Help with the 2-1 transition

[Tabathagucci]

I could use some help still unfortunately!  I'm still getting early wakings (before 6 am) and short nights (10 hours, maybe a little more). How can I tell if it's a need to push the first nap more or if I'm putting her to bed too late? Guessing it will be a little bit of trial and error but maybe you can suggest what to try? This was yesterday:
Woke 5:45
S 10:45-1:05
S 3:20-3:45
Bed time 7:15 asleep at 7:45
Slept 10 hours, awake at 5:45

While this is a definite improvement over the last weeks of early wakings, I'd love a wake up between 6 and 6:30 and a slightly longer night!

[creations]

There's a chance at this point that you might need to just put up with the shorter night fora  little while. Once that CN is dropped you will likely get a longer night again. I realise it is tiring to have the later BT and the earlier Wu but if she still needs 2 naps this might be the most comfortable way to get through a few more weeks until she is a bit older and can handle the transition a bit better.
You can try to change it - of course you can - only with a good first nap, a reasonable CN and a relatively steady 10hr night I'm not sure I'd personally want to risk upsetting the routine just yet.
Totally your choice.
If the times in your last EASY are relatively stable you could shift the whole day one by 15 mins, wait a couple of days and shift it all again. Then you ought to get a WU after 6am.  In theory.
Another option is to cap the second nap a bit shorter again.  Is that A time before BT getting a bit long though?  You could put her down for that second nap 10 min later (might be an easier PD) and cap it at 3.45 still.  Maybe make the last A a touch shorter??

What do you think - LOs are all so different but I'm trying to think along the lines of the preference being for a longer first A and shorter for the others.

[Tabathagucci]

Well I'm trying my hardest to stay on 2 naps, but what works one day doesn't work the next. Is that typical for this transition?  I'm going crazy with all the ups and downs.  One day a certain A time will work, the next it won't.  One day a certain naptime will work the next it won't. She resisted her first nap yesterday and went down late and did fine,  but because it was such a late nap, we did one nap and still got a short night.  I occasionally get an 11+ hour night but most are 10-10.5, even with two short naps, a long nap and a short nap, or one long nap...

[creations]

what works one day doesn't work the next. Is that typical for this transition?

Yes I'm afraid so. Some people get an easier time of it than others of course but yes it is a difficult transition. The 2-1 was the hardest for me I am sure.

If she is napping, one long one short or two short or just one long nap...I wouldn't worry too much about the shorter night for now.  The night length doesn't seem to lengthen until LO has finished the transition and settled down on one nap. Even if you move directly to one nap per day the nights are likely to stay short for a while and gradually lengthen with possibly some random longer catch up nights thrown in.
I know the earlier waking and shorter nights are a pain though.

You can of course just move directly to one nap and ride it out.  She will get used to it over a period of time and you might feel things are easier by just having a set nap time, one nap, and a set BT.  What do you think?

ETA: I'm going to move you over to Toddler Sleep as I think your LO is now 12 months - hope that's right

[Tabathagucci]

Ok thank you!  That's good to know, and I'll try to keep hope that things will get better.  Ever since we sleep trained at 5 months she's been a mostly great sleeper, very independent, etc. Never too picky about bed time, always making up short nap days at night.  She dropped naps super easy and fast. 
It's been messy for 2 months now and now that she's in her leap it's even worse!
I will ride it out though.  Thank you so much!   And yes, she's 1 now! 😊

I may skip to one nap but we'll see!

[Tabathagucci]

Any suggestions for figuring out how to get a second nap?  If we make it to 12 pm for the first nap, I can put her to bed st 5:45 and she seems to do pretty well.  However, today she only slept till 11:49 for her first nap.  I put her down for second nap at 3h55m A time (this worked last Saturday so thought I'd try it again) and she is fighting her nap again.  I don't want to put her down earlier than 5:45, even that seems to be waaay too early.  How the heck do I figure out how to get a second nap?  I was nursing her to sleep for the second nap, but then she seemed to want to be nursed for first nap too, so I stopped that. She doesn't respond well to being rocked or walked around.

[creations]

It's a real pain when they refuse a second nap isn't it. I think really all you can do is either try again later, a short CN and cap it then give a late BT if she refuses BT too.  Or just go with your EBT, expect the worst and hope for the best, I always felt better if I expected OT NWs in the early part of the night and kind of resigned myself to a bad night, often the reality was better than my expectation.
Such a tricky transition period this.
hugs

[Tabathagucci]

Hi there!  Just checking in...we've found an ok rythym with second nap now.  First nap is at 11:15 am.  Second nap is roughly 4 hrs later depending on how long first nap is.  Longer nap = longer A time needed.  It's still a bit of a guessing game but I've been getting second napsnalmost every day now.  Just keeping them short for a manageable bed time.  Bed time has been around 7/7:30 and wake up is still all over the place but we've been sick and have more teeth, so to be expected.
My question is, how long do I keep pushing nap later?  She usually sleeps 1h10m - 1h30m, so assume I can keep pushing gradually?  Yesterday she slept over 2 hours till 1:20 so I didn't bother with a third nap and tried for an EBT but she wouldn't go down till 7:20, which is 6 hours.  Not sure if she was OT or UT.  She looked tires but that doesn't always mean anything with her.  Anyway, do I keep pushing nap later? How do I know when to stop? 
thank you!

[creations]

Sorry I'm a bit confused

slept over 2 hours till 1:20 so I didn't bother with a third nap and tried for an EBT

you mean she refused second nap? not third, there is not third is there?

So she is usually doing 2 naps, usually accepts the second nap and usually you cap it to maintain BT - great.
If she sleeps longer for nap 1 (the 2hr you mention) I think I would still go for the second nap but keep it short, just to maintain consistency in the day for as long as it can remain consistent. Some people keep that second nap and cap it shorter and shorter until it's just 10 mins even.  And it sounds like she will accept the second nap more readily than she will accept EBT.  Unless I've misunderstood you.

If at any point she consistently refuses the second nap that's a time when you ned to push that first nap later even if she seems tired and ready for it, so that you don't have lots of days adding up with super long second A times.  Better to have them a bit more even.

If I haven't answered what you were asking let me know!

[Tabathagucci]

Oh goodness!  Yes, second nap, no third, sorry!  So I'm already at the point of capping the second nap depending on how late the nap is, anywhere from 15-30 mins.  The minimum A time she seems to need after a good first nap is 4 hours.  So if she sleeps till 1:45 like she did yesterday, the second nap would be at 5:45.  Would that be too late for a nap?
She usually accepts EBT, but I think I've figured out that she needs to be in bed by 6:30 if we're doing EBT.  When I put her down at 6:45 she was already OT.
Anyway, the second nap was one question.
The other was when can I stop pushing the am nap later for a bit?  I got it to 11:15.  Today she slept later so o pushed it to 11:30 and she slept 1h20m.  Can I keep it there for a bit as long as the morning wake up isn't too early?
Thank you!!

[creations]

So if she sleeps till 1:45 like she did yesterday, the second nap would be at 5:45.  Would that be too late for a nap?

For some it would be too late, for some it would be fine. I would think if she is generally refusing EBT than you generally need to try for the micro-nap of 10 mins or so.  If this causes her to refuse BT at the regular time you can move BT a bit later however if it causes it to push BT to a silly-late time then I would drop the micro-nap.  It's more about what happens over an extended period rather than each day. Hope that makes sense.  In terms of how late BT can be moved, well for me personally I wouldn't go later than 8pm.
You might be able to do CN 5.45 - 6 and 8pm BT for example as it is only a 10-15 min nap, if she doesn't constantly refuse BT.
I hope this makes sense.

The other was when can I stop pushing the am nap later for a bit?  I got it to 11:15.  Today she slept later so o pushed it to 11:30 and she slept 1h20m.  Can I keep it there for a bit as long as the morning wake up isn't too early?

Yes I'd stop there. Try to maintain a balance so that there is no nap refusal due to UT, so that the nap is long enough to be restorative (or the best you can get) and so that WU time doesn't start getting earlier.  This way you can continue the little CN later on and maintain a reasonable BT.

As soon as there is consistency with EW or nap refusal then you'll probably need to go to one nap and at a slightly later time to balance the day.

I'm aware I am not being very clear with my thoughts at the moment, I have some pain bothering me which is making it harder to explain myself. Sorry about that.  Hope this helps some though x

[Tabathagucci]

Yes that all makes sense, thank you! Hope you feel better!

[Tabathagucci]

Curious as to why she would refuse EBT?  Today she woke at 6 am, napped from 11:10-12:30, refused a nap at 4:30 and at 5.  Put her down at 6:15 and she went ballistic.  She's gone from 12-6 before and gone down easy and slept well so wondering why she is all of a sudden refusing EBT.  I'm sure she's OT and she is teething so maybe it's just that?

[creations]

Try not to read too much into it when it is only one day.  Yes, it could be some OT and/or teething, or she is just used to her BT and doesn't like it to change.

[Tabathagucci]

So she fussed at BT last night but ended up falling asleep at 6:25, slept till 6:05 am.  Awesome!
Today she napped from 11:15-11:05, also awesome but refuses second nap again.  If I put her down at the same time I did last night, that makes her total A time for the day 10.5 hours.  Before when we didn't have enough awake time during the day she seemed to have these weird awake periods at 4 am where she'd need to be awake for 2 hours.  I know I won't get an answer before I put her down, but curious to know what you would recommend in these circumstances. Do I put her down at same EBT or push it a few minutes or?

Thanks again!