trying to transition my almost 5 month old

[Twosweetgirls]

Hello! So I have an almost 5 month old and we actually started off with easy but when my other daughter got quite sick (she's fine now) I had to do whatever I could to get through it all.  Anyways, for the last two months it has been getting more and more difficult to get her to follow our schedule and i'm just adapting every day.  I know she probably has sleep props and i'm not exactly sure where to start. She used to have long naps but this last week she's been doing 30 minute naps.  I have two other girls and I don't have the ability to stay in with her to shush her back to sleep for a long long time.  I was reading on this site and I know I should be switching her to a new schedule with a longer awake time but I'm at a loss how to switch over since we have no schedule these days. Also, my question is, when I keep her up how long of an awake time should I start with, what should I do if she only naps 30 minutes; how should I adapt.  Here is where I would love to end up schedule wise, but I need to be flexible with it because of my other daughters schedules.  Let me know what you think and how I can get to this schedule. (right now she doesn't sleep 12 hours, usually 11 per night although with lots of wake ups at this point.  If a similar schedule were to have a shorter night that would probably make sense.  )

7:00 awake and eat (all people)
830  go to preschool drop off (all)
930-1100 L nap
1100 L eats
1110 Go to preschool for E (all)
1200 Lunch (all)
1230-2  N naps (quiet time for the rest of us)
1:30-3  L nap
300 L eats
500-545 L Catnap
530 the rest of us eat
6:30 Lily Eats and then bed time routine
700 Lily Bed
7-730 E and N in bed


Please and thank you for your help!

[Twosweetgirls]

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[creations]

Hi there
Sorry to see you didn't get any replies yet.

TBH I'm not sure your suggested routine is the most appropriate. I understand that you need to fit LOs routine around the school run and meal times and BTs for all the children, and perhaps you do just need the youngest to "fit in" and perhaps she could adapt to this routine...but...I'll say where I think it doesn't quite work and then see what you think.  Perhaps we can come up with something together?
- Your LO is not yet 5 months. It will take a little while to get onto a suitable routine so I can see that aiming for a guidance A time of a 5 month old rather than a 4 month old would be a wise move, however 2hr 30 at this age is very long, most LOs will not handle this well.  Perhaps you know your LO likes super long A times (it's not unheard of)?  Is that the case?  If not I would begin with a more common time, say 2hrs.
- The last A time is significantly shorter in your suggested routine, at only 1hr 15min.  Whilst that A time following a CN is often needed to be a bit shorter I am not convinced a LO on a 2hr 30 A time will agree to BT after only 1hr 15min.  I'd suggest just having another think about this and seeing if the A times can be a little more balanced.
- if she usually sleeps 11hr nights I would personally not expect a 12hr night. Many LOs just don't do 12hrs over night and in my experience with my own DS and on the boards it is more successful (less time consuming and less stressful) to work out a suitable routine whereby LO isn't required to sleep 12hrs if they have only ever slept 11hr.  Better to have the slightly longer day with good naps and the predictability of the routine rather than always fighting for an extra hour at night.
You could try splitting it - hope for an 11.5hr night?  Then if it turns out you don't get the 11.5hr you increase A times by 10 mins to take up that additional time in the day?
You might for instance look at a routine something like this:
WU 7
A 2
S 9 - 10.30
A 2
S 12.30 - 2.00
A 2
S 4.00 - 5.30
A 2
BT 7.30

Usually on the forums we start with where you are at now - Tracy suggested the first few days should be spent observing, writing down the times LO eats and sleeps.  This is helpful for us here as we can often get an idea of the overall day and see what it happening and what might need to change.
Would you like to post her actual EAS times for yesterday/today perhaps?
It might also help if you list what props you have and when you use them - we could help you decide what/when/how to drop them.

Let me know what you think and how you'd  like to go forwards.

[Twosweetgirls]

Thanks for replying. My daughter just turned 5 months since we talked and I think your right, the 2.5 hours is too long. I've been trying out a two hour active time  the last few days. I can't really tell you what I was doing with certainty because she was doing car naps here or there and everyday is different.  I noticed that she wasn't sleeping well and she went from being a great sleeper 0-3 months and getting worse and worse. Now she sleeps for 30-45 minutes and wakes up. Night time is 1-2 hours and then a wake up. So I'm trying to just put her into the 4 hour schedule and keep putting her back to sleep after her 30 min naps. Here's what I think I will try.

730 wake up and feed
930-1100 nap
1100 feed
100-230 nap
300 feed
430-6 nap
6 feed
830 bedtime

I had to stretch or change some times for driving and such but does this look doable? What would I see if she's getting overtired? She's a pretty easy going baby and text book usually. Thanks!!

[creations]

does this look doable?

In terms of A time and S times, if this was your routine it would be lovely.  In terms of doable, possible, hmm..don't know about your LO but mine would not just move his morning Wu time by half an hour if I wanted him to move his routine, it would be a huge struggle, in fact I struggled for a long time with early mornings and being unable to move him to a reasonable WU time and that was with a pretty good routine and independent sleeper. If you feel you can get that Wu time to 7.30 and start your day there - great.
If not you might need to re-think or put in some hard work to get it there.

I would put that 6pm feed later, just before BT.  If necessary put in a cluster/top up feed so one after the nap and another before BT.

What would I see if she's getting overtired?

Grouchy, crying when waking, often sudden wake ups from the nap at 10 or 20 mins.
Honestly though if you can cope with it, the fastest way to get onto a new routine is to stick to the times and eventually your LO will sleep.  The OT helps to set the new routine up so although we generally avoid OT in our day to day routines, when implementing a new routine it can work in your favour.

[Twosweetgirls]

Ok great that helps! Right now her wake up is close to 730, but that depends when her sister bursts into the room. I can make that work. Today was 720. And I think she is a  overtired but I think I'll just work with the schedule. We are just finishing being sick so I'll wait another day or so to really start the schedule but this really helps. She is waking up from naps still dozy after I've helped her sleep 1.5.hours.  Is that ok?

[creations]

Ah sounds good. If she is waking close to 7.30 anyway then it's a great place to start

Being dozy after a nap can mean various things. It can mean she is well slept. Do you remember (possibly pre-kids!) having a long lie in and feeling even more tired when you woke up? Yawning for a while afterwards and feeling dopey?  This can come from extra sleep or being well rested so even a yawn at this point can mean she has had a good sleep rather than that she is still tired and needs to go back to sleep - it can be confusing!  This is where (for me at least) knowing when and how long my DS has slept is a great help, I could check the time and know where we were rather than always following cues which can be confusing.

She may well be a bit OT when you are establishing the routine. If it continues or gets worse you might need to rethink the routine to reduce the A time a bit, it's a guidance time so of course some LOs need less and some more.  Like I said before though, a bit of OT actually helps to establish routines.  And I often used illness/recovery times to get my DS into a routine change either because he slept longer because he was ill or because he was already not sleeping so it wasn't going to make it any worse.

Good luck - here if you have questions or need to hold a hand

[Twosweetgirls]

Thanks that helps!! She is having a hard time sleeping through a sleep cycle. She used to be so good at long sleeps. I've had to go in and put her back to sleep most naps and I can't get her to sleep longer than two cycles. I am only fully starting today but ive been doing to most of the naps leading up to today for 3-4 days. Any ideas?

[Martini~]

I am thinking if you are not expecting her to have to much day sleep. Expecting 3 long naps from a 5mo would be undoable with my ASN DS1, not to mention low sleep needs DS2:). Being honest for time being I would accept short naps and concentrate on 1 nap to be longer and two other to be short. It's a good way of transition to 2 naps. So let her sleep shortly on first nap let's say and than don't resettle. Do similar or slightly shorter A time after that and aim for second nap where you resettle until she has at least 1.5-2h. Than I would aim for another shorter nap. This routine enable you to have still A on shorter side of 2-2:15 but less daytime sleep. At that age 3-3.5h is in my opinion max you can expect. 4h maybe if she sleeps 10.5-11h nights.

[Twosweetgirls]

Thanks! I have been working with her and she is about 2-2h 20 min activity time (she finds it harder to go to sleep after that).  She is mostly sleeping well and easily during the day time.  The night time has gotten a bit better again but we seem stuck at a certain routine, so I am going to get help from the nighttime sleep board.  Thanks!! Just to clarify, should we be slowly adding activity time so that she's about 3 hours at 6 months?

[creations]

Just to clarify, should we be slowly adding activity time so that she's about 3 hours at 6 months?

Some people might slowly increase A times with age but personally I always waited on a routine that was working well until there were signs it was no longer suitable. Signs might be nap refusal or short napping (only these if they are normal going down easy, self soothing, good long naps) for more than one day.  Then I increased the A time.
some LOs need the lower end of guidance A times and some the higher end or even beyond the guidance times, some need the A times to be different through the day rather than all equal so I find it easier to respond to LOs needs and development rather than just adding time on because of the age if that makes sense. 

[Twosweetgirls]

ok. thanks for all the help!!