Baby cries as soon as being swaddled

[leesa001]

Hi have a very consistent bedtime routine with baby.  First change diaper, clothes door, close curtains, turning on sound machine.  Then lay him on the bed to swaddle.   This is when he begins to cry. I try to soothe him and smile and tell him it's OK it's time to sleep.  Give him kisses, and out him over my shoulder and begin to sing hum to him while patting his back.    He will come interested to cry throughout the entire SIT part of the 4s.   Most often he is kicking and continues to cry,  I feel like I am irritating him more by holding him so I lay him down where now he is crying harder so I shush pat him to sleep.

I read stories of people putting their babes drowsy but awake but I can never reach that with my baby.  What am I doing wrong?
I try to make sure he is not over stimulated before nap  or make sure I catch him before he gets overtired.   
Is my routine too Long?   Should I start my routine 20min before NAP?

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry you didn't have any replies yet.

I see from your other post on Night Waking that your LO is 3.5 months old now.  As you are in the process of weaning a feed to sleep prop this sounds relatively normal that he will cry when being put down for sleep and fuss because you are changing the routine he is used to. It will take a little while for him to learn to fall to sleep without feeding to sleep.  The 4s routine will not automatically or immediately send your LO to sleep, rather it is a process of teaching LO that it is okay to fall to sleep without needing to feed as a prop before hand.

There are a couple of other things which might be having an impact on his fussiness when you begin the wind down and swaddle him.
- if his nap routine and A times are not suitable for his age he might be UT (under tired) and trying to let you know he is not yet ready for a nap
- the 4 month age (you are approaching and it can be early for some) is a time when A times increase quite quickly and many LO go through a "4 month regression" with their sleep which can take several weeks to work through.  Having a suitable routine and increasing A times appropriately and in good time can help but not always, sometimes you just have to roll with the regression and wait it out
- he might not like a long wind down time. My own DS liked no longer than say 3-5 mins which included nappy change a very quick song and into bed.  If I tired to WD for longer than this he would fuss and scream, he was trying to tell me to just get him into his bed.  When mine was a new born I could time how long it took him to nod off, the exact 20 mins Tracy said in the BW books, he went through each stage exactly as described.  But at 3.5 months he began his 4 month regression and I tried to introduce the 4s sitting aspect of WD only to discover this drove him mad.  He wanted to be up and active for his entire A time without any quiet time, and then a super fast WD and into bed.  It was a slightly different scenario as mine was already an independent sleeper.

If you would like to post your EAS times we can have a look at your overall routine. Add a note to show where WD started, what LO did, and what time LO fell to sleep and woke.  I might be a case of increasing A a bit and reducing the WD time - but it is hard to tell without seeing your routine.
hope this helps

[jessmum46]

Some great advice there   And just to say I agree entirely about some babies not wanting a long winddown - both of mine were much better with that very quick into bedroom, lights off, quick song and into bed routine.  I also put them down fully awake from the beginning, not 'drowsy but awake' - it may be you will have more success that way?

[leesa001]

Thank you for your reply.
Currently I have been working on increasing his A time to 1h30m because I had him on a newborn easy with an A time of 1h10m

He has been doing pretty well with the extended a times but sleep is still a wreck. 
His easy is  every 3 hours with 1h30 a.   But here is an example of a typical dqy
Eat and wake 7
A 1h20 - 1h30 min  (depending on how long he fusses to sleep)    I will bring lo into his room around 8.10 to change diaper, swaddle, walk into my bedroom,  draw curtains, turning on sound machine,  and sing song upright in arms while patting.   He normally begins kicking and squirming,    I say it's OK time for sleep now,  trying to get him calm, but it escalates so I lay him down. Shush pat until he has completely fallen asleep.  So maybe 10 minutes wd, and 10 minutes of patting
S 820 or 830 -9  will wake up. I have to be in the room and have my hand on him to try to get him to fall back asleep.  Or shush pat.   It will either work and he will sleep for another 30-45 MIN, sometimes on and off for 10 minutes at a time, or we will be shushing for 30 more minutes at which case I will get him out if he is still crying ,  and do some quiet activity until the next E time.  Now my whole routine is off. 
E 10 
A  if he has had a good nap it will be 1h30m  otherwise I put him down earlier for bed based on the time he woke up from his nap or watch his cues.
S 11.30.    Or if he only slept for 30 minutes for his first nap it could be at 1030 or 11.     Same as above  I will have to shush pat him until he is fully asleep.   He will wake at 30-45 min,  shush patting him back to sleep.
E 1
A
S 2.30 same as above depends on how his first 2 naps were
E 4
A
S 530  same as above
Bath 630
640  pj's,  swaddle,  say goodnight walkthrough house, draw curtains,turn on sound machine
E 7
Bed sleep 730 or 8  depends on how long he nurses for.  And my toddler sometimes wakes him as well despite the sound machine.
E  will wake up around 10- 1030
E will wake up around 230 to 330 will nurse only for 3 or 4 minutes and falls asleep very quickly!   Sometimes I cannot rouse him from sleep and put him back to bed
Wil  wake around 530.  I will normally give a pacifier,  and pat him,  if he is still really fussy I will nurse him,  but again the little bugger is quick to fall asleep on the breast!
Wake up at 7

Since I've stopped nursing to sleep i have only been able to shush pat to sleep. 

[jessmum46]

I wonder if perhaps a little push in A time, say to 1h40 might help?  He might fight less initially which may then make it easier for you to start weaning off the shh pat - gradually patting for less time until he does more of the settling on his own.  What do you think?  Honestly overall though I appreciate it is super hard work with so many naps in the day, I actually think you are doing really well for this age!

[leesa001]

Thank you!  That's really encouraging .  I have the baby blues  and it's been hard.  My dd was also a bad sleeper, but I didn't start her on the bw until she was 4.5 months well into her sleep regression.    I wish someone would have warned me about that!.
I started my ds from day 1 but he was such a sleepy eater,  I spent most of thE A time just trying to keep him awake long enough to feed.  Which is why I had a problem with the nursing to sleep habit. 
I want to gradually lengthen his A time over the next 2 weeks.

Yesterday he wouldn't extend his first nap,  and he didn't fall asleep until 2hrs later.  He must have been pretty exhausted because I had to wake him for his next feed!

I wonder though why he is waking at 30 minutes and not at the 45 min like he used to.  Coukd his sleep cycle have switched from 45 to 30m? Do you think it's habitual?  Maybe I should wake to sleep?

[creations]

I wonder though why he is waking at 30 minutes and not at the 45 min like he used to.

I see this sometimes with LOs who are under tired for the nap. They are encouraged to nod off but then wake after a very short nap, not even the full sleep cycle. I wouldn't look too much into it tbh.
As katherine has said a longer A time would likely help.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
between now and the next couple of weeks the A time might increase to 2hrs and for some it can be earlier (if low sleep needs or just like a longer A time), and you've already seen a surprisingly long nap after a 2hr A time so he can likely handle the 1hr 40.

Sorry to hear you've been finding it hard.

[jessmum46]

((Hugs)), the baby blues are tough How are you doing for support for you? Be gentle with yourself

[leesa001]

Thank you  sorry for the late reply.   
I have tried to extend to 1h40m now,  the last 2bdays were good, but overnight he decided that 4am was a good time to wake and was not having any of the shush pat!   Last night it took me 3 hours to get him to fall asleep.  Again the shush pat was not working.   I checked to see if he was hungry and gave him a bottle instead of nursing, but he wasn't interested and just inconsolable.   It seems he is right in the middle of a wonderweek  so perhaps that is it.    Everytime I would try to lay him down he would start screaming.   
And he knows now that if he screams hard enough that I will pick him up!  When he calms and I try to lay him down again screaming.   I'm trying to hold off on the pupd As suggested due to his age, but he's crying either way.
I try to be reassuring and see if he will settle on his own but he just will not.   Finally I had to give him a pacifier and held him in my arms until he was almost asleep and lay him down. 



How did you get your babies to sleep independently without crying?  Did you let him cry for a bit a walk back in , give reassuring words and then walk out to see if they will settle themselves?

I feel clueless with this baby

[creations]

I know recently you weaned a feed to sleep prop - do you feel you are over this now or it is still an issue?  I see you eventually used a paci when he was up that long NW and wouldn't settle - are you trying to wean the paci too or already weaned but resorted to it in desperation after such a hard night?

These NWs might be prop related if you are still weaning them.  Otherwise though I'd be thinking pain/discomfort maybe from gas, reflux or teething, or an illness coming, or possibly SA related to a developmental leap.

And he knows now that if he screams hard enough that I will pick him up! 

This is exactly what he should know - that when he really needs you, you will be there, every time he needs you.  It will actually reduce his need for you in the long run as he will be confident to go to sleep on his own and only call out when he needs attention.

I'm trying to hold off on the pupd As suggested due to his age, but he's crying either way.

The BW sleep training methods are not no-cry methods. Baby is going to cry, he is going to be frustrated that things have changed if you've recently weaned a prop, and he is going to cry from tiredness and the inability to get himself to sleep whilst he still need support and is relying on you. It is a gradual process to teach him that he can self sooth.  Shush/pat is not a magic fix which stops babies crying, it is a method of supporting your baby so they know you are there with them, they can hear and feel your touch and know they are not alone.
Please be aware that PUPD does not mix with paci use or other props so even with LO being too young for us to suggest PUPD as a training method we would also need to advise all props are dropped if PUPD is used.  It is of course okay and part of the shush/pat method to pick your baby up when needed and continue to shush/pat in arms until calm, then lay him down and continue shush/pat in the cot.

Did you let him cry for a bit a walk back in ,

BW methods do not involve leaving baby to cry alone. We do not advocate leaving a LO to cry alone with any sort of timed return. If he needs you go to him, if he doesn't leave him.
A mantra-cry is the only sort of "cry" where we would say you can leave LO. It is not really a cry IMO, there are no tears and it is not a full on "I need you" cry although can escalate or change to this if LO encounters further problem self settling or it goes on for too long and LO gets frustrated.  A mantra is more of a self soothing hum, a repetitive noise which helps LO to relax.

How did you get your babies to sleep independently without crying?

Oh mine did cry - all babies cry it is their only way of communicating with you.  Mine was very slowly sleep trained from day 1. A slow gradual process where I picked up every time he needed me and soothed him using an adapted shush/pat and put down again (initially putting down asleep, then when eyes were nodding)...but he was just a few weeks old.  Even as a fully independent sleeper he has still need my help and attention - and has still cried to get my attention - many many times, of course he has. And every time he has cried I have gone directly to him to see what the problem is and how I can help.

If the crying bothers you, if you are finding it very emotional and sad I suggest some ear plugs or headphones with calm music playing for you - you can still hear LO as you are in the room right there with him but it will take the edge off the sound for you. In the early days with mine I really felt his emotion, I joined him in his sadness, almost, and over time I realised I do not need to do this, I can emotionally distance myself a little.  As long as I am there supporting him I do not also need to be sad.

[leesa001]

The nursing to sleep has nearly ended except at NW.  I find it difficult because he will wake and he will only nurse for a few minutes and fall asleep quickly.  I try to waje him before putting him down but he doesn't stir.
Some NW if I find its been too soon I will say it's time to sleep turn him on his side and shush pat.  I first have to reswaddle him because he is a little houdini ,  if he catches sight of me he smiles and is alert.  At this point the shush pat only makes him cry harder because he wants to be up.

What do you do in this instance?  I don't want to remove him from the cot and create and habit of waking in the night to play.  Do I continue to shush pat.  If it goes on for more than an hour I assume he's gotten hungry from all the crying and nurse him.  But at this point I feel he has won, and got exactly what he wanted.   

My husband says he doesn't cry for you he screams at you !

The pacifier is a prop I use as a last resort and only at night.  He has never really likes the pacifier anyway.  Most often he pushes it out and wants nothing  of it  he only wants the breast.   For this reason I discontinued giving it to him because it never really calmed him. 
 
Sometimes I find that my son doesn't want to be patted,  he will twist away from me in his cot.

His crying more so bothers me when I've given everything and he is still crying, that my presence should be soothing him but instead it irritates him  more,
So even if I am holding him he is still screaming when he should be calming.   

[leesa001]

I should add that he mostly behaves this way at Night. D during the day he is quite pleasant most times.   And since I've extended his A time to now 1h45m  he will fall asleep relatively quickly  .  I still have to shush pat but not nearly as long.  And these last 2 days  he has slept through the sleep cycle for some of his naps. 

Thank you for being so nice and answering all my questions .


I really hope this is an early sleep regression,  because I just can't see him getting worse .

My dd1 was really iquick at adapting to the bw method and I started her at 4.5 months.   With my ds2 he had fought me since birth. 

[creations]

The NWs sound difficult but do try to remind yourself that your LO is very young, he has not yet learned to sleep fully independently, his routine might not be quite right yet, and things may be bothering him which he is going to cry about.  It is not a matter of winning or losing with babies, only a matter of responding when you are needed.

If it goes on for more than an hour I assume he's gotten hungry from all the crying and nurse him.  But at this point I feel he has won, and got exactly what he wanted.   

Long NWs are exhausting - we've all been there I'm sure - they really do take their toll on us. I urge you not to think of feeding him as him "winning" though.  If he's been awake for an hour you are quite right that he has likely burnt up some additional calories and might need a feed earlier than usual, so you are doing the right thing by going ahead and feeding him but maybe you can see this as a matter of you caring for him and seeing to his need rather than a "win" for him?
I realise there might be some question over whether he is using nursing as a prop for sleep which you are trying to wean but babies this age do also need a couple of night feeds and the feeding can become efficient enough for it to be pretty quick too. Growth Spurts will also lead to more NFs for a short while - all very confusing when you want to wean a prop, I know.

It's great news that he is settling more quickly for naps now and marvellous to hear he is transitioning and napping longer too!! This could well help to improve the night sleep as he gets better day sleep.  if you look back at your first post and remember how frustrating it was to put him down for a nap with all that crying, you will see it is only 7 days and you are now observing shorter PD time, less patting and longer naps - this is a huge step and one which I hope you can take courage from.
Things will get better - when they are bad remind yourself that babies DO cry, be there for him, try not to see it as him "winning" but rather you being a lovely caring Mummy (which you are!), and remind yourself that other areas have been bad and have improved.

hugs

[jessmum46]

You sound like you are doing really well In terms of feeding at night, how often are you doing so/what would be a typical night right now? He's still very little so personally my inclination would be to feed unless you've clearly *just* done so as 2-3 night feeds (with him falling asleep) is well within normal for this stage. It is super-exhausting, but one so small will need Mummy at night - we used to say my DS was lonely if we couldn't work out what else the issue was!  I assume there's nothing obvious that could be causing him discomfort and making him wake?

[leesa001]

Well the NW seem to have regressed quite a bit actually.  Here is what yesterday looked like:
W 7  (ate for 15m
A 1h45m
S 845- 1005 ( 1h20m)
E (12m)
A (1h55m  took longer to settle)
S 1205-115/ 125- 220 (slept for 1h20m  awake for 10 m while i tried shushed pat to sleep then slept for another hour.  My mistake as I was napping with him and didn't wake him up I time)
E 15min
A 1h45
S 405-440   (35m.  Would not sleep longer.  Tried shush pat, tried take out of  rib for 15 minutes and put back to sleep what wasn't going back, and only crying harder. So I fed him early at 5
E 18m
Gave him an early bath
E 635-640 (5m  fell asleep on breast very Quickly woke up and shush pat him to sleep didn't fall asleep until 705
S  705-745  (40m) tried to shush pat , but he only had 5 minutes of nursing the previous session so fed him again
E 755-8 (4m  fell asleep on breast again  woke him up to shush pat for 15m)
S 815-1055 (2h45m)
E 1053-11  shush pat back to sleep
S 1120-1220   was up out of swaddle sucking on and playing with hands fingers I believe he only slept 40 minutes and I woke when he first cried out because his swaddle was completely undone.
Reswaddle
E 1220- 1230   then woke him because he fell asleep and shush pat him until 1245
S 1245 -315 (2h30m)
E 320 330  fell asleep twice during feeding so really he only ate maybe 5 minutes shush pat to sleep until 345
S 345-445  (1hr)
E 458  for 5m and wouldn't fall back asleep  triedshush patting, please. P.u  finally fed him again
E 620-625
S 625-705 (40m)

Bedfore I would give the pacifier to stretch these wakings and feedings out, but now I find I'm up more at night shush patting and trying to make sure he goes through all the stages of sleep only to wake up 10 to 15 minutes later.

I don't feel he was all that hungry because he wasn't taking full feeds and falling asleep. I tjink that's all he wanted was the breast.
He still has a sleep association I think, because when shush ing over the shoulder he will sucking on my shoulder.
Everytime he has woken up I can hear him working on getting his hands free from the Swaddle,  and then after a 5 minutes of that he slowly he cries out for me,  not a real cry but just a mom im awake cry.  I don't go to him until it's s full real cry. 

He's not teething.   No illness .   I think that it's the sleep transitions still