Author Topic: Fighting sleep  (Read 2805 times)

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Offline albers30

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Fighting sleep
« on: June 17, 2016, 21:00:11 pm »
Here is my almost 11 month olds current schedule

Wake 6am
Nap between 930 and 10 (can be anywhere from 30 mins to 1.5 hrs)
Activity
Nap between 130 and 230 depending on when she wakes up from 1st nap (generally 1.5 hours give or take)
Activity
Bedtime between 7 and 8 depending on when she wakes from second nap
She generally wakes around 11 and 230 am still but resettles quickly when I go to her room and pat her.

Routine for naps is bottle, book, bed, Bedtime routine is dinner, bath, quiet play, book, bed.

She has always fought sleep since the day she was born.  I keep hoping it will get better but it doesn't.  I'm just wondering if there is anything I can do to help her go to sleep easier.  1 out of 10 times she probably gets laid in her bed and quietly babbles and drifts off to sleep but most times its several rounds of PUPD or extended periods of pat and shush while she screams and fights to get out of bed til she settles down and allows herself to lie still so she can then babble a bit and go to sleep on her own.  This process is really starting to wear me and my husband down.  The kid hardly ever shows any signs of being tired. I think she would go go go happily like the energizer bunny if we let her and eventually she'd hit a wall and be a mess I'm sure but who knows.  The only time in the day she ever might show signs of being tired and goes to sleep well is the first nap of the day.  I don't think she's ready for just one nap yet because by 930-10 most days she's tired after getting up at 6, or sometimes 545 (this recently started when she started walking a month ago, she had been a 7 am waker, getting her to sleep later would be great too if possible)  and we've tried to stretch out the morning time and do a later morning nap and afternoon cat nap but this was a disaster every time.  Any ideas on helping her not fight sleep so much?  Ideas on the NW or early waking too?

Offline becj86

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2016, 19:51:31 pm »
Hi,

we've tried to stretch out the morning time and do a later morning nap and afternoon cat nap but this was a disaster every time.  Any ideas on helping her not fight sleep so much?  Ideas on the NW or early waking too?
I think she's fighting sleep because she's UT. That NW is in a weird spot - not really related to UT/OT in a nice obvious way, might go if you could reduce day sleep a bit. I'm talking capping one nap at 45min and having a 1.5hr nap. EW is related to too much day sleep too early in the day - if you push that first A time, the EW may go but I suspect you'll have to push it significantly. I suspect she's had a 9:30/10 nap for a while and the morning WU has just become earlier? When you say its been a disaster previously, what happened and when was that?

Have you read through the 2-1 transition page? It's going to be messy however it happens. From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Nap between 930 and 10 (can be anywhere from 30 mins to 1.5 hrs)
Is there a pattern to this? Longer nap after poor night?

Just so I know what your LO's like - when did she get to 2 naps regularly?
Have you got a wind down? How does she behave when you start that?

Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2016, 19:25:52 pm »
Actually, her morning nap had been later like 1030-11ish until the past month or so and thats when she started getting up earlier and napping earlier.  But when it comes to not sleeping she's great at it so we went ahead and transitioned to one nap was easy.  On Saturday we had a family wedding so the schedule was all crazy and without deciding to do so we ended up with just one nap that day 12:30-2 then because of the wedding it was actually 9pm before she got to bed.  She was happy as could be the entire day and went to bed with just a little fighting but not anything like a normal night.  She slept til 8am the next morning stirring only a few times and resettling herself both times.  We stuck with the single nap the next day and she slept from 1230-3 we attempted to put her down at 8 and she fought let her play a little longer tried again at 830 and still a fight but went to sleep.  She was up from 330-4am just restless in bed demanding I be in her room with her.  She got up for the day at 7.  It was a sitter day yesterday as I was at work and she put her down a little after noon and she slept until almost 3 she said.  We tried for bedtime at 8 again but big fight, 830 still a fight but she gave in.  Was up from 12:30 to 130 restless in bed but would sleep somewhat as long as I was in her room with her but if I tried to leave she screamed (this may have something to do with it being a sitter day)  at 130 I finally gave up and brought her to bed with me and she slept until her sisters work her up at 630.  She ended up going down at 1130 today because she was tired from her bad night and early morning and woke at 1 and has been happy ever since.  We'll see how bedtime goes today.  Any thoughts on this sleep pattern and where to go with things to get her sleeping better at night and not fighting bedtime, nap time hasn't been as much of a fight since going to 1 nap but bedtime is still pretty rough.  Love to hear what you think!

Offline becj86

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2016, 19:43:51 pm »
Ok, so is she an independent sleeper?

The shifting BT probably doesn't help. If you can keep it the same, her body will get more used to it and she'll fall asleep more easily then. What's the pre-bed routine/wind down?

It sounds like the issue may be more about wanting you there now, than going to sleep, yk? She may also be a touch OT from the change to one nap - its pretty early and pretty sudden. Not saying to go back to 2 naps, just that she's had a big change, it might take 4-7 days for her to settle in to a new routine before we can say much about any patterns.

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 09:15:38 am »
Hi
I know you are not settled into the routine yet and you had that wedding etc to deal with but perhaps that day off track shows something up, that she likes a long A time to bed?  She did 7hrs before BT.  I wouldn't go so far as 7hrs every day as I think that would be too much tbh but using it to help judge the routine as a whole I'd say you could likely move the nap a bit earlier now to help fit in a good length A time before BT - I know you were moving it later to put a stop to the EW but now she is waking at a better time AND is on one rather than two naps.  Looking at the info a 5hr A to BT was not long enough for her, she fought and might have been UT (or SA) in the night.  So split it and go for 6hr A time to BT??  Just a suggestion
I think I'd be tempted to try
WU 7
nap 11 - 2 (and no later)
BT 8

You might find with the shorter A before the nap she naps less than the 3hrs and may then be able to increase the night length instead (so nap until 1.30 could be a 7.30 BT).  However if you see mornign Wu getting earlier and earlier again then perhaps shift things to 4.5hr A before nap and 6 after
WU 7
nap 11.30 - 1.30/2.00
BT 7.30/8

Seems like you all adapted to one nap super fast I am really jealous!! :)
It just looks a bit late in the day to me.


Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 12:09:20 pm »
I think those are all great suggestions and make sense to me but there's a few factors that have come up that have me a little confused on the real issue is and how to go from here.  So yesterday like I said she went down at 1130 for her nap since she got up at 630 she was getting tired by then.  She only slept til 1.  She then dosed off in the car at 4 on our way somewhere so she slept for about a half hour waking up at 430. She fought her regular bedtime at 730 then and again at 8 but not as much so she went to bed at about 815.  She woke just before midnight and took about 20 minutes to settle then woke again at 150 and after an hour of trying to get her back to sleep I gave up and took her to bed so I could get a little sleep before getting up for work.  She then got up at 630 happy as a clam.  I don't know if the NW is OT or UT or some type of separation anxiety.  As for being an independent sleeper I wouldn't probably say she's achieved that yet.  She still will not go to bed at bedtime unless someone is in the room with her, you don't have to be doing anything for her you just have to be present.  At nights she sometimes will go down fine if you leave the room sometimes requires you stay.  She can soothe herself back to sleep if she wants as I hear her do this frequently on the monitor during naps and nigh time but going to bed initially is still a bit of a challenge for her.  We tried WIWO once and it was a disaster but I'm thinking we need to try it again to get her sleeping independently better.  But part of me feels like I shouldn't do this until I've got her on a reasonable schedule and can feel better about her not being either OT or UT at nap/bedtime.  Thoughts?  Her NW the past 2 nights have seemed more related to this as she is restless but appears to be sleeping in her bed but the minute I try and step out of the room she starts screaming and this just carries on.  As long as I'm in the room she'll settle herself in and appear to be sleeping soundly but the minute I open the door bam she's screaming.  This has been a common thing on sitter days but not generally on days I'm home with her which was yesterday.  Thoughts on where to go from here with these two issues?  I really appreciate all your comments so far.

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 13:32:18 pm »
WRT the independent sleep I would suggest not trying to sneak out of the room. Say clearly "I'm going now so you can sleep properly, call if you need me" and leave the room. The "call if you need me" teaches her that you will return when needed and that you are not disappearing or sneaking away to an unknown place where you may not come back from, even though she is young its a great phrase, I'm pretty sure Tracy used it.  So you can use the phrase when she is awake alongside WIWO if you like and you can say the phrase if she has fallen to sleep. Obviously it is better to leave the room before she sleeps, that's the aim, so that she knows you are gone, is not surprised when she wakes ans you are not there, and so you don't disturb her by opening the door.  On the odd time mine fell asleep when I was in the room or if I transferred him from car to cot for example I'd tell him quite loudly and clearly what I was doing, it went in during his sleep and he knew.  It is not going to suddenly give her independent sleep it's just another tool to use during the process.

LOs going through the transition are bound to have off track days, I am still amazed at how well it's going for you so quickly. Nodding off in the car will likely be common during this phase if you head out when she's sleepy.  Some people avoid using the car/pram in the afternoon so they can get LO through to BT without a CN and do an earlier BT rather than allowing a CN and LO fights BT resulting in it coming late.


Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 03:51:38 am »
I do use a similar phrase with her only she starts screaming at the top of her lungs before I can even get to the door that's why we've been trying gradual withdrawl hence the trying to quietly exit when she's well settled and nearly asleep, this is the only way I've found to keep her from hysteria.  Other ideas on how to go about this are greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately with twin 3 year old sisters theres no avoiding car time going to their different activities and I also work on our family farm often on my days off which is a 40 minute drive one way so also car time that often results in CN and affects schedules.  I do my best to keep things somewhat consistent but there's some variables out of my control.  Not sure what the best way is to make sure I'm helping her transition but not get overly tired thwarting our attempts to help her achieve independent sleep.

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 13:47:44 pm »
we've been trying gradual withdrawl hence the trying to quietly exit when she's well settled and nearly asleep, this is the only way I've found to keep her from hysteria.  Other ideas on how to go about this are greatly appreciated.
Rather than trying to gradually exit which to a LO can feel like you are sneaking off, I suggest your gradual withdrawal is approached in a slightly different way.  you start at the cot and when she calms you walk  immediatly to your safest distance away (this is the place you can stand and she is still confident you are not leaving her) use verbal from that distance.  Then take a step away (not sneaking) and when she kicks off use verbal reassurance again, return to the cot if you need to but at the end of it you go to your one-step-away point (ie safe distance plus 1 step) this becomes your new safe distance because by the end of this night or two she is now comfortable with you reassuring from this distance.  After one or two nights you take the next step away from your safe distance.

Gradual Withdrawal is a way of helping LO learn she can be confident that you walked right out of the room because that becomes the safe distance but you will return right up to the cot if she needs you.  I think it is easier for LO to grasp when they know (but won't like) the additional step is there, they do get used to it where as sneaking away never really prepares them for you exiting the room when they are fully awake.

I wasn't suggesting you avoid all car journeys only saying that some people do and that if you can't then to accept that on that day BT will end up later as a result of a car nap.


Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2016, 21:11:12 pm »
Ok, so not really too far off from what I've been doing.  With Violet I settle her down use our goodnight phrase and step away.  Generally I don't get more then a step away without her screaming, I step back up go through it again and by the 3rd of 4th time I'm able to step away to the door where I generally wait a few minutes to see if she's going to cry or remain settled and quietly exit.  It's a 50/50 shot where she stays in her settled drowsy state and goes off to sleep or starts screaming again and we start all over.  We've been doing that a good 6 weeks now but I don't feel like we're making any progress towards independent sleep other then she is sleeping better at night with fewer wake-ups and less time settling when she does wake.  However, part of this I attribute to her difficulty winding down for sleep especially at bedtime.  She gets a bath, quiet playtime, book, song and bed but its generally another 30 minutes of her fussing around/playing around in bed, which she generally requires our presence for or she screams her head off, before she settles down enough we can go thru the routine to actually go to sleep.  Her naps have been a little all over the place in when she goes down and for how long partly because of events going on, partly because of a sitter who can't follow directions, and partly because of a husband who is convinced the problem is over tiredness  and won't fully get on board with the one nap schedule we were trying to go to and frankly I think its under tiredness based on her sleep patterns since birth but maybe its always been over tiredness.  She's been so much more difficult in figure out her sleep needs/patterns then my twins but I think its because she's such an easy going, going with the flow, happy baby maybe I'm missing some subtle cues and trying to hard to make her schedule fit ours instead of vice versa.  Getting frustrated with it all though.  Other thoughts?

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 08:52:18 am »
I'm able to step away to the door where I generally wait a few minutes to see if she's going to cry or remain settled and quietly exit.
This is where she and you are stuck, with you at the door.
I suggest your usual routine but you step *out* of the room, yes she will call back because she is stuck at a place where she feels safe with you in the room, so go back, then *out* of the room again. Do this for a few days only.  Then you need to take the next step which is either (I don't know if you shut her door for her to sleep or not)
- out of the room and shut the door (if you do this you still return on call backs then out and shut the door again)
or
- out of the room and down the stairs (straight to this if the door is left open - she needs to know you have gone and she needs to know you still come back)
Admittedly the second one there does mean you get some leg exercise up and down the stairs, the thing is if you continue at the door in the room or move it on to outside the door with the door open she can still get 'stuck' at that step and be waiting to hear you stay/leave which means when you leave she still has 50:50 chance of being disturbed by it.

Alternatively if she is calling back but not screaming or crying you can stay outside the door (with it shut) and say your key phrase from outside the room. It may be helpful to use this in conjunction with stepping to the door, out the door and shutting the door (and even from half way down the stairs if you decide to stop their!). It reinforces the key phrase and reassures her that you are still watching out for her and keeping her safe even though you are not in the room.  Obviously if she really needs to yout go back in you do.

WRT BT WD, some LOs at this age become too stimulated by a bath I think Tracy suggested moving bath to another time of day if this was the case.  Maybe give it a go?  Also books may well be too stimulating at that time, I know many people like to get BT reading secured in the routine but if you read at other times of the day there is no requirement for it to be at BT. I did not do BT reading with mine until he turned 5yo (and he started reading at 2yo, fluent reading at 3yo).
It might also help to look at her day sleep routine to see why BT is taking such a long time to settle.
Your husband may be right that she is OT, LOs moving to 1 nap often do become OT it's quite normal and you can't necessarily avoid all of it.  Sometimes when LOs need to move to 1 nap OT can be caused by not being fully on one nap, the lack of consistency of having sometimes 1 and sometimes 2 naps means they cannot get settled on the routine and start to sleep better at night.  Some people find they can do 1 nap and 2 nap days and mix it around, some people find they have to go all to 1 nap to enable LO to regulate their sleep and sleep better.

hope this helps


Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 20:42:36 pm »
I've tried the walk in walk out thing a few times and it just her so worked up bedtime was a nightmare but we'll give it another go and see. 

With regard to the OT here's where I really struggle.  It doesn't matter if she takes two naps or one bedtime is a struggle.  There's only been a hand full of times naps and bedtime are not a struggle and that's generally when she's had a long stretch of awake time and makes it clear she's ready to sleep.  Most the time though even when she's showing the perfect cues that she's getting tired its still a struggle.  It makes it really hard because I just don't know what direction to go with naps and the fact I have a babysitter that won't follow any direction given to her regarding nap times doesn't help the matter.  The bath is generally an hour before bedtime so I don't think that's it.  Bedtime/naptime is about the only time she gets reading time since her sisters don't really like to share their book time with her during the day and its hard to read books anyway when you've got 3 kiddos all wanting different things at different times and read in different ways different books.  We can try getting rid of this but I don't think that's keeping her worked up.  Its just so hard for me to say she's OT when she's happily and contently playing at bedtime and nap time.  It makes it so hard to work out the other sleep kinks when you can't figure out if you've got the right sleep times or not.

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 08:21:10 am »
There's only been a hand full of times naps and bedtime are not a struggle and that's generally when she's had a long stretch of awake time and makes it clear she's ready to sleep.
Then perhaps this is the thing to look at. A long A time. Some LOs do need very long A times and for some it is the morning A time and for some it is the afternoon A time.


Offline albers30

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2016, 19:27:06 pm »
So I just wanted to give an update of where we are at with things now and get some outside input on whether we should stay the course or if maybe its not the best thing for her right now and we need to make some tweaks.  For the past week her schedule has been roughly this

Wake somewhere between 630 and 730 (the earlier wake ups are generally because her sisters are up and noisy 7-730 is more usual)
Activity
Nap somewhere between 11 and 12 (most days around 1130 and anywhere from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours, a few times she's woken up at between 1 and 1 1/2 hrs grumpy but went back to sleep with a little soothing)
Activity
Bedtime between 7 and 8ish depending on when she got up from her nap, generally shot for about a 6 hr activity time
She's been having a wake up a couple hours after going down, easily resettled generally, and then another wake up around 345 in the morning.  This one she's a little slower to resettle or I give in because I'm tired and throw her in bed with us and she immediately zones out so I'm assuming that might be a habit thats causing that wake up.  Generally she's happy and active all the time we're not really having any fussiness or meltdowns until we try to put her to sleep and its still a little battle but most times are not nearly the fight it was to get her to sleep but she still fights us.

THoughts?

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Re: Fighting sleep
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2016, 07:45:27 am »
Sorry for not replying sooner - I have a terribly bad back at the moment and can't sit at the computer or focus on my head on sleep issues :(
Hopefully some extra eyes will come this way soon for you.
I'll check back when I can x