quick and slept a while, does this mean it was timed right or OT from last nap? I know sometime with OT they wake early and cry and other times they will catch up sleep

E: 5:30
A: 5:26- 7:35, was a little impatient during playtime so we. Decided to start bath in case he needed to go down soon and he got REALLY fussy during pjs. Wouldn't take his bottle etc so
I decided to try leaving the nursery again and he calmed and took a whole bottle downstairs. Then I held him and walked around again until he stopped squirming. Again he dropped off immediately but didn't wake early in crying like he use to do OT.

Seems like we've been putting him down around 2hrs-2hrs 10 for bed and anything earlier he fussed and takes 30min+ To settle. He even did the 3hr A time last weekend and did fine.


It's so confusing! He slept "better" the night before this and even had a 2hr stretch before waking at 8 yet the 1hr50 A time resulted in a 2hr nap. I would of thought he needed more A time with better night sleep.

I've never done a dream feed as he use to go pretty long when he was younger. And now anytime one fed before 1a (and sometimes even then) he doesn't eat well or will even get mad/fussy. I know, rare, a BF baby who doesn't want to eat?!

Maybe I will try feeding him when he wakes around 10:30 (or whenever he wakes that first stretch (usually 3 hrs) iIve never tried feeding that first waking as it was always 3-4 from feeding and so I figured he couldn't be hungry if he wouldn't take a feed at 1a?

The hyperness thing is strange too as it started a few weeks ago. I assumed OT as well but it happens during every A time now and so I think it might be just his age or trying to burn off energy. I think when he goes from being hyper to fussy 1 second later and back and forth (very spaz like) that is OT.

Why do I have such a confusing child?! Lol. He's yawned 4 times already and it's only been an hour of A time :/

[Lindsay27]

Often if they've had a bad night, the first nap can almost be seen as an extension of night sleep, especially if the A time is low. 

Sometimes as babies get older their tired signs become less reliable and boredom (for lack of a better word) can mask itself as being tired.  Sometimes just a change in activity can kind of shake them out of it.

A: 11:52-1:40- had been calm during A time but i needed to rest so was anxious to get him down    he was fussy during routine (I'm now thinking this is another UT sign- like he's mad bc he's not ready?? He was fussy when I tried to nurse for a top off too which he does when he's not hungry-- clearly he doesn't like me forcing things on him! :p )
S: 1:42-2:05-- 23 min nap!! Woke happy and WOULD NOT resettle. He laid there for a bit whining but very alert then I tried to resettle and move to swing and he got VERY mad. So after 30 or so I got him up and he was fine and we played.

I think you are right and this nap was UT.  Since the first nap was really good, he probably needed this A time stretched a bit, especially because 2hrs would be on the lower end for 4.5/5 months.  Even and extra 15mins can do the trick.  My DD is 5 months in a few days and our first A is usually about 2.10 but the second can often be 2.20/2.5hrs

A: 2:05-4:11- went up at 1hr50 since the short nap figured he'd be tired and he got really fussy when we got up there so I left nursery walked around with him until he calmed
S: 4:14-5:26, again he dropped off pretty quick and slept a while, does this mean it was timed right or OT from last nap? I know sometime with OT they wake early and cry and other times they will catch up sleep

Hard to say on this one - it's a good idea to shorten A time a tad after a short nap, so good thinking there, but I would think that by 4pm after only 1 good nap he's started to get OT.

A: 5:26- 7:35, was a little impatient during playtime so we. Decided to start bath in case he needed to go down soon and he got REALLY fussy during pjs. Wouldn't take his bottle etc so
I decided to try leaving the nursery again and he calmed and took a whole bottle downstairs. Then I held him and walked around again until he stopped squirming. Again he dropped off immediately but didn't wake early in crying like he use to do OT.

Again, same as above, I think a little OT at this point which is why the fussiness

2 thoughts about the 10pm waking - I think you can try feeding at this time just to see what happens, however my other thought is that this is actually an OT waking.

The hyperness thing is strange too as it started a few weeks ago. I assumed OT as well but it happens during every A time now and so I think it might be just his age or trying to burn off energy. I think when he goes from being hyper to fussy 1 second later and back and forth (very spaz like) that is OT.

Do you know what personality type he is?  Textbook/Spirited/Grumpy etc?  He sounds a lot like my DS who was/is spirited and who would become really affected by OT...hyper tired energy is really the only way to describe it.

[Mjh2mom]

I just put him down after 2.05 for first nap and he woke at 36 min, quietly looking around!  yesterday after a good night sleep (for him) 1hr50min gave a 2hr nap now today 2.05 resulted in UT! And he was hyper and fussy on and off all A time this am. I've been doing a longer wind down to ease him into the longer A time, especially when he's fussy and seems to be fighting me-- but maybe it's making him tired before he's ready?? I'm just not sure what to do anymore.

From the quiz he's touchy with some spirited. Startled easily, hates bright sun but is very jerky with his movements. The kid is confusing!
Maybe the increased fussiness/fighting me the last 2 days meant he was ready for a big jump again? Especially since he's behind in his A time??

It's this first nap that's so hard to nail down yet so important for how the whole day (and night ir sounds like) pans out.

I was thinking the same thing on trying to feed when he wakes that first time. It's always 3-4 hrs after he goes to sleep so maybe it is hunger. Sometimes he's still pretty asleep so I didn't want to wake him all the way but might as well try!!

Thanks for all your help and getting back to me quickly since each day is so different!

[Mjh2mom]

Also, when he wakes early and I leave him to see if he will back to sleep (and to train him to sleep) do I still go off the time he woke for A time?  Or the time I get him up? Does that affect A time too? (Like if going off time the wake, add extra because they are resting for some time longer?)

[Mjh2mom]

Going downhill fast

First nap I PD at 2hr3 min- slept 36 min woke quietly. 2nd nap I put down 1hr50 as he had been fussy (assuming OT from first nap) and he slept 30min and woke quietly. He did seem to try to fall asleep a few times but didn't. I got him up and we went out and about. He was quiet alert, nor hyper at all, he yawned 3x in a row at 1hr30 and started rubbing his eyes. He was going on 3.5hr since a feed so I went to feed him and he immediately got
Fussy as soon as I got him out of car seat. He became inconsolable. Would bob on and off the breast screaming. Finally got him swaddled and started to sleep in my arms. Moved him
To the swing and he passed out. I know for sure he was overtired. But he just woke at 30 min again and hasn't made a peep! Does this mean I can no longer use these as UT/OT signs either?!

I really have no idea now where to start with Waketimes. These naps are shorter than any naps he's ever had, even when his Waketimes were way less. I just just don't know what to do anymore