PU PD when does the screaming stop? Need some encouragement

[LaraAndrea]

I am in the early stages of reasserting my 5 month olds routine after some developmental milestones and accidental parenting derailed us.

I appreciate all of the advice/responses I have received thus far

I need some encouragement/support around PU PD (trying to extend short naps)

I am new to this technique and I have never been good with screaming/wailing babies.

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? If feel like it is one step forward and two steps back... Is this normal?

Emotionally drained

[becj86]

How long is the A time? Could be that needs increasing to expect a longer nap. Can you write out your EAS, please?

[creations]

Stopping by with a hug and a hand to hold after seeing your other posts too. x

If you are not comfortable with PUPD it is not the only option, some parents prefer to use shush/pat or an adapted shush/pat (eg firm hand, stroking, slight rock in the cot, key phrase, white noise) along with some gradual withdrawal.  Personally I couldn't have coped with PUPD although did use a somewhat adapted version for a transition from baby hammock to cot, my LO was already an independent sleeper but found the transition very hard and needed lots of support to make the move.  For all other routine changes, developmental mile stones etc I used an adapted shush/pat regardless of age - even now at 6yo my DS gets his head stroked if he is ill, in pain, or over stimulated and can't get to sleep, other times I use our key phrase and verbal reassurance from outside the room, it depends on the situation - all coming from those early days of sleep training and offering additional support when needed.
PUPD is not a no-cry method. None of the BW methods are "no cry" but shush/pat might be a better option for you if you find the crying particularly difficult to cope with - it is also okay to use something like ear plugs or headphones with some calming/favourite music playing for you to focus on. You can still hear baby but it dulls down the harshness of the screaming and so long as you are with baby supporting him he is not going to be affected by you listening to music to help you through.

As bec has said, if you post your EASY we can look at your routine times and see if a change of times is needed.

[LaraAndrea]

Up until 1.5 weeks ago (prior to rolling and unswaddling):
7:00 wake up BF
7:15 AT
9:00 sleep on own
10:45-11:00 wake BF
11:15 AT
1:00 sleep on own
2:30-3:00 wake BF
5:00 catnap (usually babbling and cooing most of nap)
5:45 wake BF
6:45-7:00 bedtime
10:30-11:00 dream feed
Wake b/w 4-5 BF
*Those were the days*

Now:
7:00 wake BF (may be already happily awake 30 min)
7:15 AT
9:15 sleep (10 min of modified shush/Pat and PU PD if wailing)
10:00 wake (sooth through transition... Works 1 in 3 times will sleep till 10:45.... Usually 45 min modified shush/Pat and PU PD)
10:45 BF
1:00 sleep (10-15min shush/Pat PU PD)
1:25 wake (try to soothe through transition will get another 20 min sleep)
2:30 BF
4:15 sleep (often goes down easy)
4:40 wake (unable to extend)
5:15 BF
6:15-6:30 bedtime
10:30 strangers
Wake 3:00-4:00 BF (sometimes will wake 1-2 times after rolling into awkward position)

[creations]

I think bec was right about needing a longer A time
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
at 5 months you can bring it up to 2hr 30 and see if it helps.

[LaraAndrea]

I think bec was right about needing a longer A time
Shush-pat - How to
at 5 months you can bring it up to 2hr 30 and see if it helps.

So did 2:30 AT this AM and had great nap!! 2h

I put her down after 2h for 2nd nap b/c she was getting really fussy and of course she was up rolling, blowing raspberries etc. By 45 min and did not make transition. She was not upset but done napping.

Is it OK to push her past that fussiness for longer AT?

 Or am I just silly to think I could get 2 good naps in a row after so many bad ones ?

Thanks!

[creations]

Sorry LaraAndrea, I just noticed I posted the wrong link for you in my previous message - I've corrected it now, a link to average A times by age.

So did 2:30 AT this AM and had great nap!! 2h

Wooohooo!! Wonderful!

You can push past the fussiness.  LOs get into the habit of having a nap at certain times and they can often start looking ready for a nap even when they are UT (under tired, not tired enough to transition and get a good nap).  you can distract her with another activity for the additional 30 mins.  Some people prefer to increase A times in smaller chunks of 15 mins per day or even every 3 days but you can also just go the whole 30.
Tired signs can also be confused with boredom signs at this age. Yawns and eye rubbing can mean LO wants to be moved to a different place or hold a different toy, confusing I know. You will probably start to recognise the difference between the boredom sign and the real tired sign although don't be hard on yourself if you don't - I often had to check the clock to know what my DS wanted!

Really glad you got a good nap today.  Just to let you know sometimes with A time increases the naps lengthen and then go short again - LOs can sometimes need another push a few days later but see how it goes.  Keep expectations low and enjoy the good times

[LaraAndrea]

Thanks for the support!

You speak the truth... I stuck with the 2.5h AT this AM after yesterday's success and low and behold another 45 min nap

I am glad she is so cute... This is maddening haha

Worst timing as we are off to visit family for 2 weeks

[creations]

Well, maybe with knowledge that she can sometimes do a longer nap when tired enough will help you know when to put her down even whilst away. Routines easily go off track when travelling but you can still try the tweaked times or evne a bit longer. I bet she iwll be more tired fromt eh extra stimulation but likely refuse sleep if she is having fun with everyone!

Enjoy your trip - we will be here when you return

[LaraAndrea]

So, I think I am comfortable with the PU PD technique when baby is crying. Is it still appropriate to use for nap extension when baby isn't crying, just awake?

If so, how is the technique utilized? I have always held her till she is calm and then PD for same amount of time...repeat

[LaraAndrea]

I did a little more digging into the archives and answered my own question

[creations]

No, if your LO is not crying you don't pick up.  You just let her lay there trying to self sooth until she either falls to sleep or starts crying.  Some LOs will lie awake for ages just starting or playing with their fingers etc and eventually they nod off again - others don't but you can't "do" anything to force her to sleep.

If you are getting naps shorter than they should be it could be UT or OT or LO not having learned to transition from one sleep cycle to the next either because she isn't self soothing or due to habit.
UT or OT need times looking at in your routine (eg as your LO approaches 6 months a 3hr A time would be the higher end of guidance times)
One method for habitual waking is W2S are you familiar with it?
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

I just saw that you posted again whilst I was typing - I will post anyway in case this is still useful to you.

[LaraAndrea]

We are working on the AT now we seem to be riding the waves of success.

Is a modified shush/touch appropriate to extend a short nap if baby is fussing. Or would you still recommend standing back to let baby self sooth.

I find she is usually awake and happy after 30min of sleep then progresses to fussy. Sometimes to crying (then I use PU PD)

[creations]

Is a modified shush/touch appropriate to extend a short nap if baby is fussing. Or would you still recommend standing back to let baby self sooth.

better to give her a chance to learn to self sooth but yes you can use shush/pat or adapted too - always reducing and the self soothing will come.
When mine was younger I knew if he did a mantra for more than a few mins he was going to need help. He was an independent sleeper already also Tracy said it takes 20 mins to fall to sleep (I could set a watch by that when he was a very young baby) and also that a baby doing a mantra cry should be left alone - but with my experience of my own DS I learned that a few mins of mantra and he should be asleep, if it got to 10 mins then I might as well go to him before he got to the point of crying out for me which he absolutely would if it went longer than that. I knew he could self sooth but also that if it went on for 10+mins there was a problem, teething or something, and it was better to catch him calmer and give an extra hand rather than let him get all upset and riled up.
Not a clear answer I know - it's your call